Ranger or Berzerker?

The_Pope · Post by **The_Pope** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:16 pm

Ahem.
My ranger/cleric was my main tank. He fought Firkraag, with the rest of my party standing away from the battle, and won.
Those dudes can get 3 slots in 2 weapon style. Now why would you want them to use missile weapons?! I'll take a good old Crom Faeyr - Flail of Ages combo anytime.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:28 pm

Originally posted by sigurd:
Ok, the biggest things that change them is ranger having insect plaque (iron skins are good too, butnot THAT good, there are other usefull spells), while berzerker get extra attacks (due to 3 in weap prof) and 1 better THAC0, as well as enrage. As i find this dualclass handtohand combat styled i would prefer the berzerker, you dont have to worry about mindspells in the mayor battles, and can kill most things fast anyway. The ranger can do the same, but can still be dominated and so on, humans have weak minds.

Well, if you want a defensive fighter pick ranger, but i want to run up to any enemy and kill it off fast, not cast spells, i let my companions do that. Mages cant do a lot anyway, not against PC with enrage.

GM only gives you an extra attack if you install the GM fix. What do you mean huma´ns have a weak mind. You berserker cleric still has to be human. Iron skin is very good. It will help you to cast spells when being attacked. That iss very useful.

------------------
Proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:36 pm

I've played quite a bit solo with both of these, so I'm looking at it from that perspective...

Sigurd: Not much. In fact, the Ring of Free action is overkill once you're Enraged. Also, the 2nd level proficienct, not 3rd gives the extra attack so unless you have the patch installed all you get with 5+ vs 2+ is +1/+1 and -1 speed factor. Iron skins are very nice because you can cast them, then take your time casting anything else without worrying about being disrupted. As I've said though, Enrage is very nice, with my R/C I find I'm giving up the attack for the Mindshield the Shield of Harmony gives...though +4 AC isn't too shabby either.

Cleric and Druid Spells I have used a lot not including the heals(this isn't really Ranger vs Berzerker, but I'll note the Druid only ones):

Level 1: Sanctuary (real fun with turn undead), Armor of Faith (x4 at high level = immune to damage for almost 20 rounds), Doom (occasionally)

Level 2: Draw Upon Holy Might, Hold Person, Silence, Find Traps (soloing), Flame Blade (first dungeon, trolls before FoA)

Level 3: Summon Insects (Druid Only), Animate Dead, Call Lightning (awesome outdoors, but in BG2 that basically means the Druid Grove)(Druid only)

Level 4: Call Woodland Beings (nice since they can Hold Monster and Mass Heal)(Druid Only), Death Ward, Lesser Restoration, would use Neg Plane Protection if not for the Amulet of Power. This level is usually where I have a lot of heals.

Level 5: Insect Plague (Since I use it primarily to dirupt spell casting, this is better than Creeping Doom due to double the duration)(Druid Only), Iron Skins (cast while being hit)(Druid Only), Righteous Magic (Draw Upon Holy Might + Kai)

Level 6: Heal, Fire Elemental (Druid Only) has seemed to work very well for me, but I'll have to test out Aerial Servant more.

Level 7: Earth Elemental, Finger of Death. I prefer Insect Plaque to Creeping Doom, but it's very good as well. Haven't had much luck with Gate and haven't really tested out a lot of the others here.

Looks like I line up pretty close to The_Pope on a lot of this.

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:31 pm

Bruce Lee, yes my berserker must be human, but with enrage he is immune to most mindspells.

Siike · Post by **Siike** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 3:33 am

Originally posted by The_Pope:
Ahem.
My ranger/cleric was my main tank. He fought Firkraag, with the rest of my party standing away from the battle, and won.
Those dudes can get 3 slots in 2 weapon style. Now why would you want them to use missile weapons?! I'll take a good old Crom Faeyr - Flail of Ages combo anytime.

True, but you didn't get my point. I like to have one pure fighter as my leading character in my party. Fighter's get 5+ and with Grand mastery-patch that gives additional 1/2 attack. As said, my main fighter gets 10 attacks (with imp. haste) which is enough, regardless what weapon you prefer. R/C gets only 3, 6 hasted. Surely, this would be enough too but 10 is allways better than 6. By the time I get my R/C hasted my fighter has already killed usually all enemies in most situations. Though, it's all about what the rest you party consists of.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 3:34 am

When will people learn that the world (real or fantasy) is not Black and White. There are many shades of Grey.

What is the point of an arguement? People argue because they have different opinions. I would never lie down and admit "yes sigurd, you're right, Berserkers are the tops and I've been wrong all my life about Rangers - a shall bend over and part my cheeks for you". I wouldn't be arguing othoerwise. So people continue to ignore any posts and simply re-state their views in the forlorn hope that the other guy will come around to their point of view.

No-one ever said Berserkers are cr*p. No-one ever said Rangers can't fight. If all a Ranger/cleric can do is "cast spells" then why should a berserker/cleric be any different?

They are both fighters. They simply have a small variation in their available skills.

Berserker can berserk and weapon mastery.
Ranger can stealth and has a racial enemy.

Biggest Ranger/Cleric bonus - priest & druid spells, berserker gets only priest. Why dual to cleric if you're not gonna cast the spells sigurd??

Also:
Ring of free action negates boots of speed.
+4 vs racial enemy (lets say in draconic or fell) would be a heck of an advantage over a berserker.

Opinions are like arseholes. They're big and release gas from time-to-time

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 3:38 am

And no more stinking caveats like "and with grand-mastery patch".

Jesus! Weapon mastery gives sh*te advantages - its not worth going beyond specialisation, unless you cheat (not "patch").

With "Ranger kills Beserker by staring at him patch" you're all so much dead meat to be fed to beggars and urchins.

The fact that you go to such lengths to justify your belief proves that you're wrong.

[This message has been edited by Gruntboy (edited 03-30-2001).]

The_Pope · Post by **The_Pope** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:09 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
Also:
Ring of free action negates boots of speed.

Not completely true. If you put on the Boots of Speed before the Ring of Free Action, you will be hasted.

Pe Ell · Post by **Pe Ell** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:29 am

Looks like you guys already have brought up everything so there isnt much for me to say. Other than I would go with the R/C. However it seems like you have forgotten to mention some nice spells like Bolt of glory and fire storm. Is nobody using those?

------------------
When there is no wrong, there can be no right.

When there is no darkness, there can be no light.

And when there is no evil, there can be no good.

~Just a few words of wisdom from a proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods

The_Pope · Post by **The_Pope** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:39 am

Originally posted by Pe Ell:
However it seems like you have forgotten to mention some nice spells like Bolt of glory and fire storm. Is nobody using those?

Nope. They suck.

Pe Ell · Post by **Pe Ell** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:44 am

Originally posted by The_Pope:
Nope. They suck.

They do NOT suck! How can you say something like that? I love using BoG agains demons and FS agains dragons. atleast you cannot disagree with me when I say that true seing and flame strike are great spells.

------------------
When there is no wrong, there can be no right.

When there is no darkness, there can be no light.

And when there is no evil, there can be no good.

~Just a few words of wisdom from a proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods[b\]

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:50 am

Purely arbitrary comments from the_poop, again.

I don't give a rats @$$ what order you put the boots on. Can you really be buggered to do that every time you save/load/move areas/take a leak?

Cheesey - like re-equiping staff of magi.

The_Pope · Post by **The_Pope** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:00 am

Originally posted by Pe Ell:
They do NOT suck! How can you say something like that? I love using BoG agains demons and FS agains dragons. atleast you cannot disagree with me when I say that true seing and flame strike are great spells.

Demons are wusses, whether or not you use Bolt of Glory. The reason I don't use Fire Storm is because it's level 7, and I prefer spending those slots on Creepin Doom. Now that's a great spell against dragons! No more Heal.
True Seeing is good, but it's Keldorn's job to cast that.

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
Purely arbitrary comments from the_poop, again.

I don't give a rats @$$ what order you put the boots on. Can you really be buggered to do that every time you save/load/move areas/take a leak?

Cheesey - like re-equiping staff of magi.

Hey, I never said I use them together. I think it's really annoying to put them on again each time you load. I just said that if you're hasted before you get Free Action, whether it's from a spell or item, you remain hasted.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with re-equippping the Staff of the Magi. The invisiblity is granted by wearing the Staff. So if you throw it away, and then pick it back up, you return to your invisible status.

------------------
The Pope, known in the Realms as Gabriel, is a Proud Member of the Brotherhood of the Woods

Manveru · Post by **Manveru** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:04 am

My humble opinion :

Bolt of glory really sucks, I used it some time but I realized that there are better spells on 6th level (aerial servants/fire elementals, wondrous recall, false down, I used also blade barrier)

And Fire Storm - it affects your party and your creatures as well, so it is the main disadvantage of this spell.

True sight - I use it very often (When I have Keldorn in the party I don't waste my slots for TS)

Flame strike - useful

------------------
Manveru Telkontar, a Proud Member of the Brotherhood of the Woods.

Elen sila Lumenn' Omentielvo

Pe Ell · Post by **Pe Ell** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:08 am

Creeping doom. Thats basicly insect plauge just that it is lvl 7. Forget that one and memerize some useful spells instead. Like fire storm, gate, symbol death and sunray.

------------------
When there is no wrong, there can be no right.

When there is no darkness, there can be no light.

And when there is no evil, there can be no good.

~Just a few words of wisdom from a proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:10 am

Middle of battle. Mage hits Balor with stick, invisibility lost.

Balor whips mage senseless with huge "Burning hellfire cat-o-nine-tails +18" (+60 points damage to mages). With his 30 attacks, Balor sinks "Axe of worthless man-human mortal disintegration" (save vs breath -10 or disintegrate) into mage's backside.

Mage disengages mangled near-death body from large axe and whip runs after stick and picks it up...

Nothing wrong with that at all.

[This message has been edited by Gruntboy (edited 03-30-2001).]

The_Pope · Post by **The_Pope** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:14 am

@Gruntboy: Of course, if you start talking about backstabbing, then you're right... duh... cheddar all the way!
Here's what I call cheesy: killing dragons with a Wand of Cloudkill. That's how I defeated Firkraag in my first game. Then I learned the definition of cheese.

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:29 am

Someone asked if i didnt use clerics to use spells. Well, i do.
Before i enter combat i cast draw upon holy might and similars (if a big battle), but when in battle i never cast, preferring to be a plain fighter then. And as a fighter the berzerker is better, being immune to magic with deathward and enrage, and the cloak. Yeah, the ranger can do this too, without enrage, and without the bonuses the berzerker has. So the ranger might cast spells better(at least has 1 or 2 good ones that berzerker can), but in plain combat the berzerker is better.

Dunno if rangers get the Con bonus of fighters (+5 perlevel instead of 2 at con 19)
but i think so

The_Pope · Post by **The_Pope** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:31 am

Originally posted by sigurd:
Dunno if rangers get the Con bonus of fighters (+5 perlevel instead of 2 at con 19)
but i think so

They do.

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:46 am

To take this one step further, which spells is so good that only druids have? I have found after research the only one worth having is insect plaque,iron skins are nice, but i rather have a masscure or raise dead there, as level 5 spells are limited, and masscure is used often.

Anyone says otherwise?
cal woodland beings is very good when low level as well, but later it isnt very good