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We really need a sticky for some of these

It might be nice to have a sticky topic for FAQs like
which side should I take in Chapter 3?
what's the best evil/ good/ neutral/ funny/ powergaming party?
What level should I dual class my [class 1] to [class 2] at?
Yadda yadda, yadda

The answers to most will be: Please yourself, but....(brief explanation of a few alternatives)

Just a thought...

When you side with Bodhi, the lawful good npc's will leave your party (Keldorn, Mazzy). There's ways around that, though.

Originally posted by VonDondu
Second of all, IMO, it is better from an ethical point of view to side with Bodhi, as long as you believe that the end justifies the means. If you're Lawful Good, forget it. I've made this argument many times before, but here's the gist of it. The Shadow Thieves are evil, period. The vampires are evil, period. If you side with Bodhi, you can kill the Shadow Thieves in Chapter Two and kill the vampires in Chapter Six. In other words, you can destroy both of them if you side with Bodhi. That is clearly the best choice.

Only the best choice if your party has a crystal ball, and can look at the conclusions of choices taken in chapter 2. If you're playing in RPG fashion, your party doesn't know what lies ahead, and so must decide between the known evil (shadow thieves, whose headquarters deliberately includes a torture chamber to let us all know these folks don't just talk a good game), and the unknown, smooth-talking one that involves the undead.

So the selection ultimately narrows down to, IMO: the evil that humans make, and the evil that is inhuman. Which is worse? As it happens, the dice are loaded. If the shadow thieves had been inclined towards betrayal--now, that might have made for an interesting, straight-on comparison.

You want RPG ? Throw a dice.
And take the opinions of your party members into account when meeting the employer.

Originally posted by fable
Only the best choice if your party has a crystal ball, and can look at the conclusions of choices taken in chapter 2. If you're playing in RPG fashion, your party doesn't know what lies ahead, and so must decide between the known evil (shadow thieves, whose headquarters deliberately includes a torture chamber to let us all know these folks don't just talk a good game), and the unknown, smooth-talking one that involves the undead.

So the selection ultimately narrows down to, IMO: the evil that humans make, and the evil that is inhuman. Which is worse? As it happens, the dice are loaded. If the shadow thieves had been inclined towards betrayal--now, that might have made for an interesting, straight-on comparison.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "the dice are loaded", but I could make the case that you should side with Bodhi based only on what you know before you join either group prior to Chapter Three.

As you say, you have to choose between the known evil--the Shadow Thieves--and the unknown evil--Bodhi and her vampire guild. What do you know about them prior to Chapter Three? Well, you know that people are afraid to walk the streets of Athkatla because of the Shadow Thieves. Through the course of dealing with Renal Bloodscalp and Maevar, you can tell that the Shadow Thieves steal, assassinate, torture, blackmail, smuggle, bribe, and kill defectors at will. (If you took over Maevar's guild, you would have the option of trading human slaves.) Renal doesn't care how Maevar runs his guild; Renal only cares if Maevar intends to betray him. There's no reason to assume that other guilds don't operate exactly the same way. You know that the Shadow Thieves are jerking you around and spying on you. They won't lift a finger to help you unless you cover yourself in blood and pay them cold, hard cash. So you know they're not your friends. For all you know, they might have helped Irenicus kidnap you and bring you to Amn. They want you to help them eliminate a rival guild. Why? So they can continue to steal, assassinate, torture, blackmail, smuggle, bribe, and kill anyone who crosses them without being disturbed or threatened. It's heartening to know that you agree they're evil. Helping them to thrive could hardly be the "good" path.

Now, what do you know about Bodhi prior to Chapter Three? Well, you can probably figure out that she's a vampire. And despite the smooth talk, you can probably tell she's evil. But what are her intentions? All you know is that she wants to destroy the Shadow Thieves. To your knowledge, she doesn't pose a threat to anyone else--at least not at the moment. You can either work for another evil organization which you know poses a threat to the rest of Amn, or you can help Bodhi destroy them. Her guild is the only credible threat to their survival. If you're Good, you might be interested in helping her rid the world of them simply as an end in itself. You don't know what else Bodhi has planned, but you can always kill her later if the need arises. What reason do you have to kill her now? Maybe you should bide your time and gather some more information about her before you judge her. Doing so would not compromise your own values, unless perhaps you're Lawful Good. On the other hand, killing her would strengthen the Shadow Thieves. Wouldn't that compromise your own values?

I have no idea what a Paladin is supposed to do. A Paladin would never work for vampires no matter what role they might play in some guild war, but a Paladin would not work for the Shadow Thieves, either. It's too bad that a Paladin can't enlist the help of the Order of the Radiant Heart and storm the walls of Spellhold to rescue the fair maiden. So much for roleplaying. Instead, you have to help an evil organization stay in business. Isn't that just great.

I hope I've made my case. You don't need a crystal ball to make the right choice.

The thing is, although you know the shadow thieves are evil, you also know they're human. Vampires are evil by nature, humans are evil by choice. Also, would you rather strengthen a human or a vampire? You are just as sure that those vampires are going to be as bad if not worse then the shadow thieves once the thieves are out of the way. Really it's an impossible decision, so we need to challenge a mod maker to give us a solution

You say that you can't know what Bhodi's plans are. I say it isn't extremely difficult to figure out. When you talk to her for the first time she says she wants to exterminate the Shadow Thieves - I seriously doubt it is to get rid of an evil organization. It is so she and her guild can take control and do the same thing as the shadow thieves (Except feed on the citizens of Amn as well).

Going back to the Shadow Thieves - You cannot know what their full intentions are. From everything I have seen in the game, they don't torture/assasinate/murder anyone outside of other unloyal shadow thieves. Even Mae'var tells you that you don't have to kill anyone when you are stealing things for him. Only one that wants you to kill anyone is Edwin, and that is for his personal reasons. You also make the point that the citizens of Amn are afraid to walk the streets because of Shadow Thieves. In fact, they are afraid because of the Guild War, which BHODI started. They are afraid because they see dead Shadow Thieves in the streets and don't know about the vampire threat.

Also, if you cast a know alignment spell on Aran Linvail, you will know he is of neutral alignment (NOT evil). Sure, they may not help you unless you pay, they aren't Paladins thats for sure, but they never give a reason to mistrust their word.

Bhodi, on the other hand tells you that if you join her you will have to, murder, torture, kill, terrorize etc. and even says that you will not know exactly what you have to do until you agree to join with her. Last I checked, good people dont agree to murder and terrorize, especially when they don't even have enough information to "justify the means" as you put it.

Adding fuels to the fire..

Eriks, that's just not so. The guy Mae'Var orders you to kill is not a traitor or disloyal. The murder of Rayic Gethras IS a Shadow Thieves task, whatever the reason, and even if you do in Mae'Var without proof or authorisation, Renal gets no more than mildly cheesed off. Once in charge of your own guildhouse, assasinations and slave dealing for fun & profit are valid options. Detect alignment? Puh-lease

In the guildwar choices, you are basically wiping out the other side whichever way you go - no innocents are involved at all. Neither side tells you the truth up front about what you'll be doing. The case that one option or the other is the lesser of two evils is a judgement call, and by no means a clear one, with or without prior knowledge of the later chapters.

You have to let one of these organisations survive untill you sail for Brynnlaw - after your return, you're free to wipe them both out.

There are some evil people within the Shadow Thieves, yes. But you do not have to work for them. You only have to work for Aran and he doesn't ask you to murder anyone last I checked. The murder of that Cowel Wizard IS NOT a Shadow Thief task either, it is an Edwin task. Edwin uses his position to make you do HIS (not the shadow theives's) dirty work.

Also, the fact that you have the OPTION to do bad things like slave trading and assasinations doesn't mean they do it.

But you agree to work for the Thieves, effectively securing or fortifying their position. That means you're enabling them to murder and steal.

i never smuggle slaves or assasinate. its just not right

Originally posted by Eriks
You say that you can't know what Bhodi's plans are. I say it isn't extremely difficult to figure out. When you talk to her for the first time she says she wants to exterminate the Shadow Thieves - I seriously doubt it is to get rid of an evil organization. It is so she and her guild can take control and do the same thing as the shadow thieves (Except feed on the citizens of Amn as well).

I don't mind if you disagree with me. In fact, I think it's great that you think for yourself and form your own opinions.

But I disagree with your assessment of Bodhi's plans, and I for one believe they ARE extremely difficult to figure out. Even in hindsight, I have trouble making sense of them. Suppose you eliminate the Shadow Thieves in Chapter Three. Subsequently, she tells you that she wants to find Irenicus as much as you do, and she takes you to Spellhold. She lets Irenicus give her Imoen's soul, then she tries to kill you on Irenicus's orders, and then leaves while you battle Irenicus. Later, when Irenicus catches up with her, they proceed to make a deal with the Drow, steal Adalon's eggs, and steal the Rhynn Lanthorn. Then they split up. Irenicus makes war on Suldanessellar, while Bodhi holes up in Athkatla. At what point does Bodhi do exactly what the Shadow Thieves had done? Never. I have to admit that her motivations and actions never really made all that much sense to me, but at no point did she ever seem interested in following in the footsteps of the Shadow Thieves. If you had predicted that she would do so back in Chapters Two and Three, you would have been wrong.

This is all just my opinion, of course. Feel free to disagree.

She lets you know she intends to "break that monopoly" of the Shadow Thieves. Just because she is busy screwing with you in the following chapters doesn't mean her Guild (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't exist anymore. They are still in Athkatla doing what they do best - praying on people in the night. And most likely, when she is done with you she will go back there and continue to lead them.

On another note, does anyone know where I can find some information on vampires and how they come to be in the forgotten realms? thanks

Originally posted by Antimatter
The thing is, although you know the shadow thieves are evil, you also know they're human. Vampires are evil by nature, humans are evil by choice. Also, would you rather strengthen a human or a vampire?

"Evil by nature vs. evil by choice" is an interesting comparison, and perhaps there's a valid distinction to be made. But I think it's important to avoid making decisions on the basis of prejudices (especially prejudices that we don't admit to ourselves), so we should question the assumption that a creature is "evil by nature".

Demons--sure, they're evil by nature. Most forms of undead--vampires included--sure, I suppose most of them are evil by nature, too. But what about lycanthropes? Shapeshifter Druids aren't considered evil by nature (though they aren't really Good by nature, either). And would you rule out the existence of exceptional members of any given species? For example, do you think it would be impossible for any vampire to be of Good alignment? I'm not suggesting that a vampire could ever be a Paladin or a Cleric of Lathander, but what about a vampire who has dedicated his life to killing other vampires (to fight his own curse), or one who has branched out into the adventuring business and fights evil wherever he goes? Suppose he kills the same monsters you do and in the same fashion. Could he be forgiven for feeding on their corpses when he got hungry? You yourself strip them of all their belongings and leave the bodies to rot, don't you?

Maybe that was a silly example, but prejudice is a serious issue. What about all of the Drow who have turned out to be Good, or at least different enough from other Drow to the point where they don't belong in Drow society? Is Viconia evil by nature? Is Solaufein? Is Drizzt? Should all Drow be exterminated, as fanatics and men like Keldorn would have you believe? Even Korgan goes on a genocidal killing spree in the Epilogue, although his reasons are a bit foggy to me. I suspect that most of us are so used to killing every "monster" we meet, we don't give it a second thought, which is why we're so confused when we meet an exception to the rule, like the Spectator Beholder or even Larry, Daryl, and Daryl. Then there are games like Planescape: Torment or IWD2 in which you're not expected to attack every "evil creature" on sight.

Prejudice takes other forms, you know. You've made the suggestion that evil acts performed by vampires are worse than evil acts performed by humans. What exactly is the difference? If a band of humans raids a village, is that any less horrible than a raid by hobgoblins? We make the assumption that it's not okay to hurt a human but it's okay to hurt a hobgoblin. So it's okay for a hobgoblin (or a human) to hurt another hobgoblin, but it's not okay for a hobgoblin (or a human) to hurt a human. This is all about prejudice and putting a greater value on one species than we put on another. Perhaps it can be justified, but we should at least be aware of the distinctions we make and exactly why we make them. "They're not human" is not a good reason in itself.

Originally posted by VonDondu
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "the dice are loaded",

I mean that having played through at least once, the regular recommendation on these boards (with few exceptions) has been for newbies to side with the Thieves. You'll be betrayed if you don't. The developers of BG2 thus loaded the dice in advance in favor of the ST, and quite a few people--sadly, IMO--want to play the first time through via a walkthrough, instead of simply enjoying the open, unknown, vast experience that is the game. They'll never know the wonderful ambivalence of weighing the points to either side of the issue.

I suggest that if the Shadow Thieves had been into betrayal of your group as much as Bodhi, with assistance coming from an unexpected third source that was out of your control, the whole Bodhi vs the ST argument would take on an entirely different dimension, divorced from gameplay issues.

Let's say that we decide act as though we were playing BG2 for the first time, and deal with the choice of paths minus knowledge of their results. Can anybody here reproduce the exact advice that every party member gives, after Bodhi says her piece? I'm curious whether, as von Dondu suggests, there is simply prejudice and mendacity in their varied responses, or whether we also find a true sensing of something much darker than the Shadow Thieves.

Here are most of the dialogues.

On meeting Bodhi (before making your decision):

KELDORN: "Beware, <CHARNAME>! I sense much that is unnatural and evil within this creature! Do not parley with her... it will lead only to ill!"

MAZZY: "There is something unnatural about this... this 'Bodhi'. I do not trust her, <CHARNAME>. Everything about this place feels evil and wrong."

JAHEIRA: "This is a dark place to meet this woman, <CHARNAME>, and I sense an unnaturalness about her that is disturbing to me. Step carefully."

ANOMEN: "Be wary, my friend. This creature is one of darkness... if you intend to deal with her, do so cautiously. I will prepare to call on Helm should signs of treachery arise."


On listening to her offer to take you to Spellhold in exchange for your service and the low, low price of 15,000 gold pieces:

KELDORN: "Do not deal with this creature, <CHARNAME>. If you do, I will not be a party to it. This is all I will say on the matter."

MAZZY: "I urge you not to accept this offer, my friend. This feels more and more wrong the longer I remain in this place... I could not abide working for such a being as this."

ANOMEN: "A strange deal... and yet it would save us much effort, no? It has, however, the feel of a deal with a devil. It would be good, however, to turn the table on those vile thieves."

KORGAN: "Hah! An excellent deal, to save so much gold! Seize the opportunity, <CHARNAME>, lest the fickle woman change her mind!"

YOSHIMO: "Perhaps... perhaps this is not a bad idea. We would save much coin and achieve the same goal, it seems. Although... it would be certain to make enemies of the Shadow Thieves..."

JAHEIRA: "How does she know of our link to the Shadow Thieves? And what would they think of this meeting? Be careful, <CHARNAME>, our lives may hang in the balance."

MINSC: "Such an offer from this woman sends chills up and down my spine like angry weasels... but <CHARNAME> will know what to do. Even Boo is confident of this."

VALYGAR: "I can't say I'm very comfortable with the idea of dealing with this... woman. This place reeks of the undead and worse. Do as you will, though... I will follow, for now."

AERIE: "I... I don't know if this is such a good idea, <CHARNAME>. I'm... I feel frightened, all of a sudden. Maybe we should just leave..."


After making the decision to work for Bodhi:

KELDORN: "You have made your decision, I see. I will not consort with evil, <CHARNAME>, nor with those who would do so. Farewell."

MAZZY: "I cannot, in good conscience, remain with a group who has chosen to take such a route. I shall pray for your soul, <CHARNAME>. I... do not think we shall meet again."


On being given Bodhi's first assignment:

JAN: "Well, that wasn't so bad, now. After all that, I had thought we were going to be sent to steal candies from young children and step on the toes of old grandmothers. To think I nearly peed myself for absolutely no reason..."

AERIE: "Is that... all we have to do? Oh, I'm so relieved! Still, <CHARNAME>, I wonder if this is only the beginning. Who is this woman, really? And why is she doing all these things?"

NALIA: "Well, this isn't too bad. The way all my hairs are standing up, I would have expected us to be sent to do something much worse. Let's just... get this over with."

EDWIN: "Is this all that we are to be used for, now? Some minor errand? Ah, yes, what a blow it shall be against the Shadow Thieves! Bah! Let us get this over with!"


On choosing between a questionable assignment and heroic assignment:

MINSC: "It is an option that bears no questioning! <CHARNAME> is a champion of good, just as we all are! Always must we take the choice of righteousness!"

VALYGAR: "I doubt I'd want to see what Bodhi's idea of a questionable assignment would be, <CHARNAME>. Of course, I doubt her 'heroic' assignment will be much more palatable."

AERIE: "I... I don't want to do anything really terrible. Especially not for her, not for any reason. Let's just... stick to something less objectionable, okay?"

VICONIA: "Is this a challenge, I wonder? Take the darker path, <CHARNAME>... show this creature you will not shrink from a deed that needs to be done."

KORGAN: "Ahhhr, the first path sounds the better to me. I have a hankering for blood that shan't be satisfied by nilly-nallying about with morals and such."


If you choose the heroic path:

MINSC: "This is more like it! A rescue from the hostage-takers! All shall quiver in the wake of our righteous fury! Yes, Boo, show them how they will quiver!"

AERIE: "Well... this isn't too bad, I guess. At least we're rescuing someone."


If you choose the path of skullduggery:

MINSC: "No! Tell me this is not so! No heroes would commit such an act! <CHARNAME>, I could never look Boo in the eyes again if I took part in such a thing!"

VALYGAR: "I will not stoop to this kind of murder, <CHARNAME>, no matter what you've done for me. If this woman can't give us something else to do, I will be leaving." [NOTE: He doesn't leave.]

AERIE: "What? Kill someone? Murder them outright? You... you don't actually intend to go through with that, do you, <CHARNAME>? It sounds so... so grisly."


On the mission to assassinate Aran Linvail:

NALIA: "So this is what we've been aiming for all along? Unbelievable! How... how are we supposed to do this? The Shadowmaster has a horde of assassins at his call!"

YOSHIMO: "Kill... Aran Linvail? The Shadowmaster of the entire Shadow Thieves guild? How... are you mad, woman?"

JAN: "Kill the big man, eh? Ahhh, this takes me back. Uncle Scratchy led the assault on King Goobar's tower himself, you know. Of course, Goobar wasn't really a King. And calling a horde of angry old gnomes bitter about the pipe shortage and muttering to themselves with torches an assault is something of a stretch, too, but you get the idea. If it hadn't been for Goobar's quick thinking, things could really have gotten messy. Still, there were bubbles everywhere for weeks... so I suppose it was messy enough anyway."

(later) YOSHIMO: "Killing the Shadowmaster... if we succeed, it will be a feat of no small note, <CHARNAME>. Still, though, people have tried it in the past and come nowhere near succeeding."

EDWIN: "So, we're off to kill the Shadowmaster, one of the most powerful men in this city? It might be interesting. Just do not screw it up, <CHARNAME>!"

MINSC: "We will charge into the midst of the den of thieves and fling them about like pancakes! All that is glory shall be ours! And then breakfast."

And now, here are my comments.

First of all, you'll notice that none of the NPCs objects to killing Shadow Thieves on moral grounds. Keldorn and Mazzy are opposed to consorting with a creature of evil, but that's not the same thing. Two Neutral NPCs are afraid of angering the Shadow Thieves out of fear, but that's not the same thing, either. Anomen and Minsc are clearly in favor of smacking down the thieves. Yoshimo and Edwin are in favor of it as long as you succeed. Jaheira, Aerie, and Nalia are simply afraid of what's to come.

Second of all, you'll notice that most of the NPCs will follow the PC no matter what you decide to do. Minsc says he trusts the PC's judgment, which recalls what happens if you kill Valygar for the Cowled Wizards: Minsc and Aerie don't feel right about it, but they put blind faith in the PC and help you kill Valygar, anyway. In this case, though, Aerie has a keen stroke of foresight: "I wonder if this is only the beginning. Who is this woman, really? And why is she doing all these things?"

Furthermore, other than assassinating the merchant, none of the deeds that Bodhi asks you to perform are objectionable to any of the NPCs on moral grounds. Some of them fear the danger, but that's not the same thing. You get the feeling that most of them would rather not be working for Bodhi just because she makes them feel uncomfortable, but that's not the same thing, either.

And finally, Jan and Minsc always crack me up.

First time trhrough

I sided with Bodhi the first time, mostly because tthe Shadow thieves looked really iffy to me. It's worth noting that the Shadow thieve's headquarters is, IMAO, a much more interesting fight than Bodhi's lair.

Originally posted by VonDondu
And now, here are my comments.

First of all, you'll notice that none of the NPCs objects to killing Shadow Thieves on moral grounds. Keldorn and Mazzy are opposed to consorting with a creature of evil, but that's not the same thing.

My impression is that if you arbitrarily kill several Shadow Thieves without first accepting any of the quests to do so, your reputation suffers, and Keldorn, Aerie, Anomen, Minsc and Mazzy ultimately leave. I suspect they're leaving not because people think less of you, but because reputation is one index of moral character in the game (and their comments upon leaving due to reputation bear this out). That being the case, it seems logical to assume Keldorn, Mazzy, and other "good" party members really do look askance at any death meted out to the Shadow Thieves without the proper motivation. In other words, their evil isn't inherent, as it is with Bodhi, but conditional.

That said, I love the diversity of party responses--thanks for reproducing them. It's one of the main reasons I still enjoy the game, and a source of puzzlement why other products that have tried so diligently to reproduce the style of BG2 do little if anything to create such vibrant personalities.