Chpt. 5 and Anti-Mage Tactics *plot spoilers*

Thufir Hawat · Post by **Thufir Hawat** » Wed May 21, 2003 1:31 pm

Originally posted by UncleScratchy
If you haven't ever kicked her out of the party before you can load her up with all kinds of drow stuff and then kick her out. She will return to the docks area next to the entrance to the Harper hold and the drow stuff won't disintegrate. Just don't take the drow stuff back to the area where you exit the Underdark as it will then disintegrate. Apparently the game checks for any drow equipment when you are in that area and that's when it disintegrates.

Also, another way to get some drow equipment is with one of the mage familiars. I believe the one of the neutral mages summons a ferret familiar which is capapble of pick pockets. You pick pocket a drow for their items (although the ferret can only hold two), and have the ferret take them out of the underdark. Because the game does not run checks on the ferret's inventory, you get the drow items! This also works for the rift device, and basically any other item which the game runs checks on to destroy.

UncleScratchy · Post by **UncleScratchy** » Wed May 21, 2003 2:31 pm

Originally posted by Leonardo
Yes it is. It is a plain scimitar +2 (or would it be +3?).

Oops! Me bad. When I first checked in SK with a name match filter I got no hits. Based on your input I checked out all the scimitars and found it. Although I do have a few mods loaded up so it could be from one of those as well. Here's its description and stats:

Scimitar +3: 'Water's Edge'
The blade of this weapon seems to shimmer, revealing a fluid, razor edge. Truly there was great skill involved in its construction, as well as a blessing or two from some well-meaning eye above, even though the hilt is comparatively almost clumsily adorned.

STATISTICS:

Damage: 1D8 +3
THAC0: +3
Damage type: slashing
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 4
Proficiency Type: Scimitar/Wakizashi/Ninja-To
Type: 1-handed
Requires: 8 Strength
Not Usable By:
Cleric
Mage
Thief

I can't remember ever finding it before. I didn't see it in Dan Simpson's BG2 walkthru either which has a pretty thorough list of attainable items. That tells me that its not really found in the game, and is only available by hacking it in. Anyone who's ever played around with GK or SK knows there are a number of items that were created by the developers that are possible in the game but were never put in (like the Helm of Opposite Alignment in BG1). Do you know where it is or how to get it without hacking it?

Originally posted by Thufir Hawat
Also, another way to get some drow equipment is with one of the mage familiars. I believe the one of the neutral mages summons a ferret familiar which is capapble of pick pockets. You pick pocket a drow for their items (although the ferret can only hold two), and have the ferret take them out of the underdark. Because the game does not run checks on the ferret's inventory, you get the drow items! This also works for the rift device, and basically any other item which the game runs checks on to destroy.

Cool. I might try that. I've given my dualed berserker/thief a familiar using the potion/scroll switch routine so it might be worth a try. I've got the stupid rabbit familiar and can't remember if it has any decent pickpocketing skills. I wonder if familiars can drink potions of master thievery?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed May 21, 2003 3:05 pm

Uncle Scratchy, Water's Edge can be found in the House of Jae'llat in Ust'Natha. Getting inside the house requires a wardstone; it's part of quest. I suppose it can be overlooked if you don't loot the place thoroughly. In the past, I've hacked in my own Belm +3, because there weren't enough good scimitars in BG2 until Throne of Bhaal came along.

As for the Demon Lord, you are correct: to get Blackmist, you have to give the him Adalon's eggs. You can only do it if your character is Evil. If you ask for a magic item or a way out of the Underdark, he will grant it to you in exchange for the eggs. If you ask for great wealth or great power, he will kill you instantly for being so dumb.

To get him to fight you (without killing you instantly), you have to put Adalon's eggs at risk. You have to let Phaere offer the real eggs to the Demon Lord and then stop her before he takes them. He'll get angry and attack everyone (without killing everyone instantly), which gives you a chance to kill him.

UncleScratchy · Post by **UncleScratchy** » Wed May 21, 2003 5:34 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
Uncle Scratchy, Water's Edge can be found in the House of Jae'llat in Ust'Natha. Getting inside the house requires a wardstone; it's part of quest. I suppose it can be overlooked if you don't loot the place thoroughly. In the past, I've hacked in my own Belm +3, because there weren't enough good scimitars in BG2 until Throne of Bhaal came along.

I always clean out Jae'llat's place, maybe I just missed it or sold it (I had Jaheira using clubs in the last game she was in). Can't figure out why it's not mention in Dan Simpson's walkthru though. This is all he says about it in his walkthru:

This is, of course, a fairly large battle against many Drow
warriors and priestesses. It just wouldn't be a Drow House
without those elements. Each Jae'llat Guard is worth 6000
experience. This is the first battle, there is another one when
you go over to the right. This battle has Hindra Jae'llat in it
(14,000 experience) as well as Istar Jae'llat (16,000 experience).
Then search the place for treasure:

2500 Gold
And a LOT of Gems (about 50)

As for the Demon Lord, you are correct: to get Blackmist, you have to give the him Adalon's eggs. You can only do it if your character is Evil. If you ask for a magic item or a way out of the Underdark, he will grant it to you in exchange for the eggs. If you ask for great wealth or great power, he will kill you instantly for being so dumb.

To get him to fight you (without killing you instantly), you have to put Adalon's eggs at risk. You have to let Phaere offer the real eggs to the Demon Lord and then stop her before he takes them. He'll get angry and attack everyone (without killing everyone instantly), which gives you a chance to kill him.

Hmm, I've never tried that. Do you still get the halberd if you kill him?

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Wed May 21, 2003 5:43 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
To get him to fight you (without killing you instantly), you have to put Adalon's eggs at risk. You have to let Phaere offer the real eggs to the Demon Lord and then stop her before he takes them. He'll get angry and attack everyone (without killing everyone instantly), which gives you a chance to kill him.

This doesn't seem cheesy or flaky to me. Do you mean because you have to risk the eggs? But surely this fight would be the only way to save them if you hadn't been nice to Soulaufein? And since Adalon specifically tells you to act like a drow, I can see this being a reasonable option. Not that I've ever tried it...

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Wed May 21, 2003 9:11 pm

An apology

Originally posted by VonDondu
That's no way to talk to Uncle Scratchy. (Dwarves and gnomes. Sigh.)

But anyway, if you're interested in rare items, have you ever gotten Blackmist +4 (a halberd) from the demon lord? If you've been playing a Paladin, I don't see why you would have. I always try to kill the demon lord, but trying to follow the conversation path that lets you do it requires cheesiness (or flakiness), in my opinion.

Well why do you think dwarves just about always get the stinkin' Cha penalty?

I didn't intend any heartlessness on any level. *grumbles, skips a pebble in a nearby river*

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed May 21, 2003 11:36 pm

Originally posted by UncleScratchy
Hmm, I've never tried that. Do you still get the halberd if you kill him?

Unfortunately, no. It's not on the Demon Lord's corpse; you can only get it if you're evil and you make a deal with him. I guess he summons it.

Originally posted by JackOfClubs
This doesn't seem cheesy or flaky to me. Do you mean because you have to risk the eggs? But surely this fight would be the only way to save them if you hadn't been nice to Soulaufein? And since Adalon specifically tells you to act like a drow, I can see this being a reasonable option. Not that I've ever tried it...

The reason I say it's cheesy is because it involves meta-gaming (using strategies based on information a character in the game could not possibly have). If Solaufein has given you the fake eggs to give to Phaere, why would you give her the real ones? If it's only because you know in advance that letting her offer the real eggs to the Demon Lord is the only way to fight him without getting killed instantly, that's meta-gaming, and it might be considered cheesy. And whether you accept the fake eggs from Solaufein or not, if you willingly give the real eggs to Phaere and then stop her from giving them to the Demon Lord, that's a bit flaky, in my opinion. If you don't want Phaere to give the eggs to the Demon Lord, then it's flaky not to accept Solaufein's offer.

Adalon didn't tell you to let a Drow offer her eggs to a demon. She even sent an imp to remind you to return them to her once you got them.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Thu May 22, 2003 1:28 am

Originally posted by VonDondu
The reason I say it's cheesy is because it involves meta-gaming (using strategies based on information a character in the game could not possibly have). If Solaufein has given you the fake eggs to give to Phaere, why would you give her the real ones? If it's only because you know in advance that letting her offer the real eggs to the Demon Lord is the only way to fight him without getting killed instantly, that's meta-gaming, and it might be considered cheesy. And whether you accept the fake eggs from Solaufein or not, if you willingly give the real eggs to Phaere and then stop her from giving them to the Demon Lord, that's a bit flaky, in my opinion. If you don't want Phaere to give the eggs to the Demon Lord, then it's flaky not to accept Solaufein's offer. Adalon didn't tell you to let a Drow offer her eggs to a demon. She even sent an imp to remind you to return them to her once you got them.

Not killing Sola as requested is possibly meta gaming too then...if the safety of the eggs is your first concern (ie not being uncovered as surfacers), obeying drow commands at any cost till you're in a position to snatch the eggs would be the safest course of action.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu May 22, 2003 2:17 am

I don't think it's necessarily meta-gaming if you choose not to kill Solaufein, or disobey other orders or fail to act 100% like a Drow. You can disobey direct orders and allow the Svirfneblin patrol to live; you can murder members of at least two different Houses in Ust'Natha; you can free slaves; you can release a genie from torment; you can perform charitable acts outside Ust'Natha even while in Drow form; you can lie to various Drow; you can refuse to sleep with Phaere; and you can generally do just the bare minimum required to accomplish your mission. That's not meta-gaming; that's staying in character and making choices. I didn't want to do everything Phaere ordered me to do even when I didn't know what was going to happen, so when the conversation option allowed me to talk candidly to Solaufein, I took advantage of it. It was purely in character.

Now, if I made the same decision because I had read about what would happen in a walkthrough before I played the game, then I agree that it would indeed be meta-gaming and not roleplaying.

Straydog · Post by **Straydog** » Thu May 22, 2003 1:48 pm

Uncle, are you sure the drow weapons ruse does not work for others, for example with Mazzy, sending her to Trademeet, and picking her then?

Oops....seems I got the answer already. Disregard previous question.

Straydog · Post by **Straydog** » Thu May 22, 2003 1:57 pm

Waters Edge is loot when you blunder House Jhaellat (or something). Uncle, are you sure the drow weapons ruse does not work for others, for example with Mazzy, sending her to Trademeet, and picking her then?

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Fri May 23, 2003 8:48 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
I don't think it's necessarily meta-gaming if you choose not to kill Solaufein, or disobey other orders or fail to act 100% like a Drow. You can disobey direct orders and allow the Svirfneblin patrol to live; you can murder members of at least two different Houses in Ust'Natha; you can free slaves; you can release a genie from torment; you can perform charitable acts outside Ust'Natha even while in Drow form; you can lie to various Drow; you can refuse to sleep with Phaere; and you can generally do just the bare minimum required to accomplish your mission. That's not meta-gaming; that's staying in character and making choices. I didn't want to do everything Phaere ordered me to do even when I didn't know what was going to happen, so when the conversation option allowed me to talk candidly to Solaufein, I took advantage of it. It was purely in character.

Now, if I made the same decision because I had read about what would happen in a walkthrough before I played the game, then I agree that it would indeed be meta-gaming and not roleplaying.

I agree that it is not meta-gaming to talk candidly to Soulaufein, but I can see killing him as a reasonable role-playing response, even for a good party (or at least a neutral one). The dialogue option allows you to do confide in him, but surely there is plenty of reason to distrust any Drow with such an important sectret? And, earlier, there is no evidence that breaking character and apologizing for getting him in trouble with the handmaiden will be well received. I don't think you get the later option without apologizing first, do you?

So, you could reasonably argue that assassinating him at Phaere's behest is mere self-preservation in the worthy cause of recovering the Dragon's eggs. And since you can't get out without handing them over to Phaere, it seems reasonable to go along with her plan and try to fight it out as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

I've always regretted having to double-cross Phaere. I secretly wish there was a way to save her and maybe restore her romance with Soulaufein, but I guess that would be pushing credibility.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat May 24, 2003 1:40 am

Originally posted by JackOfClubs
I agree that it is not meta-gaming to talk candidly to Solaufein, but I can see killing him as a reasonable role-playing response, even for a good party (or at least a neutral one). The dialogue option allows you to do confide in him, but surely there is plenty of reason to distrust any Drow with such an important sectret? And, earlier, there is no evidence that breaking character and apologizing for getting him in trouble with the handmaiden will be well received. I don't think you get the later option without apologizing first, do you?

So, you could reasonably argue that assassinating him at Phaere's behest is mere self-preservation in the worthy cause of recovering the Dragon's eggs. And since you can't get out without handing them over to Phaere, it seems reasonable to go along with her plan and try to fight it out as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

I agree with all of the above. I was simply trying to make the case that allowing Solaufein to live is not necessarily meta-gaming in response to kopywrite, who said, "Not killing Sola as requested is possibly meta gaming too then."

Originally posted by JackOfClubs
I've always regretted having to double-cross Phaere. I secretly wish there was a way to save her and maybe restore her romance with Solaufein, but I guess that would be pushing credibility.

I don't know. Unlike Solaufein, I think she's genuinely evil, and she's very ambitious. The tentacle rods probably did what they were supposed to do, and I doubt that she could ever love Solaufein again. As Solaufein says, his existence reminds her of her former weakness, and she resents him for it. The fact that she commands you to kill him proves that she is irredeemable, at least in my book.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Tue May 27, 2003 2:10 pm

Agreed. But she does seem a little sad when she says "All love is foolish" after you bring back the cloak. But, of course, she recovers all too quickly. I just have a hard time dismissing people as utterly hopeless.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed May 28, 2003 3:24 am

I classify that as an evil act. Planning Phaere's death I mean.
First, as JackOfClubs said, there's room for pity... though not redemption probably.
Yet "Bioware's Good Path" involves treachery and a precise plan aimed at the sole purpose of obtaining Phaere's DEATH.
If not evil, at the very least this *isn't* a good act. But I'd say it's evil.
And very unmerciful, considering also all that she had to suffer for her loving.
After playing lazily through the sequence many times, I've decided to change my course of action here.

I don't like Bioware interpretation of "goodness" in this circumstance, as I never liked Imoen's comment on Phaere's death. Is that Imoen?
My next goody char will receive the fake eggs, but will decide not to use them.
Instead he'll/she'll try to break the ritual before it's too late... of course I suppose you can only fail and end in a battle, but at least you have not planned anyone's assassination.

Another thing I never liked is the fact that I cannot help the "hunted" elven lady, other than givin' misinformation to her torturers!

The average hero in BG2 accomplishes DOZENS of goody and heroic missions, and tries *nothing* to save that woman

?

P.S: BTW Uncle, what happened to your post count

?

EDIT: hmmm, there's still the Matron though... they're not leaving us many chances it seems...

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:02 am

Now, about Solafein...

I highly doubt this, but does the official SoA/ToB patch add him as a recruitable NPC, or does one of the mods do that EXCLUSIVELY? It's just that the dialogue with him in Ust Natha when you try to get his piwafwi (sp?) cloak, he mentions his secret worship of Ellistrae. It sounds somewhat familiar, and somewhat not to when I last got that far in the game a couple years ago. The reason I'm asking this is to fathom all of the changes the patch did to the game.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:01 pm

Re: Now, about Solafein...

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
I highly doubt this, but does the official SoA/ToB patch add him as a recruitable NPC, or does one of the mods do that EXCLUSIVELY? It's just that the dialogue with him in Ust Natha when you try to get his piwafwi (sp?) cloak, he mentions his secret worship of Ellistrae. It sounds somewhat familiar, and somewhat not to when I last got that far in the game a couple years ago. The reason I'm asking this is to fathom all of the changes the patch did to the game.

In the official game Solaufein makes no reference to Eilistraee. It's part of the Sola mod, by W. Weimer, who made Solaufein an available NPC to join your party.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:05 pm

Originally posted by Littiz

Another thing I never liked is the fact that I cannot help the "hunted" elven lady, other than givin' misinformation to her torturers! The average hero in BG2 accomplishes DOZENS of goody and heroic missions, and tries *nothing* to save that woman ?

Maybe it's time you created your own "Save the Lady" mini-mod.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:41 pm

Re: Re: Now, about Solafein...

Originally posted by Aubrey
In the official game Solaufein makes no reference to Eilistraee. It's part of the Sola mod, by W. Weimer, who made Solaufein an available NPC to join your party.

Well then, what is included in that? I thought I heard the acid katana was a part of the mod. In that case, that didn't happen, so Solafein may not be available.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:47 pm

Re: Re: Now, about Solafein...

Originally posted by Aubrey
In the official game Solaufein makes no reference to Eilistraee. It's part of the Sola mod, by W. Weimer, who made Solaufein an available NPC to join your party.

Not so. I've never played the Soulaufein mod and I always get the dialogue that he worships Elistraee rather than Lolth. Then later when he says good bye, he mentions that perhaps he will meet you again under the light of her moon, or something to that effect.

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Chpt. 5 and Anti-Mage Tactics plot spoilers