kids or no?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:48 pm

@Nael,
I wish more people were as honest with themselves (and others) as you are on this subject. There are far too many individuals out there who have children because they feel they should, but in reality are unsuited for parenthood.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:30 am

Originally posted by nael
So, how does everyone feel about having brats? Personally, I have absolutely no desire to have kids, and really resent people that bring their kids in public.

Ok, I used to agree with that, but now I have worked as an au pair, I have a little more sympathy for the parents who have to take the kids out in public.

I really didn't like having to take the girls (two and four years old) out in public, especially in the city. Fortunately, I didn't have to do it that often. For a start, people always assumed they were mine!

And yes, quite often they were a pain in the arse. I recall one two-year-old tantrum in the supermarket... could have killed her.

However, kids are never going to learn to behave in public if they're locked away until they hit 18, are they?

I answered on the poll that I don't want kids, because that's what comes closest to my thoughts... I definitely don't want kids now, but who can say in the distant future, if I meet a nice man (that mythical creature...

), etc etc. At the end of the day, I'm not all that bothered either way though, it's more of the "if it happens, it happens" situation. I mean, I have friends who have planned out their whole life - married by 25, two kids by 30, etc - and I don't really like the idea of setting limits on something like that, when you have no idea what's going to happen to you. I'm not going to feel like a failure if I'm unmarried with no kids when I'm 30. Kids are definitely not the ultimate aim of my life.

my dog as a puppy was light years ahead of a baby the same age.

Hmmm. Shouldn't you take into account the difference between a dog's lifespan and a human one? I've just been looking up 'dog years', and this website reckons on 10.5 dog years per human year for the first 2 years, then 4 dog years per human year for each year after. So a one year old puppy isn't at the same developmental stage as a one year old baby, but a 10 year old kid. In most cases

I think the kid would be smarter.

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:27 am

Re: Re: kids or no?

Originally posted by Georgi
Hmmm. Shouldn't you take into account the difference between a dog's lifespan and a human one? I've just been looking up 'dog years', and this website reckons on 10.5 dog years per human year for the first 2 years, then 4 dog years per human year for each year after. So a one year old puppy isn't at the same developmental stage as a one year old baby, but a 10 year old kid. In most cases I think the kid would be smarter.

Touché

and despite everytyhing i have said, i don't want anyoen to get the impression that i would shirk my responsibilities if by chance it happened that i fathered a child.

how many of ya'll, think you should probably not have kids based on genetic disposition? meaning everything from alcoholism to huntington's disease.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:33 am

I like kids. I really do. I just don't like the people they become when they grow up.

But seriously, this is a really loaded question, and I'm not sure how many people realize how loaded it really is. You can put me in the category "likes kids but can't have them and is happy enough without them". Philosophically, I think it's wrong to bring children into the world without their consent (how could they possibly give it?), but pragmatically, I think it's a "good thing" that people have kids (although I really do think there are too many people in the world). I can think of lots of other issues, but I'll stop there.

BTW, please don't tell me that I should adopt kids. I'm not married, and I don't believe in single parents raising kids.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:32 pm

Noone gets a choice as to whether they are born or not, and into which circumstances, so I don't see that this could be an issue per se. The only way to bring a child into the world is without their consent, but what I see as an issue is when two people bring a child into the world irresponsibly - and I do not mean in respect of only the conception, but also without giving due regard to the fact they have now a major compromise to make in order to ensure that said child achieves a balanced and happy upbringing.

Anyone who would presume anyone else's life is incomplete without a child is blinkered to the fact that it is quite achievable to lead a happy and fulfilled life without having had a child. Thankfully we are now beyond the age of a thirty plus woman being questioned about her "biological clock" since it is not unusual now to exercise the choice, or indeed to accept circumstances for what they are.

I chose, and was blessed, to have two healthy kids, but I would be lying if I said I have savoured every moment. It is the hardest job I have ever had to do personally, there have been times that I have despaired, that I have wondered have I done the right thing - and that is in respect of becoming a mother in the first place, as well as having dealt with a particular situation that was new to me and being unsure as to if I had handled it right. I had no true role models, all I know was that I wanted to try and break a mould and do a better job of parenting than my parents did.

Regarding taking kids out in public; well how else do you expect to socialise them?

I am and always have been strict in respect of manners and public behaviour, and it has not been unknown for me to pick up a creating child and march them home, cutting all other intentions of shopping/eating/socialising short.

In my experience, the UK is not very tolerant at all with children. People in bars or restaurants mutter and cast sidelong glances if your child is in a public place after 9pm - even if they are behaving! On the Meditteranean, and indeed with my recent experience in Mexico, they are much more tolerant, and kids are actually catered for as special individuals, they are made to feel welcome at restaurants etc, and I tell you what! My kids responded with much more mature and acceptable behaviour when waited on especially

Not that my kids are often misbehaving in public, they were taught the unwritten rules young, but it would have been a much easier job had public places been more accepting at a younger age

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:53 pm

It's all a matter of perspective IMO. Nael here has issues with kids in public. Perhaps the situations described could be considered in a different light. The wailing kids on planes, from experience I know it is harder on the parents. The kids don't like takeoff and landing 'cause it hurts their ears. Being trapped in a restraint usually isn't appreciated either. Typically the parents spend the entire trip providing distraction to, food for or comforting the F1s.

I agree with Ysh's sentiments. Kid owners generally try to keep their kids behaved in public. It is critical for socializing. And most parents hustle unconsolable kids off home to pitch their fits. The kids of today will be the tax payers of tomorrow and will support social medical programs that the elderly (that's us in a variable length of time) will be dependent upon...

Parents clearly don't get paid enough..*wait, different topic*... So while most people are good, a few are not. Most kids are good, but even they can have an untimely incident in public that colors non parent's opinions.

Parents generally try to be considerate of others, so chill a little. It all goes wrong some of the time. Drunken non-breeders returning from a late night binge can wake up neighboring kids/parents so it all cuts both ways.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:21 pm

@Grendel, I agree that it does work both ways. Not just the noise of unthinking adults in public, but there are other polluters too, what about the inconsiderate pet owners who have caused my kids to trail waste across a brand new carpet because they are too idle to clean up after their animal? Don't get me wrong, I love dogs, I have kept them all my life until recent years (job then kids dictating) but I would not wish that kind of mess on anyone, as I wouldn't wish the sound of a crying child in a confined space on anyone. One of these two circumstances is avoidable

but as not all parents tolerate misbehaving kids in public, not all dog-owners leave their dog waste on public footpaths. I guess it is a case of mutual appreciation where it is due, though I find it harder to sympathise with a dog owner leaving mess on a pavement, than I do with a parent of a creating child

On my flight back from Mexico last Friday, I really felt for a couple in the seats in front. They had an exhausted and inconsolable six year old who cried and whined solidly for two hours before sleeping the next 8. They even chose to refuse his meal once he was sleeping (the crew would not keep it until later for hygiene reasons) because they were terrified of waking the boy. My two, thankfully!! (aged 5 and 8) were great travellers all things considered (yes they had their moments of boredom or bickering (wherein we separated them) ) but otherwise I could not complain at all. I was even fishing out some of their activity packs (that I had painstakenly put together and kept as a surprise) for these other parents to try and distract te child, but he was having none of it, and as Grendel said, being strapped down (there was a fair bit of turbulence) did not help matters.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:26 am

Originally posted by Yshania
Noone gets a choice as to whether they are born or not, and into which circumstances, so I don't see that this could be an issue per se. The only way to bring a child into the world is without their consent...

Just because a child can come into the world only without his or her consent, that doesn't mean that consent is a moot point. One of the reasons why it's an issue is because we have a choice: we can either choose to do something to someone without that person's consent, or we can choose not to do it. Having kids might be the "natural" thing to do, and it might be desirable from a practical point of view, but any decision we make that affects another person's life (even, or should I say especially, his or her existence) has moral implications. In this case, the person who wasn't able to have any say in the matter is the one who has to live with the consequences, so we should be careful about the decisions we make on his or her behalf. In any case, if you take the lack of consent into account when you make your decision, then it's an issue.

Originally posted by Yshania
Thankfully we are now beyond the age of a thirty plus woman being questioned about her "biological clock" since it is not unusual now to exercise the choice, or indeed to accept circumstances for what they are...

I guess it depends on where you live. Here in Texas (speaking from personal experience), the general public is not yet beyond that, whether you're talking about younger people or older people. But if what you say is true for the place where you live, then maybe there's still hope for the rest of us.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:06 am

Originally posted by Grendel
Parents clearly don't get paid enough..*wait, different topic*...

I don't see why parents should be paid for having kids. I think the issue is, who benefits when people have kids? The rest of the world? Perhaps they do in a very general sense (for example, your kids can buy my products and make me rich), but the benefit arises from the presence of a large number of kids, not from the existence of any particular person's kids. In other words, your kids in particular aren't essential to my prosperity as long as there are plenty of other kids who can buy my products and make me rich, so I wouldn't pay you to have kids.

So in the end, I wouldn't pay anybody to have kids.

Who else could benefit from people having kids? The kids themselves? Well, I suppose they could, provided that the kids in question don't loathe their own existence. If they're truly grateful that their parents brought them into the world and they're satisfied with the quality of their upbringing, then let them be the ones to reward their parents. But how many people truly feel such gratitude? I can't quote statistics, but my impression is that most people don't feel obligated to reward their parents, and they don't. Does this imply that their parents are not deserving? You be the judge. Feel free to open your own wallet to rectify any injustices you perceive.

Could it be that the main beneficiaries when people have kids are the parents themselves? If so, then the benefits they receive from parenthood should be sufficient reward for their efforts. If having kids isn't worth the trouble, then why have kids in the first place? Paying people to have kids would be like paying them to eat ice cream for their own pleasure.

This brings up the issue, what are the benefits in having children? A related issue is, what are the reasons why people have children? And to me, the obvious question is, is there any relation between the benefits for doing it and the reasons why people do it? (I don't see a necessary connection.)

Frankly, I get the impression that people who have kids don't understand the reasons why they had kids; they did it simply because they felt like doing it, and/or they felt that it was the right thing to do, and/or they felt that it was the only choice they had (especially if they had never even considered other options). I suspect that's just the way we're "programmed": we might believe in what we're doing, but we've never really given it much thought. Please be assured that I'm not trying to be insulting to anyone; I just think that's the way people are. I'm sure if you asked some parents why they had kids, they could think of something that sounds appropriate, and they might even be able to articulate sound reasons for their actions. But I'm skeptical as to whether such reasons are what actually gave rise to their actions, because I suspect that the conscious and unconscious minds don't always connect. In other words, logical reasons don't always explain people's behavior, no matter how eloquently expressed they are.

So to get back to the point, do people have kids because they perceive benefits in having them? If so, then again I say, it would be ridiculous to pay them.

smass · Post by **smass** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:04 am

Don't mean to bring such a basic emotional response into the discussion - but in my case the reason I have kids is "LOVE". While I am at base a cynical realist I would still venture to guess that this is the reason most people bring children into the world. I am sure you can all site numerous examples where this isn't the case - but I am willing to go out on a limb and say that genuine love between two people is usually what leads them to create another life to love and share their lives with.

As a certain minstrel once said "All we need is love..love..love is all we need"

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:19 am

Originally posted by smass
Don't mean to bring such a basic emotional response into the discussion - but in my case the reason I have kids is "LOVE". While I am at base a cynical realist I would still venture to guess that this is the reason most people bring children into the world. I am sure you can all site numerous examples where this isn't the case - but I am willing to go out on a limb and say that genuine love between two people is usually what leads them to create another life to love and share their lives with...

This brings up one more point I'd like to add to my last post (and then I'll sit back and read what the rest of you have to say).

When I spoke of "benefits" in my previous post, I meant to include things like "LOVE", which is certainly a real, tangible, gut-wrenching thing. I think the bond between a parent and a child is stronger than any other kind of human bond, and it can't be ignored. Of course, that leads to the issue of "what is love?" I'll let the rest of you deal with that one.

My only comment is, it seems peculiar to me that people who have such a strong appreciation of and desire for love (which includes most of us) can't find it with more than just a tiny number of people who already exist (such as the people they end up marrying) and attempt to create it by bringing new people into the world who have no choice but to love their parents. Such limitations deflate the value of all this idealized "LOVE" I hear so much about.

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