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Spider-man, Spider-man.
Does whatever a spider can.
Spins a web, sweet surprise.
Catches thieves, Just like flies,
Look out!

Here comes the Spider-man!

Is he strong? Listen, Bud!
He's got radioactive blood.
Can he swing from a thread?
No escape from his spider web.
Look out!

There goes the Spider!

In the chill of the night,
At the scene of the crime,
Like a laser light,
He arrives just in time.

Spider-man, Spider-man,
doin' the impossible, why? Because he can.
Spider-man, Spider-man,
doin' what he got to (?not sure what he says here?)

Look out!
life is a great big bang-up,
Wherever there's a hang-up,
You'll find the Spider-man!

The Metamorphoses (AKA The Golden Ass)

Actually, Fable, Apuleius of Madauros was a Roman citizen writing during the early Imperial period (at approximately A.D. 150). He was an odd sort, but his work is the oldest intact work of Roman fiction in existance. It was written in the "Greek" style -- the Romans were pretty puritanical but not those Greeks!

Unfortunately, no Egyptian literature survived to modern times. All that we have is from the Greeks (through the Arabs) and the pretty pictures painted in temples and on other edifaces along the Nile. No one could even read the hieroglyphs (after the Arab conquest of Egypt and the Dark Ages in Europe) until Napoleon marched through in the early 1800s.

OK, enough history from the classicist! (We can't resist, you know...)


My vote's for the Dark Knight. Batman is the classic tragic hero, in the vein of Odysseus/Ulysses, and he offers something both to those who want HEROes in big letters as well as those of us who like seeing our heroes fighting their own demons (and not some unflinching paragon of virtue ... nothing wrong with that, but he isn't "of the people" then). Besides, the Bat is just a man, without any nifty mutations or alien-granted powers, and that just makes him laying the smack down on drug-boosted criminals and psychotic masterminds all the better.

(I don't have anything against Wolverine, the Green Lantern, or Superman ... I just prefer the mortal hero type.)

Re: The Metamorphoses (AKA The Golden Ass)

Originally posted by Adm. Pellaeon
Actually, Fable, Apuleius of Madauros was a Roman citizen writing during the early Imperial period (at approximately A.D. 150).

Never said he wasn't. But he was also Egyptian, as I recall: Madauros was part of Egypt at the time, which in turn had been swallowed by the burgeoning Roman Empire. Am I wrong?

He was an odd sort, but his work is the oldest intact work of Roman fiction in existance. It was written in the "Greek" style -- the Romans were pretty puritanical but not those Greeks!

But to the Romans, anything with pretentions to art had to be Greek. Even if it was written by Petronius or Juvenal.

Unfortunately, no Egyptian literature survived to modern times.

See above. While there are strong Greek (and Roman) elements throughout the book, the depiction and worship of Isis (particularly in the dream sequence) don't strike me as possessing either the content or style of anything that previously came out of the Greek Isles. If we don't call that Egyptian, I'm at a loss to understand what we can call it.

A history challenge!

Madauros is in modern Algeria, I believe, which was the Roman province of Mauritania. For imagery, think of the northern coastline of Africa ... you have the Pillars of Hercules at the left end and the Sinai Peninsula at the right. Carthage occupied pretty much the center of that coastline, and Algeria is west of Tunisia (the nation currently home to Carthage's ruins). Even at its greatest extent, Thebes, Memphis, and Alexandria never ruled farther than a couple dozen miles west of the Nile.

Egypt had been a Roman protectorate since around the time of the birth of Gaius Julius Caesar. It was independent, but the decadent Ptolomaic Dynasty had pretty much run things into the ground. When Caesar was sent to run the Roman military operation there (to put an end to the dynastic civil war), he propped up the (weaker) claim of Cleopatra against her brother. Egypt remained independent from (and allied with) Rome until the Civil War ended in the defeat of the Antonians. From then on (18 BC?), Rome ruled Egypt in name and in fact.

As for the "Grecian" style, the man we now call Vergil, for example, wasn't considered a "Grecian" style author -- "Grecian" authors were generally far more, well, earthy, than their Roman counterparts.

... I understand your confusion about Isis. The Romans were thieves ... culture, art, architecture, and religion. They were the greatest of the ancient engineers (the Pyramids are brute-force applications), but no one ever accused them of being creative. Instead, they adopted and adapted. The Cult of Isis came to Rome the same way much of the ancient world's religions popped up -- it was something new in the City. Apuleius was taking something exotic to his readers and used it to tittilate them. "Proper" Egyptians (of the pre-Alexandrine dynasties) would probably have been horrified to see Isis so depicted.

Anyway, I'm blathering on, too. I'll just wrap it up by saying that Apuleius wrote his work about 200 years after Egypt became fully part of the Roman Empire. The book is old, no doubt about it, but that's what makes it interesting.

(By the way, ever notice the parallels -- at the roughest glance -- between the Man of Steel and Achilles on one hand, and the Dark Knight and Odysseus on the other?)

my vote went to other, I didnt see even a mention of Moon Knight, who in my opinion was the coolest of all time. Reborn to serve the egyptian god Khonshu. The fist of Khonshu relied heavily on the phase of the moon for his super human powers. But as a result of his military/mercenary training he was skilled in all forms of weaponry, and backed by his Billionaire alter ego Marc spector he was a force to be reconed with. Not to mention his outfit was one of the most simplistic, yet was quite ominous in it's own right.

Originally posted by Adm. Pellaeon
Egypt had been a Roman protectorate since around the time of the birth of Gaius Julius Caesar. It was independent, but the decadent Ptolomaic Dynasty had pretty much run things into the ground...From then on (18 BC?), Rome ruled Egypt in name and in fact.

But it was a distinct cultural entity, and remained so, throughout the Roman occupation, and beyond. As we are discussing cultural matters rather than governmental/military ones, it's the cultural frame-of-reference that takes precedence.

... I understand your confusion about Isis. The Romans were thieves ... culture, art, architecture, and religion. They were the greatest of the ancient engineers (the Pyramids are brute-force applications), but no one ever accused them of being creative. Instead, they adopted and adapted. The Cult of Isis came to Rome the same way much of the ancient world's religions popped up -- it was something new in the City. Apuleius was taking something exotic to his readers and used it to tittilate them. "Proper" Egyptians (of the pre-Alexandrine dynasties) would probably have been horrified to see Isis so depicted.

I'm not confused about Isis, thanks.. I've been studying the so-called "classical" period and Western Europe during the late medieval period as an enthusiastic amateur for the last thirty years. I'm far from being an expert, but I've read Budge's classic studies of the Egyptian deities, which are based on solid evidence that is certainly dated but still essentially correct, and regarded as the bedrock in this field. It draws upon all written evidence to present an in-depth understanding of those gods; and I find nothing in Apuleius which could be considered inaccurate. I think we can agree that the opinions of pre-Alexandrine dynasty Egyptians, being completely unknown to us, are best left out of the discussion. No one has ever claimed Apuleius was other than legitimately an Egyptian priest of Isis. Do you have information otherwise?

Besides, there are many Christians today who would be horrified at Christian worship and generally accepted religious texts prior to the acceptance of biblical canon--which would in no way invalidate the "Christian reality" either of those early worshippers, or their modern descendants.

(By the way, ever notice the parallels -- at the roughest glance -- between the Man of Steel and Achilles on one hand, and the Dark Knight and Odysseus on the other?)

Bah--why not bring Gilgamesh into it, if we're going to dig back a bit? At least he's the real thing, unlike the cheap pop knockof of comicbook fame. Superman has to be stronger, faster, more powerful, and of course, gifted with a more obvious failing which is completely external to him. Gilgamesh, by contrast, has strength to the greatest of men, and his weakenss is that of humanity, his failings are our own: he cries out against the processes of time that cause us to fade and die, that take from his his great friend, the warrior, Enkidu. Superman and Achilles never think twice about doing what's "right." Gilgamesh knows that all the gifts he has will fall, as will he. Alas for Gilgamesh, and for ourselves.

I've finally crossed swords with someone who's had the knowledge and ability to bring out a reasoned argument on anything pertaining to history without having to result to petty and churlish comments. (Somehow, whenever history comes up, people go batty on me.)

I salute you and yield the battlefield.

Originally posted by Adm. Pellaeon
I've finally crossed swords with someone who's had the knowledge and ability to bring out a reasoned argument on anything pertaining to history without having to result to petty and churlish comments. (Somehow, whenever history comes up, people go batty on me.)

I salute you and yield the battlefield.

In lieu of sharing a drink in convivial surroundings, do me the honor of checking out SYM (Speak Your Mind). It's our forum of spam ranging from the frivolous to the deadly serious. I think you'd fit in and become one of our more distinguished posters--if you can wade through the endless silliness that we all enjoy.

Hey! This thread was nice and pure, dealing with the true superheroes (*cough*Batman*cough*), and you people had to turn it into a serious discussion! Bah! out with you! Or make it a seperate thread

Don't worry, we've already moved on and started talking elsewhere about how snakes and lawyers are related.

BTW, Aegis: 1960s Batman, 1990s animated Batman, Tim Burton movies Batman, or Paul Verhoven movies Batman? Or are you a purist and it's "Choice E -- the comic book version of Batman only, and how dare you suggest those apocryphal versions?!"

Of course spiderman is the greatest, he's the most human with the exception of maybe the hulk, the rest are iconoclast no imperfection superbeings who have few if any real problems, and when injured have some mystical healing factor which always lets them get through it, whereas spiderman gets his hiny whipped, he's got broken bones, maybe some brain damage, etc., sure he's got superpowers but he gets his butt kicked and he comes back despite it, what's more heroic than that.

To my way of thinking there's nothing heroic if you have nothing to lose and are just perfect all the way.

Ok ok ok. Lets get this straight now. The Greatest comic book hero of all time isn't on this list at all..

The greatest hero of comicbookdom is definitaly...


Rorschach.


Watchmen.

Read it.

Umm is that the guy who was a superhero, but deliberately lost his memory because when he was a superhero his subconscious became the ultimate bad guy?

Marvel Universe.

And Yes I have read way to comic books.

Rorschach does not exist in marvel or dc universe, in the universe of the watchmen there exists no batman or superman.

quick bio on Rorschach in a minute..

I think it's terrific that The Tick was put on the options list. He's the best superhero of all time: totally focused, not distracted by minor things like, uh, intelligence.

My vote goes to Wolverine or other (= Ken/Ryu)

Its true that Superman started it all...and that many followed, though not all because of the same reason.
Iron Man for example (dunno why he aint in it) was created in the second World War I believe. While capt America (again, why aint he on that list??) in the Cold War. Many have there "created in special times/circumstances reasons for creation"

But Im drifting off, Wolverine is my favorite because he has IMO the most detailed background, fights cool, has a mysterious attitude and of course he a X-MEN

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/mooreportal/rorschach.html


I believe he's a man of great integrity, but he seems to see the world in very black and white, Manichean terms. I personally believe that to be an intellectual limitation."--Ozymandias on Rorschach




"This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not Fate that butchers them or Destiny that feeds them to dogs. It's us. Only us."

Marvel, pah

all marvel "heroes" are pansies! if you want the real deal check out stuff like ghost in the shell, and you'll see that Kusanagi kicks ass, in fact most Japnanese comics have some kind of amusing or just generally cool hero

Re: Marvel, pah

Originally posted by Digitalchimp
all marvel "heroes" are pansies! if you want the real deal check out stuff like ghost in the shell, and you'll see that Kusanagi kicks ass, in fact most Japnanese comics have some kind of amusing or just generally cool hero

Well, if you go into that, then Rurouni Kenshin is too good to pass up