Level of Undead turning

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:20 am

My memory of "chunking" a lich at 20 or so must've actually been just turning it.

What would be the level required to turn? Turning is almost as good as chunking, it just makes you work a bit more.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:25 am

oh no, don't worry about it...it was just always a concern of mine, that when i released the cheese guide, that i would ruin other people's fun...

frankly, overall, including your reaction, the reaction i got has been most favorable...except for the diehard roleplay crowd, most people who have read the guide have nothing but good things to say about it, that it amused them and opened their eyes, and even if people won't use the stuff in their, they like knowing that there is a place they can turn to for tough nasty battles...

so the concern when i first wrote it, of ruining people's fun is unfounded...

absolutely, not all the cheese will be your style, or even something you're going to be interested in...that's why i included so many cheeses, so that people can pick and choose the ones they are actually willing to use...many different techniques for the same battles..

thanks for the nice things you've said!!!

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:16 am

Originally posted by Xyx
My memory of "chunking" a lich at 20 or so must've actually been just turning it.

What would be the level required to turn? Turning is almost as good as chunking, it just makes you work a bit more.

From what VonDondu and I have found out I'd say turning works when you are between 0 and 6 levels higher than the undead. Since there's a level 11 Lich in the gamefiles it is indeed possible to "chunk" some of the liches with a level 18+ cleric.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:59 am

Originally posted by Xyx
My memory of "chunking" a lich at 20 or so must've actually been just turning it.

What would be the level required to turn? Turning is almost as good as chunking, it just makes you work a bit more.

An ordinary lich is 11th Level. According to the chart that Numinor linked to, an 8th Level Cleric can turn an 11th Level undead monster on a roll of 20, which gives you a 5% chance to make the monster run away. Your probability of success increases as you go higher in level. The level progression doesn't look consistent to me, but I'll accept what the table says for now. According to my own tests, an 18th Level Cleric will automatically make an 11th Level lich explode (if you use Turn Undead), so I'm pretty sure your 20th Level Cleric "chunked" that lich.

I agree that making monsters run away is almost as good as making them explode. They won't fight back if you attack them, which makes killing them a walk in the park (although vampires run pretty fast, so maybe in their case it's a "jog" through the park).

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
von, that was some extremely interesting reading...

urm...this also makes me think...if turn undead is dependent on being 7 levels higher than the target, does the math apply to Dispell magic too??? could being 7 levels or higher than a enemy mage mean almost 100% chance of removing spell protections??? somehow i would guess this is the formula used consistantly by the game engine...

Just to clarify, absolute destruction/control takes place if the Cleric is seven levels higher than the monster, but if the Cleric is less than seven levels higher than the monster (and not more than three levels lower), the Cleric has a chance (determined by a 20-sided die) to make the monster run away--the other form of "turning". If this scheme is correct, a 24th Level Cleric can make a 27th Level demi-lich run away on a roll of 20, while a 34th Level Cleric can make the demi-lich explode.

As for Dispel Magic, I don't have my manual in front of me, so I copied the following spell description from an online source:

"The chance of the dispel succeding is determined by the level of the caster and the level of the magic being dispelled. The base chance of sucessfully dispelling is 50%. For every level that the caster of the dispel magic is above the original caster, his chance of success increase by 5%. For every level that the caster of dispel magic is below the original caster, his chance of success decreases by 10%. However, despite the difference in levels, there is always at least a 1% chance of success or failure. Thus, if a caster is 10 levels higher than the magic he is trying to dispel, there is only a 1% chance of failure. Similarly if the caster has 4 levels lower than the magic he is trying to dispel, there is only a 10% chance of success. Intuitively, this spell is almost useless if the target is 5 or more levels higher than the caster."

By the same token, this spell is almost infallible if the target is 10 or more levels lower than the caster.

From this, you can make a simple table:

If your opponent is 5 levels higher: 1% chance of success
4 levels higher: 10% chance of success
3 levels higher: 20% chance of success
2 levels higher: 30% chance of success
1 level higher: 40% chance of success
Same level: 50% chance of success
1 level lower: 55% chance of success
2 levels lower: 60% chance of success
3 levels lower: 65% chance of success
4 levels lower: 70% chance of success
5 levels lower: 75% chance of success
6 levels lower: 80% chance of success
7 levels lower: 85% chance of success
8 levels lower: 90% chance of success
9 levels lower: 95% chance of success
10 levels lower: 1% chance of spell failure

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:38 pm

The game manual used this table too, or at least, it gave the same explanation like that online recourse of Von
So Bioware used different tables for this spell (to bad UU

)

Dispell magic is a spell, which is IMO only usefull in SoA when ure soloing, or you have a small party, cause being 5 levels or so higher then the avarage hard-battles mage(s) and liche(s) is not so common....
Especially with Tactics and Improved Battles installed, but that is beside the point. Of course, what I just said can be negleted when u use 6 mages with 3 dispell spells in contingency's....

And Von, thanks for all the information about undead and those tables, ure a great source for BG information

I have one more question though:
What's a Elemental lich?? Where can I find it and what is so special about it?? In all the time I played BG SoA I dont recall ever comming across one... (unless its in ToB or Watchers Keep...)

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:52 pm

The Elemetal Lich is one of the two Liches that guard the parts of Kangaxx body (I think the one in the Temple District), the other is the Shade Lich.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:55 pm

Originally posted by Numinor
The Elemetal Lich is one of the two Liches that guard the parts of Kangaxx body (I think the one in the Temple District), the other is the Shade Lich.

Ive actually fought that one often enough, but I dont recall it having other spells or immunities then the normal lich of a same level...

Must be me...

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:11 pm

There isn't much difference between the Elemental Lich and a normal Lich, there spells are only slightly different and the Elemental Lich has 20 more HP and better ability scores.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:12 pm

Originally posted by Sytze
Ive actually fought that one often enough, but I dont recall it having other spells or immunities then the normal lich of a same level...

Must be me...

the elmental lich has the distinction of being completely immune to elemental spells without buffing...one of the few times i fought it without tactics mod, i used to use inc cloud a lot back then, cause it could spell disrupt liches...it was immune, and proceeded to hand me my @ss...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:17 am

Call me naive if you want to, but I thought that the Elemental Lich and Shade Lich were supposed to be special just because they have distinctive names and they're the ones guarding Kangaxx's body parts. Also, I wasn't able to turn them the first few times I tried (since my characters were less than 17th Level), so I incorrectly concluded that they were immune to that (unlike normal liches). I didn't examine every CRE file and deconstruct the monsters back them--I simply tried to fight them in the game--and the Elemental Lich and Shade Lich seemed particularly tough at the time.

Now that I look at the CRE files, the differences are clear. First of all, a normal lich is only 11th Level, while the Elemental Lich and Shade Lich are 20th Level. Nine levels makes a big difference when it comes to spells such as Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting (9d8 damage) or even Sunfire (4d6, since the maximum is 15d6). The Elemental Lich has 100% resistance to fire, which as UserUnfriendly pointed out, is usually the most effective form of damage you can inflict on a lich, so that makes the Elemental Lich more difficult to kill. (Sorry, User, I didn't see any other special elemental immunities--all liches are resistant to cold and electricity, not just the Elemental Lich.) As for spells, the Elemental Lich can cast Gate, which can be fun to deal with, and the Shade Lich can cast Prismatic Spray, which has some interesting effects, and both of them can cast Symbol: Stun and Maze, which are also fun to deal with. Fortunately, only Kangaxx himself is wearing a Ring of Gaxx.

However, none of them compare to the improved liches. Talk about "fun" and "interesting"...

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:34 pm

I probably didnt notice the difference, because I take liches out in a totally different way then most of u do, I guess.

I either take down his defences and then hack and slash my way until the lich his arse is delivered on a plate, or I let him deplete all his spells....

I dont use damage spells on liches, so thats why I didnt saw any difference...

I also hear u guys and girls

talking about those smarter mages and liches....
What's so improved about them?? Do they use that Teleport Field spell often?? Because if they do, does my Archer (without much protection vs magics) have any chance of standing against liches for long?? I fear the worst.....maybe its time I took tashia along for the ride again

combined with Dhalis and Imoen I think I should be fine on tha magepower part

And @ Von, when U look at the CRE files, what program do U use?? InfExp??

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:12 pm

Liches

Smarter liches make some creative use of remove magic, etc. so they won't just stand there taking damage while a Pro Undead or Pro Magic Keldorn chops them to bits. They also summon you to them if they can't see the party. They're...significantly more challenging

You can check CRE files in Shadowkeeper

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:18 pm

Re: Liches

Originally posted by nephtu
Smarter liches make some creative use of remove magic, etc. so they won't just stand there taking damage while a Pro Undead or Pro Magic Keldorn chops them to bits. They also summon you to them if they can't see the party. They're...significantly more challenging

You can check CRE files in Shadowkeeper

whats even more fun is using improved invisibility, spell immunity divination and abjuration, and even spell shield, combined with protection from magic weapons, and stacked protection from energy.

result...

completely immune to physical attacks and energy attacks, like sunray...

its a completely interlocking and nested uber defense that i would be proud to have put together...

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:10 pm

This is fascinating research, but I must say: waiting until level 27 to fight Kangaxx's guardians is not a real option. So, effectively, I will continue to treat them as unturnable, even if it isn't technically true. Especially considering that a vanilla SoA doesn't let you get above level 21. (Although it might be fun to leave the demi-lich in Watcher's Keep until later.

)

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:10 am

Originally posted by JackOfClubs
This is fascinating research, but I must say: waiting until level 27 to fight Kangaxx's guardians is not a real option...

Your point is well-taken. I can't think of a good reason to wait so long to do that particular quest, so I too would not count on turning them. However, if you want to be nitpicky, if you wait until 27th Level to meet Kangaxx's guardians, there won't be a "fight" if you turn them. Making them instantly explode is not what I would call a "fight".

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:43 am

Re: Re: Liches

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
whats even more fun is using improved invisibility, spell immunity divination and abjuration, and even spell shield, combined with protection from magic weapons, and stacked protection from energy.

result...

completely immune to physical attacks and energy attacks, like sunray...

its a completely interlocking and nested uber defense that i would be proud to have put together...

I play with a party of 6...
So when I encounter most liches, I dont have the real " taking out liches" spellpower yet...

Thats why Im so scared (not realy scared, of course not!

) about the Smarter liches and mages, I think ill be chuncked a bit more then Id like to....

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:39 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
However, if you want to be nitpicky, if you wait until 27th Level to meet Kangaxx's guardians, there won't be a "fight" if you turn them. Making them instantly explode is not what I would call a "fight".

Touche`

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:40 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
I just did an experiment. If you want to try it yourself, here's how I did it. I rolled up a Lawful Neutral Cleric and started the game. I walked to the room that has the Jailkeep Golem and closed both doors (I left Imoen behind) to limit the scope of the action. I created a Scroll of Protection From Undead (SCRL09) and used it tp keep the monsters from attacking. Then I summoned some monsters (SKELWA01, VAMPIM01, VAMPIF01, MUMGRE01, LICH01, DEMILICH, etc.), tried to turn them, and kept raising my character's level until the monsters exploded.

A skeleton warrior (9th Level) explodes when the Cleric is 16th Level. A male vampire (8th Level) explodes when the Cleric is 15th Level. A female vampire (11th Level) explodes when the Cleric is 18th Level. A greater mummy (14th Level) explodes when the Cleric is 21st Level.

I couldn't make the lich explode or make the demi-lich run away, not even when the Cleric was 40th Level. I think that's because I have the improved lich MOD installed. In previous unmodified games, I remember making liches explode and making the demi-lich in Watcher's Keep run away, so I know it can be done. I don't remember the exact level of the Cleric, though.

I just tried this out on the actual demi-lich in Watcher's Keep. I don't have the improved Lich MOD installed, but I still couldn't get the thing to explode or even to run away. I tried this with the "kinder gentler" Viconia (anyone who's done her Romance knows what I mean) at level 34. Just to be sure, I used SK to bump her level to 40 and it still didn't work. Looking at the CRE file (DEMILICH.CRE) I note that the creature is wearing an invisible, undropable "ring" that protects it from, among other things, death effects. I wonder if this could be the explanation?

UncleScratchy · Post by **UncleScratchy** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:36 am

Undead turning (spoilers)

Originally posted by Sytze
In my last game I took Anomen along, and he was very useful vs Undead. Unfortunatly, I didnt get to the point where he can destroy Vampires or Greater Mummies....

I'm playing a f/m/t female half-elf with Anomen and Immy as the rest of the party. Needless to say Anomen leveled very quickly and is now a lvl 27 cleric in the Underdark. My party is just about to take on the drow quest for the royal blood. Anomen's turn-undead abilities really took me by surprise starting in the Asylum dungeons. My pc got stunned by the lich and was being wailed on by two greater mummies, the lich and two skeleton warriors. I brought in Anomen with his turn-undead blazing and in a flash there were undead guts exploding everywhere. I'd never exploded a greater mummy before let alone a lich. Then I got Jeraxles rope quest in the Underdark, went into the building and Anomen exploded the Jel'lat lich before he could get close enough to start his dialog. That got me wondering so I decided to search the forum for more info and stumbled on this excellent thread. I was hoping that Anomen could chunk up Bodhi's lair on the return until I realized that he will be kidnapped/killed when I enter the graveyard as part of the romance sequence. That would have been interesting to witness but perhaps a mite to unchallenging.

So my questions: Should I end the romance by dropping him and then have him rejoin the party (thus ending the romance) or try it alone with just PC and Immy and revive Anomen's body afterwords? Is there any point in continuing the romance either way? My f/m/t (lvls 14/14/16) has UAI now so she could wield Mace o' Disruption +2 but won't have the other vampire killing skills. Which brings up another question: What proficiency does a thief have with UAI? Do they have 0 prof if they don't have any points put on that weapon or does UAI grant a certain minimum level of proficency automatically? I'm tempted to play it the super-easy way and then reload to a previous save and try it the super difficult way.

Possible spoiler:

Anomen's cleric spells are turn-undead have been the backbone of the party so far. Most interesting was in the drow city inn/pub with the fighter's pit challenges. PC did the first fight after insulting the previous winner. Then had Anomen do the 2nd challenge. He summoned two skeleton warriors which proceeded to kill the oponent pretty much by themselves. Then I had Imoen do the 3rd challenge. The skellies were still in the pit and quickly killed the mage. Then Immy did the 4th challenge, same skellies and same result, and so on until the last challenge. Skeleton warriors pretty much did all the fighting and not one was killed.

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:36 pm

Vampires

I don't think UAI gives you any proficiency, sadly. Jan shows a 2 point THAC0 penalty when going from, say, CF +5 (1 * proficient) to spear +5 (no proficiency)

The vampires are susceptible to a variety of attacks, but an obvious choice would be to have Imoen use triggered sunfires. Clump the vamps and incinerate, combine with chain contingency for even more fun.

For picking off the singles, if your F/M/T is ok with axes (and not evil) go get Azuredge (the ranged attack is very convenient), or pick up Keldorn and have him use it for the vamps - you'll have to fiddle his proficiencies.

Remember, you can get up to 3 groups (Drizzt, Paladins, Shadow thieves) to help with the clearing and final fight.

Flavour to taste, but I don't think you need to boot Anomen to do this one. The really tricky bit is the Bodhi fight itself, at least if you have Improved Bodhi (ouch!)