GameBanshee Forums

Originally posted by Kovi:
After I have bet on the Sorcerer...Pat, I also have some challenges for you!

The first is dual Mage/Cleric with Robe of Vecna, contingencies, triggers, etc. (I would prefer leaving out Magi).

The other is...a sorcerer!

One more thing: a sorcerer should have to use the same set of spells for any duel, while a mage could memorize different ones. Which spells would you choose?

Refer to my Guide. These are the spells I would choose (maybe change the non-useful Spell Thrust for Flame Arrow or Fireball, the non-required Improved Invisibility for Greater Malison, and since Spider Spawn is of no uses at high levels, I'll change it for Wizard Eye). Backed up with my equipment and a continguency scroll, a minor sequencer scroll and a sequencer scroll. Maybe a spell immunity (lvl 5) scroll against the paladin...

I wrote Mage/Cleric. Level 10,20. Having 17 mage spells and 55 cleric spells.

A sorcerer has definitely much more higher level spells, but some can be countered (avoided) with the some lower level spells.

Mages have a wider choise of spells, and invisibilety is useless to a true sight spell, also time stop could be use by both sides, if your sorceror did not have that spell, the mage only need to cast time stop, true sight, greater malediction, figer of death.
A magic resistence fighter could also defect him, even that "invible" thing does not work all times, a improved hasted character could hit the sorceror and sorcerors dont have a lot of HP.

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ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
Cats, 2101.

Yes, I was interested in just that Spell Immunity. So you would have (one) scroll

The mages also have to choose (memorize) the spells for this duel. So for the battle they would have less spells (much less on higher levels) and cannot cast them "dinamically".

Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
Mages have a wider choise of spells, and invisibilety is useless to a true sight spell, also time stop could be use by both sides, if your sorceror did not have that spell, the mage only need to cast time stop, true sight, greater malediction, figer of death.
A magic resistence fighter could also defect him, even that "invible" thing does not work all times, a improved hasted character could hit the sorceror and sorcerors dont have a lot of HP.

Umm...the invisible thing works all the time..with the staff of magi...an improved hasted char could hit a sorcerer...perhaps once before he goes back invis...fortunately the hit will be deflect by stoneskin. I believe the assumptions here again is that by actually connecting a hit to a sorcerer he will die...

The stone skin would run out the magic resistence would make the fighter survive long enougt to kill the sorceror.
In fact until he say the spells that the sorceror actually have, I cannot say the way to beat him.
Also there is no "my class is the best", in fact the whole point of AD&D is having a party to cover the indevidual weakness.

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ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
Cats, 2101.

Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
Mages have a wider choise of spells, and invisibilety is useless to a true sight spell, also time stop could be use by both sides, if your sorceror did not have that spell, the mage only need to cast time stop, true sight, greater malediction, figer of death.
A magic resistence fighter could also defect him, even that "invible" thing does not work all times, a improved hasted character could hit the sorceror and sorcerors dont have a lot of HP.

This is getting tedious...

Mages may have a wider spellbook, but, and I'll repeat myself... THE ONLY GOOD SPELLS ARE THE SPELLS YOU CAN CAST RIGHT NOW. Sorry for the caps, but that is the main point of the sorcerer vs mages. And too many peoples seems to forget that.

First, we're not talking about duels with xp cap remover. So forget about Time Stop. And even with xp cap remover, maybe my Guide doesn't says so, but I prefer Time Stop over Wail of the Banshee (coupled with Chain Continguency and Gate). So I too have Time Stop, like the mage.

The following explanation is also valid for level 9 spells, but since we don't use xps cap, I will only talk about level 8 spells.

Again, I think I shouldn't be explaining all this, and just tell you to play a sorceror and then come back later, but I feel you need to know why exactly...

At level 17 (max for sorcerors and pure mages) :
- sorcerors can cast 4 spells and know 2 spells
- pure mages can cast 2 spells and know all 13 if they are lucky enough to find all the scrolls

That in itself is almost enough... But I'll explain more.

You see, the pure mage can only cast 2 spells. For versatility's sake, he'll certainly memorize 2 different spells, and most likely the 2 best spells at that level (which are Abi Dalzim's Horrid Whilting and Spell Trigger or Simulacrum).

The pure mage can only cast each of these 2 spells once.

Let's say the sorceror has gone through the same reasonning and has chosen the same 2 spells. He can cast 4 spells at that level, in any combination :
- 4 Horrid Whilting
- 4 Simulacrum/Spell Trigger
- 2 Horrid Whilting and 2 Simulacrum/Spell Trigger
- 3 Horrid Whilting and 1 Simulacrum/Spell Trigger
- 1 Horrid Whilting and 3 Simulacrum/Spell Trigger

What is so cool about this is that the sorceror doesn't have to choose which combination he prefers... until he needs the spell.

If that is not enough, then count the spells per day :
- pure mages can cast a total of 33 spells per day
- sorcerors can cast a total of 46 spells per day (40% more)

And to continue on with the first reasonning, just compare the number of spells casted per day by the pure mage, with the number of spells know per level of the sorceror and the number of spells per level the sorceror can cast.
- Level 1 : mage casts 5 spells, sorceror knows 5 and casts 6 (any combination)
- Level 2 : mage casts 5 spells, sorceror knows 5 and casts 6 (any combination)
- Level 3 : mage casts 5 spells, sorceror knows 4 and casts 6 (any combination)
- Level 4 : mage casts 5 spells, sorceror knows 4 and casts 6 (any combination)
- Level 5 : mage casts 5 spells, sorceror knows 4 and casts 6 (any combination)
- Level 6 : mage casts 3 spells, sorceror knows 3 and casts 6 (any combination)
- Level 7 : mage casts 3 spells, sorceror knows 3 and casts 6 (any combination)
- Level 8 : mage casts 2 spells, sorceror knows 2 and casts 4 (any combination)

I hope that is clear enough why the pure mage is inferior to the sorceror. The first rounds are very crucials to both spellcasters as they can cast as fast about the same spells (not same number of spells, but the same spells). But after the pure mage will have cast his most useful spells, then he'll be totally screwed as the sorceror can go on, and on, and on, and on, with those spells that are so good.

As for your fighter reasonning, you should know better. The best magic resistant fighter (save the paladins) has about 30 to 40% MR (ring of Gaax, amulet of 10% and other item). At level 17, my Lower resistance spell can bring that down by 27%. At 13% magic resistance, about 9 spells out of 10 will hit. I don't think you are relying on that failed 10th spell to win.

And yes, invisibility at will from the Staff of the Magi works all the time (except against True Sight, which will just make the fight harder, but while the opponent is casting True Sight, the sorceror is on the offensive, and probably disrupting the spell casting at the same time).

And low hit points is not a problem for a sorceror that can cast 7 stoneskins of 8 skins each, plus any contiguency (make that 8, for 64 skins, or 64 hits that does nothing to the sorceror).

People should really know the sorceror better before arguing.

This could really end the discussion.

hehehe, yeah, you all guys should do as pat bou said, "know yourself to became stronger"
he know his class very well, and you all should do the same.
that stuff of knowing yourself reminds me of dakkon from planescape

Genesis: Fighters (and everyone else) can use Protection from Magic and any other green scrolls.

Pat Bou: True Sight is available to anyone via the Book of Infinite spells...and takes no time to cast using the book. So, there is a way for ANYONE to get around the Staff of the Magi...though you can still reequip it over and over until True Sight wears off.

Also, Stoneskins are not the defense the Sorcerer needs. Sure, they lower the damage he receives, but with weapons like the Flail of the Ages he'll take 12/round through the stoneskin from a fighter and that's enough to disrupt spellcasting even with the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power. What he needs to use is Protection from Magic Weapons -- preferably after having completed the game and gotten the protection from weapons of +1 or less special ability...

Monks: Much harder to fight against than the Paladins (except maybe Inquisitor). Carsomyr only gives 50% magic resistance, Monks start with 63%. Yes, it theoretically casts dispell magic, but I've never seen that remove stoneskins. Lower resistance can be countered with potions. Beyond that, you not only need to lower the Monk's resistance, but also raise his saves or it doesn't matter. Damaging spells would just be reflected by the cloak and he only has to catch you with his Protection from Magic spell once and it's game over. Without powerful magic items the Monk is the only character I think can match the sorcerer. Lower resistance can be met by running away until it wears off then coming back. He'll only be seen if the sorcerer has True Sight running, and 4 (5 before the patch) attacks per round get rid of a lot of stoneskins quickly...on the other hand, since the Monk would be weaker without items you might be able to kill him with summoned creatures or Lower Resistance and get a sequencer of Fire Arrows through.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 03-01-2001).]

Pat Bou;

I expressed my opinions in a polite way. Please do the same. Don't ever imply that I should me less intelligent than you again.

In your original message you never said anything about the sorceror having started the fight earlier than the, for example, fighter. This is what throwing Iron Skin, Mirror Images etc would mean. Also, you did not mention the sorceror being equipped with the Staff of the Magi and robe of Vecna.

My own experinces of the sorceror are, I confess, not at your level. I have however played mages numerous times and at least tried out the sorceror. There are differences between the classes. But I wouldn't say these differences are so great that you can't understand the basics of the sorceror by understanding the mage.

Finally, I think it's great you've found a class you're so satisfied with.

Originally posted by Astafas:
Pat Bou;

I expressed my opinions in a polite way. Please do the same. Don't ever imply that I should me less intelligent than you again.

In your original message you never said anything about the sorceror having started the fight earlier than the, for example, fighter. This is what throwing Iron Skin, Mirror Images etc would mean. Also, you did not mention the sorceror being equipped with the Staff of the Magi and robe of Vecna.

My own experinces of the sorceror are, I confess, not at your level. I have however played mages numerous times and at least tried out the sorceror. There are differences between the classes. But I wouldn't say these differences are so great that you can't understand the basics of the sorceror by understanding the mage.

Finally, I think it's great you've found a class you're so satisfied with.

Sorry man. Honestly. I didn't mean to be impolite in any way.

This discussion was not only on this board and the same arguments have been written and answers many time now. This is why I said it was getting tedious. I feel I'm repeating myself, but not to you on this forum as this explanation was given on another one.

Again, I'm sorry.

As for stoneskin, I hope that you use this always on when you play a mage. And the same goes for a stoneskin continguency. That is not the sorceror being prepared for this particular figh, but the everyday sorceror. Mirror Image although is casted in the first round of combat.

And you didn't know I was equipping Staff of the Magi and Robe of Vecna. But this duel thing is referring to best equipped characters...

Take care!

Originally posted by Nighthawk:

Pat Bou: True Sight is available to anyone via the Book of Infinite spells...and takes no time to cast using the book. So, there is a way for ANYONE to get around the Staff of the Magi...though you can still reequip it over and over until True Sight wears off.

Also, Stoneskins are not the defense the Sorcerer needs. Sure, they lower the damage he receives, but with weapons like the Flail of the Ages he'll take 12/round through the stoneskin from a fighter and that's enough to disrupt spellcasting even with the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power. What he needs to use is Protection from Magic Weapons -- preferably after having completed the game and gotten the protection from weapons of +1 or less special ability...

Monks: Much harder to fight against than the Paladins (except maybe Inquisitor). Carsomyr only gives 50% magic resistance, Monks start with 63%. Lower resistance can be countered with potions. Beyond that, you not only need to lower the Monk's resistance, but also raise his saves or it doesn't matter. Damaging spells would just be reflected by the cloak. Without powerful magic items the Monk is the only character I think can match the sorcerer. Lower resistance can be met by running away until it wears off then coming back. He'll only be seen if the sorcerer has True Sight running, and 4 (5 before the patch) attacks per round get rid of a lot of stoneskins quickly...on the other hand, since the Monk would be weaker without items you might be able to kill him with summoned creatures or Lower Resistance and get a sequencer of Fire Arrows through.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 03-01-2001).]

Reequipping the Staff is one way to bypass True Sight. Spell Immunity (divination) works very well also.

And the Book of Infinite Spell has random spell. Mine was destroyed when I turned the page the first time (unlucky I guess).

Flail of the Ages is a surprise for me...

Mirror Images should protect me, as invisibility. Other than that, I'm short of ideas. I don't have protection from magical weapons in my spellbook and I don't carry that scroll along as I rely only on stoneskin, so I won't be cheesy and try to screw you on this...

Cloak of mirroring is disabled by secret word or ruby ray of reversal, AFAIK.

Even if not, then I can summon 5 mordenkainen's sword (does not disrupt my invisibility at all), haste them, and watch the show.

3 Lower Resistance can be put in the spell trigger for minus 81% in one shot. Even then the above summoning trick is probably the best thing against Monks.

But I'll confess again that the Flail of the Ages is something I have never though of.

A fighter/thief or assasin would take out a sorceror easily with one back stab. You would not see him coming because he would be hid in shadows. Your invisibility would not work becuase of detect illusion. Your stone skin or other protective spells would not be up because you would not see him coming. One back stab is all it would take.

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"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night, by a running man."
- Klingon Crewman "Day of the Dove"

[This message has been edited by KN (edited 03-01-2001).]

Originally posted by KN:
A fighter/thief or assasin would take out a sorceror easily with one back stab. You would not see him coming because he would be hid in shadows. Your invisibility would not work becuase of detect illusion. Your stone skin or other protective spells would not be up because you would not see him coming. One back stab is all it would take.

Did you actually played the game with Imoen, Aerie, Jan, Nalia, Jaheira, Cernd or Edwin without Stoneskin/Ironskin permanently on? These spells have a duration of 12 hours. They are designed to be there all the time.

BTW, that was said in another thread already.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pat Bou:
Reequipping the Staff is one way to bypass True Sight. Spell Immunity (divination) works very well also.

True and it would be a required spell for duels I think.

And the Book of Infinite Spell has random spell. Mine was destroyed when I turned the page the first time (unlucky I guess).

Once you find a spell you like, it stays there as long as you want.

Flail of the Ages is a surprise for me...

Mirror Images should protect me, as invisibility. Other than that, I'm short of ideas. I don't have protection from magical weapons in my spellbook and I don't carry that scroll along as I rely only on stoneskin, so I won't be cheesy and try to screw you on this...

It's not about being cheesy, it's about figuring out the possibilities

Cloak of mirroring is disabled by secret word or ruby ray of reversal, AFAIK.

Nope. There is no way to get rid of the protection. The only way to kill a character with it is physical damage (summonings) or instant death (not Finger of Death since it inflicts damage as a side effect.). At high level you'll need Greater Malaisons and/or Doom and against the monk you'll want Lower Resistance as well.

Even if not, then I can summon 5 mordenkainen's sword (does not disrupt my invisibility at all), haste them, and watch the show.

Mordekainen's Swords are powerful, but mostly because they're nearly immune to magic. Against a high level fighter (or monk) you'll see they really aren't that strong. A well equipped fighter or monk should have no problem taking out 5 of them, even with them hasted.

3 Lower Resistance can be put in the spell trigger for minus 81% in one shot. Even then the above summoning trick is probably the best thing against Monks.

As above, you still need to get past his saves which at level 21 are automatic plus some. Even leaving out the scrolls, he can be back +100% by drinking 2 potions.

Just because the game "forgets" about the spell material compoments (Stone skin requires a diamant worth 1000 gp), right stategies and use of spells (breack works againt stone skin) will end a sorceror live, the sorceror have good points but also have bad points.
There is a reason that BioWare put all the other classes in there (there not just there to make the sorceror look great ).

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ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
Cats, 2101.

Simple. Just lay down beside the sorceror and take a snooze till his spells wear off.

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"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night, by a running man."
- Klingon Crewman "Day of the Dove"

what about my 9,20 berserker celric, his a level 20 spell caster that beats your 17.
he can dispel all off your protection spells
in one hit, and he's got 10 off them 8 true sites he's got a amour class of -17, -9 thaco, 5 stars in the hammer. has well has the belt off inertial barrier if you don't want the cloak. spells are amour of faith
25% resistance, conjure monsters, blade barrier,
magic resistance, and lots more. i said yesterday that my paladin might beat you, but would lose to a fighter. But this boy could beat anyone. yours rowdin

I can't believe I'm getting involved in this, but I guess I just can't resist. So then, Pat, a few things:

I'm willing to bet a level 17 archer equipped with the short bow of Gesen could tear apart a sorcerer. Why? The magical electrical damage isn't soaked up by stoneskin, so it's great for spell disrupting. As has already been said, the Book of Infinite Spells can be turned to and then left on the True Sight page, which effectively makes invisibility and mirror image moot. Also, Spell Immunity (divination) won't protect you from True Sight since it directly affects the caster, not the caster's target. The sorcerer would, however, have a few ways to further protect himself from damage; Protection From Magical Weapons and Absolute Immunity come to mind. In the former case, regular arrows can be loaded into the Gesen bow. In the latter case, an archer would be screwed, but I'm not sure if there are any available scrolls of Absolute Immunity. Anyone know?

Of course, if a sorcerer wanted to be really cheesy, he could use some cheap Project Image and Similacrum strategies to end the battle before it began. But any self respecting sorcerer wouldn't sink to such levels, now would he?