DARKEST DAY IS GO!

[fable]

Originally posted by reedimus:
<STRONG>been playing TDD for a couple days now...what a wonderful addition to SoA. I can't believe something as cool as TDD is free. I'd trade ToB for TDD any day, and I paid 30 bucks for ToB.</STRONG>

Heh. Don't know that I'd go *that* far, but they certainly more than just a few rounds of applause.

I've read on their forums that they might patch in some mage kits. I'd really look forward to that.

[Musashi Miyamoto]

sorry refresh my memory, you mean the spell pack? i'll get around to it but first i got to get off my lazzy rear and get those D&D rulebooks for mages and clercs, along with druid spells, i got the basic rule book but i want the whole set so might take a while before i get around to it. but it should be coming along some day

[THE JAKER]

Gah! Will I ever be free of this game?!?!?!

[Musashi Miyamoto]

lol *bows* all i can say is great job guys and it is looking great, tho i only have read the information on the website while i was waiting for the download its 2 or 3 days so far i think and its only 51% done, all i can say is modem suxor, can't wait to get this baby down onto the computer then i'm going to burn an copy so if the computer dies i won't have to redownload it and it is painful trust me, 226 meg though 28k modem is nothing to snear at.

anyway the mod is looking great!

[MordorMan]

Once I finished TOB I finished with BG entirely but now TTD is out, I downloaded it (took only an hour or so) and I am very much looking forward to start a TDD game.

I think it is great that people took the trouble making this mod and I know it will be good because it was made by BG fans.

Helmets off!

MM

[fable]

Originally posted by MordorMan:
<STRONG>I think it is great that people took the trouble making this mod and I know it will be good because it was made by BG fans.
</STRONG>

This is *not* meant as a criticism of TDD (which I'm already enjoying), but I question whether a mod will necessarily be good just because the folks that make it are enthusiastic fans of that particular series. Being enthusiastic is great, but having the series of skill to design and implement game programming is another matter. One of the best program designers in the business, whom I know, actually hates the types of games he designs, but he has an insight into what players enjoy, and what they want. He *listens* well to players, in other words.

Conversely, there's a game available only through the web (Siege of Avalon) which is designed by CRPG enthusiasts, who left out almost every single thing that CRPG enthusiasts enjoy in their games: a sense of tension, non-linearity, a diversity of professions, parties, very varied interactions with well-thought-out NPCs, strategically designed combat encounters, spells that are game-balanced, etc.

That said, TDD is a fine combination of the enthusiast and designer. I do wish they'd gotten a good copyreader on the team before releasing it--but comments on their website lead me to believe this hardworking, creative pair of programmers don't put much stock in the nicities of language and grammar. I can only applaud their excellent efforts, but wish they'd brought in fresh blood to polish up the edges, so to speak.

[MordorMan]

Fable, you are probably right but I think what I meant to say was that it seems to me a real BG fans seem like intelligent people to me (although I often question my own intelligence when spending so much time playing..) that are well in thouch with the many factors that can balance or unbalance a game. Also, many seem to be quite able to write strories in the style that is expected of games in these settings. But of course there are many other factors that influence the succes of a game or mod.

Anyway, before I babble on about a mod I haven't even tried yet I'm now going to uninstall BG2/ToB.. *swallows*

MM

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>This is *not* meant as a criticism of TDD (which I'm already enjoying), but I question whether a mod will necessarily be good just because the folks that make it are enthusiastic fans of that particular series. Being enthusiastic is great, but having the series of skill to design and implement game programming is another matter. One of the best program designers in the business, whom I know, actually hates the types of games he designs, but he has an insight into what players enjoy, and what they want. He *listens* well to players, in other words.

Conversely, there's a game available only through the web (Siege of Avalon) which is designed by CRPG enthusiasts, who left out almost every single thing that CRPG enthusiasts enjoy in their games: a sense of tension, non-linearity, a diversity of professions, parties, very varied interactions with well-thought-out NPCs, strategically designed combat encounters, spells that are game-balanced, etc.

That said, TDD is a fine combination of the enthusiast and designer. I do wish they'd gotten a good copyreader on the team before releasing it--but comments on their website lead me to believe this hardworking, creative pair of programmers don't put much stock in the nicities of language and grammar. I can only applaud their excellent efforts, but wish they'd brought in fresh blood to polish up the edges, so to speak.</STRONG>

And keep in mind the project once started off with a large group of BGDungeon fanatics, the ideas and storyline were brought in by several people, a few of them with impressive literary skills. Of course, in a later stadium, when the ideas had to be implemented into the game, those team members dropped out one by one until Minto and Potencius finished the mod on their own. One can nitpick about spelling errors or the style in some of the conversations, but it's a small price for the fun this expansion brings. The few quests I have done from TDD already were very good and original, not "let's make some silly quest to keep those idiots busy".
I've downloaded this expansion on the very first day and have been playing it for a while. Of course it's not 100 % bug free but even though there have been two thorough beta test sessions, you can't blame that on the developpers who have spent a lot of time on it during the last year...
And in this stage they are merely cleaning out all the bugs, perhaps the spelling errors will be taken care of in a later stadium. But it was the public pressure and expectation on them - The Elysium was a site devoted to the Darkest Day since January, for instance, people have been asking for the release date for 10 months already - that got the game released in such an early stage. Now they've released it because of their enthousiasm and that public pressure, it's a little hypocrite to ask for someone to "polish up the edges" in this stage, they have more things to worry about now. Perhaps later...
(waiting now for the first patch to be released )

[ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[fable]

Grojlach writes:
One can nitpick about spelling errors or the style in some of the conversations...

If I'd felt they had perhaps 3-4 spelling errors, I wouldn't have mentioned it. I found quite a lot more, and I did. This isn't nitpicking, and if you'll examine the context, you will see that it's constructive criticism embedded in an *extremely* positive context.

Of course it's not 100 % bug free but even though there have been two thorough beta test sessions, you can't blame that on the developpers who have spent a lot of time on it during the last year...

I didn't mention any bugs. All I noted were spelling errors. You slam me for noting a couple of dozen spelling/grammar errors, while you have to go and mention programming bugs when these fine programming folks are trying to get people to try their great new mod.

But it was the public pressure and expectation on them - The Elysium was a site devoted to the Darkest Day since January, for instance, people have been asking for the release date for 10 months already - that got the game released in such an early stage.

@Grojlach, did you even *read* what I wrote? You quoted it. What's so hard to understand about calling TDD's creators "a hardworking team of programmers," "a fine combination of enthusiast and designer," and their product, "excellent?" Sheesh, stop defending them from an extensive round of compliments.

Now they've released it because of their enthousiasm and that public pressure, it's a little hypocrite to ask for someone to "polish up the edges" in this stage, they have more things to worry about now.

You note bugs, when no one has pointed them out, but I'm excoriated because I mentione the much quieter matter of quite a few spelling errors. An interesting perspective. Surely you could have avoided even mentioning bugs, just so the design team can get more people to download and enjoy their product? Give them a break. Such bugs as exist, I'm sure, are really small.

(BTW, the word "hypocritical" refers to a person who professes one belief and acts in direct contradiction to it, so I don't think that's what you meant. And to be frank, finding out isn't a priority with me, since I honestly don't think you saw any of my comments aside from that single phrase, "spelling errors.")

[ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

[Grojlach]

ROFL. It wasn't a personal attack, though the fact I quoted your post might have given you that feeling. Sorry if you completely misunderstood my purpose that way.
Nah, I was just stating those spelling errors are not the end of the world and once again that the bug fixes (which are more needed than you think) have their prior interest at this point. While some of the added conversations are decent and literary, some aren't. Those are the ones they just they have bungled, just to see if the conversations are working properly in the game or not and they forgot to fix later.
I agree though, I have encountered a conversation which was annoyingly bad written, style and grammar wise, with 4 options every time and only one option which wasn't rude. But once again, it will be taken care of in a later stadium, I reckon.
And once again, both the spelling errors and the bugs have a similar source, the haste in which the expansion set was released. I was just a litle amazed by your remark about bringing in "fresh blood" to polish it all up, cause like I said, the team was once a lot bigger and they had people only taking care of the storyline and dialogues, people with very decent literary skills to "polish it all up", but they left the development team (real life issues) long before the mod was released. Perhaps they could have found someone else for that task, which was the point of your post, but I just tried to give a more complete view of the development situation and to point out they had the "polishers" originally and once those left, they decided to do without.

[fable]

Originally posted by Grojlach:
ROFL. It wasn't a personal attack, though the fact I quoted your post might have given you that feeling. Sorry if you completely misunderstood my purpose that way.

@Grojlach, maybe it was my misunderstanding--or maybe it was that what you called "nitpicking" in your first post is now recognized as a problem in your second post, which wasn't dealt with because of team defections (for the most necessary of reasons). Whatever. I think we're in agreement. You also answer a question that's been bothering me since TDD appeared: why were there only two developers on the forums, when originally we had far more mentioned, up here?

I wish they'd let us all know about all their team losses. And I don't want to make this sound condenscending, but if the two gents (at least one of whom reads here) thinks it will help to have a proofreader now look at a single file with all their English text, I'll be glad to help. Someone should, considering all the effort they've put into the game. Have 'em email me.