Euro Cup

Lost One · Post by **Lost One** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:16 pm

It so bugs me that a complete nation is tarred by the brush of a minute company of idiots. Thank you Lost One for looking forward to it.

I don't really look forward to it...and I'm sure the Portuguese don't either, but it's just that, whenever England loses major games (and you'll likely see it if they don't pass the round), english hooligans tend to take to the streets breaking things, even on foreign soil. I'm not trying to make England sound bad on purpose, it's just a recognized thing that happens.

they had a bone to gnaw on after their embarrassing exit from the World Cup

Nothing embarassing about losing to Brazil.

And I still think England could win the Cup, they were unlucky this match.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:22 pm

Let's hope there are no hooligans among the English supporters this time!

Originally posted by Lost One
Nothing embarassing about losing to Brazil.

I think Ysh was referring to France's embarrasing exit when she said "they have a bone to gnaw on" and England happened to be first on the list.
England did an excellent World Cup I think, winning over Argentina in the first round and then going out to the eventual Champions, whereas poor France didn't score a single goal as you may remember. Even if I cheer for England, I think it was good to see France back in shape, it was sad to see them play so badly in the World Cup when you know what a fine team they really have.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:31 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
Let's hope there are no hooligans among the English supporters this time!

I think Ysh was referring to France's embarrasing exit when she said "they have a bone to gnaw on" and England happened to be first on the list.
England did an excellent World Cup I think, winning over Argentina in the first round and then going out to the eventual Champions, whereas poor France didn't score a single goal as you may remember. Even if I cheer for England, I think it was good to see France back in shape, it was sad to see them play so badly in the World Cup when you know what a fine team they really have.

As much as it galls me this evening, I am with you CE. France are a force to be reckoned with, this campaign....

@Lost One, I would still ask you don't tar all England supporters, we are a major footballing nation, and tonight we took a hit, yet we are not all hooligans...by past record, we could ask the same questions of the Turkish....for instance...

Lost One · Post by **Lost One** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:43 pm

Yeah, the Turkish are bad too.

Ysh, I understand you're not all hooligans...but having lived in England myself for 3 years, I recall very well the nature of hooligans there and which is why I believe I can speak about it.

Though I agree it's best not to make any further pre-judgements.

Today, the Olympic Torch was passed here in Brazil for the first time in our history. I wonder how many countries it's been through...and the flame keeps going out (well, a few times)...hehe...you'd think they would have made it wind-proof like the cool lighter I have.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:10 pm

Originally posted by Lost One
Yeah, the Turkish are bad too.

Ysh, I understand you're not all hooligans...but having lived in England myself for 3 years, I recall very well the nature of hooligans there and which is why I believe I can speak about it.
<snip>

With all due respect, but living in a country for 3 years doesn't give enough insight into a culture of hooligalisme compared to normal football supporters to make such broad statements.

I mean - even in Denmark we occasionally have hooligans amongst our football supporters, and generally our supporters are very wellcome all over the world as some of the best (best meaning peacefull, joyful and so on).
I remember many a loss the danes have had and then they were still out celebrating with the supporters from other nations, but I also see danish fans being involved in hooligasime (mostly in national tournaments though).

But hooligalisme is a problem, but as said - you neither can nor should paint all (or a majority) supporters from one country as hooligans, not for the english nor any other country.
And especially broad statements such as Man, are the English fans going to be mad...we'll probably see some acts of vandalism in Portugal tonight. should be avoided.
And even if there is vandalisme tonight due to hooligans, you should still not use the connection of english fans equals vandalisme. Adress the problem without making generalize statements.

Lost One · Post by **Lost One** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:10 pm

With all due respect, but living in a country for 3 years doesn't give enough insight into a culture of hooligalisme compared to normal football supporters to make such broad statements.

Well, that is your opinion. In mine, it does. I have had lots of english friends who agreed that english hooligalism occurred. There's even a book about it (yes, a book specifically about english hooligalism) and I recall many english papers addressing the issues in other Cups. Now, because I'm not English, am I not allowed to make such generalised comments that otherwise would be laughed at and not picked apart?
This kind of nationalist sentiment is what creates wars. When I lived in England, people said to me that there were only monkeys in Brasil. What did I say? 'Yes, we do have lots of monkeys'.

Bluestorm · Post by **Bluestorm** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:49 pm

I must say that being born in England lived there for 24 years,going to see my local team Leeds play, getting lead to the ground by the police, being put inside a large cage(best way i can put it), Did make you think that they thought you are all hooligans....but i always remember one sports guy saying "the fact that they say less that 1% of all fans are hooligans is a load of crap the answer is no fan is a hooligan, hooligans are hooligans"

I'm just glad it is not as bad as it was.
It is a fact that i'm not proud of to keep on hearing English soccer "fans" are involed in fighting etc.

Just to add i was lucky never to be at a game where there was any acts of the hooligans.....

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:57 am

Originally posted by Lost One
Well, that is your opinion. In mine, it does. I have had lots of english friends who agreed that english hooligalism occurred. There's even a book about it (yes, a book specifically about english hooligalism) and I recall many english papers addressing the issues in other Cups. Now, because I'm not English, am I not allowed to make such generalised comments that otherwise would be laughed at and not picked apart?
This kind of nationalist sentiment is what creates wars. When I lived in England, people said to me that there were only monkeys in Brasil. What did I say? 'Yes, we do have lots of monkeys'.

Firstly - there is nothing nationalistic about it- I'm not English nor have lived in England.

And secondly - there is nobody that have denied that hooligaisme exists - and I'm sure there is written much more then one book on that subject. There have been also been done documentarys on it. But that is not the point.

The point however, is that the picture you painted was that because England lost a game the fans would be angry and turn to hooligasime/vandalisme. And that is a generlization that is wrong to make and harmfull to the sport. Sure - some people likely gets mad and can't control it - but as I said - that can and *does* happen from other countries supporters aswell.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:36 am

If I were the players of England, I would have felt an enormous amount of anger boiling up inside me after the match. Giving everything away in a few minutes, it’s a shame really.

Truth be told, I expected more from Henry and Zidane. The only magical moment from Zidane was IMO his free kick. He made a lot of mistakes in the field, his passes went wrong often, and he lost quite some duels. All in all, I'd say he played below his normal level.
And so did Henry, he was very invisible, and I hoped to see nice actions from his side, ahh well

Hopefully we will see better moments from France and hopefully they will bring in Rothen, what a great player with a great pass. And that's what France missed yesterday, a good pass...

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:03 am

I agree pretty much @Sytze. The only "magic" from Zidane was the free kick (also a great kick though), but then again - the season in Real Madrid didn't impress either in my oppinion. But the difference between Zidane and many other players - is with him the cliche *is* true. He can be invisible and then still be the deciding factor in a match

Henri almost seemed as he wasn't even on the field.

To bad that Beckham missed that penalty - but it was a very nice save from Barthez, and I agree with CE that he is one of the best goalkeepers in this tournament.

I had hoped England would have won, because that would have causes a little more "uncertaincy" in the group.

Tom2 · Post by **Tom2** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:20 am

On the whole I thought France deserved to win. They totally dominated the second half and even the commentators were panicking a bit – it was all “can we hold out…” etc.

Steven Gerrad will be holding his head in his hands for a while, that pass back gave France the win.

While it is true that the game would have looked different if Beckham hadn’t missed that penalty the game could also very well have looked different if France had had the penalty they should have had. Henry passed a ball across the penalty area and it was taken down with the arm of one of the defenders.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:51 am

Originally posted by Xandax
The point however, is that the picture you painted was that because England lost a game the fans would be angry and turn to hooligasime/vandalisme. And that is a generlization that is wrong to make and harmfull to the sport. Sure - some people likely gets mad and can't control it - but as I said - that can and *does* happen from other countries supporters aswell.

England does seem to have more than its fair share of hooligans though. Kudos to the police operation, as there was no trouble in Portugal last night. Only in Croydon and Lincolnshire.

They issued 2,700 banning orders to keep known troublemakers from going to Portugal, and it seems to be working so far.

Originally posted by Yshania
Georgi, you disappoint me *sigh*

Why, how many of those flags do *you* have on your car?

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:14 am

Originally posted by Georgi
Why, how many of those flags do *you* have on your car?

Is there any room for flags on her car? I thought it was one of those that barely fits passengers, much less anything else.

Now everyone, stop ganging up on the English. They have Blair, need I say more?

Seriously, I heard the Portugese police arrested only 4 suspected hooligans before the game, so the British police must have done a fantastic job sorting them out in advance. Like some others previously in this thread, I object to including hooligans in the term supporters. Hooligans are generally not that interested in football, and most of them would pick a fight or trash a place regardless of how the game went. Some of these nutcases have even been known to "go pro" and just be hooligans at any game irregardless of what teams were playing. Call them "hooligans", "vandals", "criminals" or whatever, but deny them the terms "supporters" or "fans" because that is what they try to justify themselves with.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:02 am

Denmark - Italy: 0 - 0 halftime

Denmark play very well, Italy have problems creating any really dangerous chances. Go Denmark!

Many countries have hooligan problems, and I agree with previous posters that it is important to separate this small subgroup from the much larger group of true football supporters. (I have myself had the dubious pleasure to treat a Swedish football hooligan as an inpatient at the ward I worked at as a clinician. He was, like I think most hooligans are, a person with severe problems regarding tolerance for frustration and ability to express aggressive impulses in a suitable way. He had a long record of various criminal acts, starting in early teens and very persistant.)

posted by Tom
While it is true that the game would have looked different if Beckham hadn’t missed that penalty the game could also very well have looked different if France had had the penalty they should have had. Henry passed a ball across the penalty area and it was taken down with the arm of one of the defenders.

I don't think that hands should have been a penalty according to the new, softer hands regulations where the referees are supposed to be lean when a hands does not appear to be intentional.

@Georgi: What are you doing in this thread?

Hehe, even Dottie is watching football nowadays

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:02 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
Hehe, even Dottie is watching football nowadays

Shhh!

You have my sympathy Georgi.

Its a virus. I cant help it...

luckily.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:10 pm

Well - didn't think I'd say this before the match but ....

we lost two points

Denmark did play really well, and read the Italian plays nicely, so they only came to a few chances (Good goalkeeping from Sørensen).
Unfortunally - we weren't sharp enough infront of the Italian goal, so 0-0. But I did think Denmark played best (withouth even being biased

).

Will be fun to see what Sweden does with Bulgaria - my money is on Sweden, and with the danish draw against Italy and what seemed like a very uninspired italian team - could there be some surprises in this group?

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:11 pm

Bah, only a lousy 0-0, although it was a very attractive game.

Denmark played very well, and Italy is always dangerous. However, Italy has no midfield whatsoever, which means the great front players (Totti, Vieri, Del Piero need I say more??) don't have a great supply of good passes. I blame the coach for this, and if Italy wants to reach the finals here, they really need to do a bit more about there midfield. Bringing in Gattuso helped a bit in the second half, but if you bring Pirlo in it too (yeah, I know, I'm a big fan of AC Milan

) I think Italy can do much better.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:41 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
@Georgi: What are you doing in this thread? Hehe, even Dottie is watching football nowadays

Causing trouble.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not watching the football. But with my job, I hear about it far too much, they're going on about it all the time!!

*hugs*@Dottie

Posted by Silur
Is there any room for flags on her car? I thought it was one of those that barely fits passengers, much less anything else.

I'm sure she could squash some in somewhere.

Now everyone, stop ganging up on the English. They have Blair, need I say more?

And now we have Robert Kilroy-Silk. What more could you want?

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:56 pm

Originally posted by Georgi
d now we have Robert Kilroy-Silk. What more could you want?

Would winning this silly tournament save the English people from depression and suicide? In that case I might temporarily move some of my sympaties from the referee Collina to the English team. After all, I do have a heart and no one deserves that much suffering...

arno_v · Post by **arno_v** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:59 pm

Originally posted by Silur
In that case I might temporarily move some of my sympaties from the referee Collina to the English team.

Now you 're hoping that Collina wins the tournament??