Pure Assassin vs. Kensai/Thief

Pungyol · Post by **Pungyol** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:31 pm

Nighthawk,

Thanks, man!

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
Kensai/Thief will deal out the most damage in the actual backstabs because the Kensai bonuses get multiplied. With Kai, he's also consistent as you know that d10 for Celestial Fury will be a 10, not a 1.

Poison however is nice as it continues to do damage and will disrupt spellcasting.

Of the two, I prefer Kensai/Thief as he gets an extra attack...two extra attacks if you don't dual until level 13. Some monsters can't be backstabbed.

@Sojourner: Kai is instantaneous and can be activated from the shadows just before the backstab.

Pungyol · Post by **Pungyol** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:41 pm

Vicsun,

The Kensai bonuses are more inclined for the Thief class as compared to the bonuses of the Berserker kit. The Kensai's bonuses (e.g. +1 to hit every 3 levels, -1 speed factor every 4 levels, etc.)obviously complement the Thief class.

Originally posted by Vicsun:
Just one thing I don't get - why do you want a kensai/thief when you can be a berseker/thief. That way you will be able to use the shadow dragons skales, and do reasanoble amounts if dmg with berseker rage on.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:49 pm

I'd go for the pure assassin every time.

A nice elven assassin or even a halfling assassin are really cool. Dual class Kensai/Thief restricted to humans and can't wear armour or bracers. Which kinda sucks.

Bracers of weapon expertise on a assassin is almost as good as your +3 to hit that the Kensai has gained from level 1 tp 12.

Still, this is my choice and I don't expect everyone else to agree with it.

Pungyol · Post by **Pungyol** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:52 pm

Thanks for all your inputs! Since it is obvious that the BEST BACKSTABBER in the game would be a Kensai/Thief, I would like your opinion AGAIN on a different query.

Well, is it worth it to play the game with a pure Assassin?

He only has 15 thieving points to distribute every level and he only gets PROFICIENCY level with weapons and fighting styles; his THACO is soooo slooowww to drop, meaning that you cannot really abuse the x7 backstab because you cannot have a good THACO to hit succesfully (maybe not until almost at the end of the game).

What do you think?

Originally posted by Pungyol:
Hi guys! Well, I've played a couple of games with different classes. And I have to say that I've had an easier time through the game with my KENSAI/THIEF, even better than my BERSERKER/MAGE. I really love thieves because of their unparalleled BACKSTABBING ability.

Now, my query with you guys is - Since I really love BACKSTABBING that much, and I heard that ASSASSINS --> beside having the POISON WEAPON ability which incerases in the speed of damage dealt in higher levels, can also do x7 BACKSTABS in higher levels.

Is it really worth it to play a PURE ASSASSIN? How does it compare with the KENSAI/THIEF when it deals damage? I'm pretty sure that you know how much damage a KENSAI/THIEF can do, right? With his KAI ability.

What do you think? Who is the most LETHAL backstabber between the two?
KENSAI/THIEF vs. PURE ASSASSIN

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:07 pm

First off, personally I disagree completely with your statement that the Kensai/Thief is the BEST backstabber. Assassin is soooooo much better. But I'll get to the reasons why Assassin's rock!

First advantage, they can use missile weapons whereas Kensai/Thief cannot. May not seem that big a deal, but if you have gesen bow, + assassin's poison, you can go to town on anyone. Very handy for mages with stoneskin.

Second advantage, they can use armour. This is handy when your running away to hide in shadows again. It will mean you wont be hit by as many arrows etc as the Kensai/Thief who will basically get hit a lot!

Thirdly, bracers. Your assassin can choose bracers of archery for the bow, or gauntlets of weapon expertise for mellee weapons. Bracers of Defense AC 3 are also nice.

Fourth and a major advantage is poison. Absolutely lethal. SMACK that first backstab down, and if by some chance the dude survives, you've got some nasty poison effects running through them, which disrupts spell casters and also irritates non spell casters.

Another advantage is if you want to dual your assassin to a mage. As well as having great backstab, you've also got the ability to cast some spells of your own. Great defensive spells like Blur, mirror image, ghost armour, stoneskin etc etc. Plus offensive spells to run them down.

But that last option isn't for everyone. Pure assassin can hold their own quite easily against all other classes.

THAC0 isn't that bad either. It's actually quite good. And my assassin hardly ever misses a backstab. Very rare.

Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. I go for the Assassin. Plus theres just something a little wrong with the fact that a Kensai (someone whose spent their whole life devoted to the art of fighting with swords) wants to suddenly be interested in firing a few magic missiles, or picking a few pockets... IMO, Kensai should be like the sorcerer, monk and barbarian. Unable to Dual or Multiclass.

Pungyol · Post by **Pungyol** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:22 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:
First off, personally I disagree completely with your statement that the Kensai/Thief is the BEST backstabber. Assassin is soooooo much better. But I'll get to the reasons why Assassin's rock!

First advantage, they can use missile weapons whereas Kensai/Thief cannot. May not seem that big a deal, but if you have gesen bow, + assassin's poison, you can go to town on anyone. Very handy for mages with stoneskin.

Second advantage, they can use armour. This is handy when your running away to hide in shadows again. It will mean you wont be hit by as many arrows etc as the Kensai/Thief who will basically get hit a lot!

Thirdly, bracers. Your assassin can choose bracers of archery for the bow, or gauntlets of weapon expertise for mellee weapons. Bracers of Defense AC 3 are also nice.

Fourth and a major advantage is poison. Absolutely lethal. SMACK that first backstab down, and if by some chance the dude survives, you've got some nasty poison effects running through them, which disrupts spell casters and also irritates non spell casters.

Another advantage is if you want to dual your assassin to a mage. As well as having great backstab, you've also got the ability to cast some spells of your own. Great defensive spells like Blur, mirror image, ghost armour, stoneskin etc etc. Plus offensive spells to run them down.

But that last option isn't for everyone. Pure assassin can hold their own quite easily against all other classes.

THAC0 isn't that bad either. It's actually quite good. And my assassin hardly ever misses a backstab. Very rare.

Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. I go for the Assassin. Plus theres just something a little wrong with the fact that a Kensai (someone whose spent their whole life devoted to the art of fighting with swords) wants to suddenly be interested in firing a few magic missiles, or picking a few pockets... IMO, Kensai should be like the sorcerer, monk and barbarian. Unable to Dual or Multiclass.

Vehemence,

Yeah! I think you're right.
Actually, i just reconsidered that previous statement of mine (but in a different topic - under SHADOW MAGES).

Furthermore, I think that Kensai/Thief and Assassins are not to compared at all, in any way. IMO, now.

I mentioned before as to how much I love the THIEF class because of his backstabbing ability. Now, I think I'm gonna love them even more, now that you guys (you, Rail, Kayless, etc.) have enlightened my views on the Assassin kit.

Thanks again.

Anyway, with what race did you play your Assassin? I'm thinking of an ELF to go for the bonuses in using SWORDS & BOWS.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:19 am

Pungyol,

I've played several times through with an assassin, once with an elf, and once with a halfling. I've found that the main problem with using the long sword is its speed factor - it just doesn't get as good as the short sword or the katanna. I like the halfling for his thieving bonuses, and he also can put 19 into dex.

Don't worry about the thief's THACO not keeping up with a fighter's - you do get a bonus when striking from the shadows. The only creatures who I've had real trouble hitting were the Drow, due to their superior armor class.

Pungyol · Post by **Pungyol** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:46 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner:
Pungyol,

I've played several times through with an assassin, once with an elf, and once with a halfling. I've found that the main problem with using the long sword is its speed factor - it just doesn't get as good as the short sword or the katanna. I like the halfling for his thieving bonuses, and he also can put 19 into dex.

Don't worry about the thief's THACO not keeping up with a fighter's - you do get a bonus when striking from the shadows. The only creatures who I've had real trouble hitting were the Drow, due to their superior armor class.

Sojourner,

Thanks a lot!
I'm now starting off with an Elf-Assassin!

Wish me luck!

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 1:10 am

I am reviving this thread, now that ToB is out, to see if anyone has any more thoughts on this topic.

I was very impressed with my assassin's backstab ability in ToB. I had her solo all the Fire Giants while the rest of my party stayed out of the way.

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Sojourner ]

ReignsOfPower · Post by **ReignsOfPower** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:11 am

Are we forgetting that the Kensai can wear armour with the 'Us Any Item' ability??

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:18 am

Originally posted by ReignsOfPower:
Are we forgetting that the Kensai can wear armour with the 'Us Any Item' ability??

This thread was started before ToB came out, so essentially, no.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:22 am

Resurecting threads... tut tut tut

Let sleeping dog's lie my friend, let sleeping dog's lie...

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:40 am

Originally posted by Sojourner:

Don't worry about the thief's THACO not keeping up with a fighter's - you do get a bonus when striking from the shadows. The only creatures who I've had real trouble hitting were the Drow, due to their superior armor class.

What THAC0 bonus? And how do you know? Thanks.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:48 am

My dog said it had 6 heads see he IS lieing

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:16 am

IMO an assassin is better than a kensai\thief. The 7x backstabb and the poison ability are simply great!!! I usually use a dagger\shortsword to backstabb from shadows and then i thake my short bow (the one you take from the beastmaster in copper coronet, that gives you +1 attack) and shoot poisoned arrows. These make great damage due to the poison and disrupt spellcasting. IMO you must not consider your assassin as main killer in your party, but as the one that makes enemy spellcasters worry and enemy fighters lose some hit points.....the rest is up to your fighters.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:27 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:
IMO, Kensai should be like the sorcerer, monk and barbarian. Unable to Dual or Multiclass.

Any dualling restrictions are due to engine limitations, not because of game balance. You can only dual to valid multi-class combinations. Monk, Barbarian and Sorcerer are relatively new compared to Clerics, Fighters, Rogues and Mages, so AD&D does not feature multis for them.

In PnP a Human can dual from anything he likes into anything else he likes as long as Alignment restrictions are observed. They can dual as often as they like as well.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:29 am

Originally posted by Astafas:
What THAC0 bonus? And how do you know? Thanks.

If you have the *To Hit Rolls* and *Combat Information* options enabled in your Feedback menu, have your thief attack someone while still visible and then when stealthed, and watch the battletext. You'll notice he/she gets a +4 THACO bonus when striking from the Shadows.

*passes craig the salt shaker* You, sir, may now eat your words. Enjoy!

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:34 am

Sojouner: You're right, Poison Weapon is faster than Kai.

The trick is to activate it after you're hidden in the shadows and already behind your victim. The kai will activate before you come visible, allowing the backstab.

Since I would only use kai during a backstab, it works just as well as poison weapon for me.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:35 am

Originally posted by Edwin:
IMO you must not consider your assassin as main killer in your party, but as the one that makes enemy spellcasters worry and enemy fighters lose some hit points.....the rest is up to your fighters.

Unless, of course, you can't resist reducing all those Fire Giants to chunky bits, then go ahead and let your assassin *handle* them, while the rest of your party takes a break.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 8:07 am

Originally posted by Sojourner:
Unless, of course, you can't resist reducing all those Fire Giants to chunky bits, then go ahead and let your assassin *handle* them, while the rest of your party takes a break.

Respectfully, any character (well, maybe not the Beastmaster) from ToB could whop all those Fire Giants to chunky bits while the rest of the party takes a break.

But you make a good point

Gotta love the chunky bunz