nalia is better than edwin

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:57 am

Originally posted by ColeFrost:
<STRONG>But then gain Nalia can only wear one ring the other cant be removed. Just imagine giving Edwin 2 ring of wizardrys....
</STRONG>

You can wear only Ring of Wizardy. Imagine my dissapointment when I had ordered my apprentices to create the RoW...

ColeFrost · Post by **ColeFrost** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 8:56 am

You can wear only Ring of Wizardy. Imagine my dissapointment when I had ordered my apprentices to create the RoW...

I appologise for any disappointment it causes you. Initially i did not realise you can only wear one ROW. Now that you have clarified this issue to me i thank you for it.
I was wondering if you could wear ring of acuity and ROW together?

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 9:08 am

Yes, you can wear the ROW and the Ring of Acuity, as I think my current mage Jan wears the pair.

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 9:25 am

No! I think Nalia is the best woman in the game. I would romance her if it was possible. Her small portrait may be ugly but in the large portrait she is good looking. And the voice is OK too. Maybe Viconia has a sexier voice but still I think Nalia has the most pleasant voice. If you want to talk irritating, try Imoen. Her voice is enough to keep her out of my party.

Heh, each to his own taste then. Personally, I'd say that Aerie is the best looking, and in fact the only good looking, portrait in the game, particularly on the largest size (when your first selecting a portrait for your character). Viconia's voice would perhaos be nice if she wouldn't sprout out things in Drow every now and again ('Ustahn zhad ost' doesn't sound that 'sexy' to me). Aerie's voice and picture may have the kind of pathetic appeal to them, but hey, I like that...
In regards to Nalia, I'd suggest that if she insists on eye paint she should at least put it on properly and not over do it. I can't help but think her hair looks like it's nearly being pulled from her head, too... and her entire head has the look of 'heaviness'. Don't ask me to explain that

. She also reminds me of my sister in some ways... which is more than enough to put me off I'm afraid (cough). Dear oh dear, I am sounding somewhat... for want of a better word... 'appearance judgemental' today. Sorry Nalia...

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 9:27 am

why nalia is better:

as stated above her a/c is 6 pts lower than edwins. (4 lower if edwin has ring o' gaxx)

high dex makes her more effective w/ missle weapons. (she does not need to always cast spells in combat)

higher strength, she can carry 80 lbs more gear iirc.

she can use thief weapons, some very good shortswords & shortbows.

she can wear thief armour, including the elven chain & use bucklers, thus further increasing her a/c

her ring gives 50% fire resistance & +2 to a/c (which is cumm w/ ring of protection)

she won't leave if your rep gets too high (if you play evil then reverse is true)

thief skills are an added bonus, you don't need to have another thief in your party.

can cast div spells, identify, true sight & wizard eye are all very usefull spells that edwin cannot cast. (high lore & glasses reduce the need for identfy to play devil's advocate)

she is avalible sooner than edwin.

the ease in finding & recharging wands reduces the need to cast soo many spells.

she can wear necklaces.

more hit points.

---------

edwin has only a few things in his favor
more spells - but has no other option, and no div spells.
evil alignment
can wear two rings

ColeFrost · Post by **ColeFrost** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 9:48 am

Althought Nalia stats are much better but still i prefer edwin due to the fact that he can cast more high level spells. This means that u can cast more breach, skeleton warriors, chain lighting, finger of death, ruby ray of reversal, abi-dalzim's horrid wilting etc as compared to Nalia.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 9:49 am

[quote]Tovarishch Koz-Ivan writes:
why nalia is better:
as stated above her a/c is 6 pts lower than edwins. (4 lower if edwin has ring o' gaxx)

As I don't use Edwin for melee target practice, this is (to me) irrelevant.

high dex makes her more effective w/ missle weapons. (she does not need to always cast spells in combat)

It isn't a matter of "needing" to cast spells in combat; it is a matter of "wanting" to. Edwin has far more of 'em, and it's logical to use a mage to do what he does best, when you have one available. If I'd wanted a missile thrower, I would have created a mage/ranger.

higher strength, she can carry 80 lbs more gear iirc.

I've never had a problem in four parties with gear that's too heavy--just not enough slots (at least, until I encounter the Bag of Holding).

she can use thief weapons, some very good shortswords & shortbows.

And Edwin gets the use of some weapons just as good. Check out the magical arsenal he can use in daggers, and staves.

she can wear thief armour, including the elven chain & use bucklers, thus further increasing her a/c

And Edwin can wear the Robes of Vecna, which play into his forte: casting spells. Again, I'd rather use a mage for what they're intended--as a magical powerhouse.

her ring gives 50% fire resistance & +2 to a/c (which is cumm w/ ring of protection)

And Edwin's family ring grants him some kick-ass additional spell slots. More important, I think, in a mage.

she won't leave if your rep gets too high (if you play evil then reverse is true)

Answered your own question in regards to evil parties, really. As to good ones, I'd rather keep Imoen. She also has thieving abilities, and a lot more on the magical side, than Nalia.

thief skills are an added bonus, you don't need to have another thief in your party.

She has terrible thief skills which can't be improved, since she dualed to a mage at level 4. If you really want the benefits of a thief who can cast, Jan or Imoen are infinitely better. In fact, Nalia's the weakest thief NPC in the game.

can cast div spells, identify, true sight & wizard eye are all very usefull spells that edwin cannot cast. (high lore & glasses reduce the need for identfy to play devil's advocate)

You answer your own point. I'd add that Edwin has so many more spell slots than Nalia that it isn't even funny, and that Nalia can't reach the highest spells in ToB which are available to Edwin, since she only has an INT of 17.

she is avalible sooner than edwin.

At the same time, since quests for both characters are non-linear and occur in chapter two. In one run-through, I got Edwin's offer to join much earlier than Nalia's.

the ease in finding & recharging wands reduces the need to cast soo many spells.

Wands come in only a few flavors, and none of them above level 4 spells, as I recall. A mage needs far more diversity in their arsenal than four or five spells. Secondly, there is no ease in recharging wands--not if you refuse to cheese your way through, selling wands and stealing 'em back fully charged after consuming potions of master thievery.

she can wear necklaces.

I could just as easily suggest that he has the best magic-enhancing necklace in the game. Why would I want to replace it?

more hit points.

And he has infinitely more spells, particularly in the higher reaches of the game, when having a high-powered mage is very useful, IMO. If it isn't clear yet, I am a strong believer in the idea that an optimized party should have members that are the best at what they do; and the mage in your group should be, logically, the best spellcaster around.

Alternatively, if you want a challenge, I do approve of adding in Nalia--along with Haer'dalis, Aerie, Cernd, and other "problem" characters who need to be played strategically in order to circumvent their flaws and bring out their strengths. But I think on a one-to-one comparison, there's little question that Edwin is a far better mage than Nalia, while she's also the worst thief in the game.

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:01 am

Uh, that was a long answer. Eh.... you can get a cloudkill wand (better than level 4) but frankly that's a crap spell. I will confess however that I have NEVER had Edwin in my party for more than a few seconds, and then it was only to check out his stats. He simply doesn't fit in with my usual path (I've always been a good party

).
Oh, as a somewhat trivial matter, does anyone else think that Edwin's new portrait kind of takes away his personality? I mean, he looks like Santa for god's sake!

His old portrait added far more 'mystique' to his character. Also, I'd say Edwin was no way a chaotic evil character, more like a neutral evil (betrayal for self-advancement).

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:06 am

Oh, I should add that I don't really use mage spells much, certainly not on your average 'Joe Orc' as Jan would put it. That might explain some of my bias against pure spellcasters, though they can use some powerful weapons. I'd definately agree that Edwin is the best mage in the game, even better than a PC mage (what other classes can boast and NPC better than a PC?)
He just irritates me.

ColeFrost · Post by **ColeFrost** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:15 am

Oh, as a somewhat trivial matter, does anyone else think that Edwin's new portrait kind of takes away his
personality? I mean, he looks like Santa for god's sake!

Yes i prefer Edwin's old portrait...

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:52 am

Edwin is lawful evil.
He have Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 10 and Cha 10.

Nalia have Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 9, Cha 13.

She have a lower armor class but for a mage, that is pointless since they use spells to conteract their inability to use armor (several spells can lower AC).
Edwin have higher Int and extra spells slots and that is more important to mages that having a higher Str or theif skills (and Nalia sucks as a thief ).
He can throw darts if we wish him to do so (there goes the archer argument), none can use blade weapons very well (try dual wield with Nalia, even with spells she could not hit anything thing) but again that is not what a mage likes to do.
Edwin is a better mage since he have higher Int and extra spells slots, and yes he is Lawful Evil but what does that have to do with anything?
I also dont use him for a long time but I know how powerful he is in relation to Nalia.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 11:26 am

fable, you raise some valid points, and provided far more info than the average "nalia sucks, edwin is better" post.

and a lot of our diffrences come down to style of play, and pers. pref.

she can use thief weapons, some very good shortswords & shortbows.

And Edwin gets the use of some weapons just as good. Check out the magical arsenal he can use in daggers, and staves

so what? nalia can use every weapon edwin can. (at a better thaco) and i forgot to mention longswords & the zerth blade.

i happen to perfer many of the cool shortsword abilities, (arbane in paticular) & i go for the staff after the underdark.

nalia's a/c is not as irrelevant as you make it seem, plenty of times one of my mages gets themselves into melee range, and the 6 pts means edwin has a 30% greater chance of getting hit, and i haven't played tob yet but if enemy archers start aiming at mages rather than front rank ftr's edwin could be in a world of hurt.

she can wear thief armour, including the elven chain & use bucklers, thus further increasing her a/c

And Edwin can wear the Robes of Vecna, which play into his forte: casting spells. Again, I'd rather use a mage for what they're intended--as a magical powerhouse.

again nalia can wear the robe, but she does not need to wear the robe. imo edwin needs that robe, he's ok w/ the evil arch magi robe but it's a night & day diff.

i happen to prefer giving the robe vecna to aerie (of all people) for the casting speed boost to cleric spells also.

most folks are real big on edwin's # of spells, big deal, how long are your fights?
i've never seen nalia cast all her spells before (except one time when she was level drained) even w/o spells nalia finds a way to pinch in, arrows or firetooth, are great vs magic resistant creatures.

most of our diffrenece are style of play issues, in your parties edwin might be the "man" but to some he's just a frail old man w/ whoose ego has by far exceeded his capabilities.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 11:42 am

Originally posted by ColeFrost:
<STRONG>
Oh, as a somewhat trivial matter, does anyone else think that Edwin's new portrait kind of takes away his
personality? I mean, he looks like Santa for god's sake!
Yes i prefer Edwin's old portrait...</STRONG>

I loved his old portrait before I knew he exsited!(When I started playing BG1) thats the face I used all the time, until my halforc Barbarian.all in all I think that the old portraits are MUCH better than the new ones.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 12:21 pm

Never having "experienced" Edwin myself, I wondered what his Specialization School is, or, more specifically, what his Opposition Schools are.

I could agree to the argument that Edwin does not need Armor Class, but only if he can cast Stoneskin...

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 12:43 pm

Edwin opposite school is Divination.
And the number of spells slots does matter, mages have limited spell slots 2 extra slots mean a lot. (also there are only 8 divination spells in the game, that is only 8 spells that edwin cannot cast).
It also says the "....5th Slot (Mage): Nalia. She's the best NPC mage, truly. Imoen would be better, but by the time you get up to her, she's far too low in level...."
he does not say usefull but he says "the best NPC mage", that is incorrect as hell, Imoen is better (Imoen stats Str 9, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 11, Cha 16) and its "by the time you get up to her" is when we get the money require, that is easy by simply making the keep and the Mae´var quests that give the money required.
Also I can say that being a Bhaalspawn will have some effect on Imoen stats in ToB.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 12:43 pm

[quote]Koz-Ivan writes:
so what? nalia can use every weapon edwin can. (at a better thaco) and i forgot to mention longswords & the zerth blade. i happen to perfer many of the cool shortsword abilities, (arbane in paticular) & i go for the staff after the underdark.

That's great, and it's a personal preference on your part. But the fact that Nalia can use these items doesn't make her a tank; she's still got terrible hit points in battle; and the one thing she supposedly can do well--act as a mage--she does more poorly than either Imoen or Edwin.

nalia's a/c is not as irrelevant as you make it seem, plenty of times one of my mages gets themselves into melee range, and the 6 pts means edwin has a 30% greater chance of getting hit, and i haven't played tob yet but if enemy archers start aiming at mages rather than front rank ftr's edwin could be in a world of hurt.

And there's a great belt that nearly immunizes the wearer against incoming missiles. Guess who's wearing it in my parties?

again nalia can wear the robe, but she does not need to wear the robe. imo edwin needs that robe, he's ok w/ the evil arch magi robe but it's a night & day diff.

I'm afraid I don't understand. What are you using Nalia for? If she's your primary spellcaster then yes, you definitely need the Robe of Vecna: it's essential for that person. If she's the thief in your party, then she's the weakest thief in the game. If she's a tank, she's woefully undernourished for that role.

most folks are real big on edwin's # of spells, big deal, how long are your fights?

The point isn't the length of the fights, but the availability of whatever spells you need, in quantity, on the spot, when you need 'em. Nalia can't get the spells Edwin does, and she can't memorize as many copies.

most of our diffrenece are style of play issues, in your parties edwin might be the "man" but to some he's just a frail old man w/ whoose ego has by far exceeded his capabilities.

I'd suggest he's neither: we're not talking roleplaying elements, here, but the relative strength of two mages. Edwin is the best mage you can get in the game, and Nalia is a secondrate mage, and the worst thief.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 1:38 pm

Very interesting

Nalia can't get the spells Edwin does...

On the contrary! Nalia can learn and cast any spell Edwin can. Edwin is the one with the "limited" repertoire.

...and she can't memorize as many copies.

All too true, and this is Edwin's huge and sole advantage over Nalia (stat-wise). At the cap, Nalia can cast 3 level 7 spells and 2 level 8, Edwin can cast 5 and 4. Those spells are where the cheese is. Edwin's Project Images and Simulacrums are more dangerous than any PC's, save perhaps those of a Sorcerer.

the fact that Nalia can use these items doesn't make her a tank; she's still got terrible hit points in battle

In defense of Nalia I'd have to point out that Edwin has even less Hit Points (at least 12, to be precise). This is problematic should he ever be caught in an area damage spell, and makes him a more of a "problem" character than Nalia in my book.

the one thing she supposedly can do well--act as a mage--she does more poorly than either Imoen or Edwin.

More poorly than Edwin: certainly. But what in the world makes Imoen a better Mage than Nalia? Their stats are virtually identical!

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:02 pm

But the fact that Nalia can use these items doesn't make her a tank; she's still got terrible hit points in battle; and the one thing she supposedly can do well--act as a mage--she does more poorly than either Imoen or Edwin.

ok, who said anything about using her as a tank? what i did say was she can benefit from the "side effects" of non mage weapons, the free action provided by arbane's sword for example. sunray (daystar) ac + spells of zerth blade, mirror image (ilbratha) extra attack (belm & kundane (w/ tensors could be a big deal))

just for the record i did not, nor do i recomend dual wielding w/ nalia, unless it's just for side effects and you don't actually expect her to hit anything.

nalia is easily on par w/ imoen as a mage. edwin has the advantage of more spells, but they are of similar level & both will hit the same max levels, nalia will cap out 4000 xp sooner than edwin.

there's a great belt that nearly immunizes the wearer against incoming missiles. Guess who's wearing it in my parties?

again i ask, what if edwin is caught in melee range, sure the belt helps big time vs archers. but there are still battles where the party will be caught in melee range, nalia's better ac helps.

I'm afraid I don't understand. What are you using Nalia for? If she's your primary spellcaster then yes, you definitely need the Robe of Vecna: it's essential for that person. If she's the thief in your party, then she's the weakest thief in the game. If she's a tank, she's woefully undernourished for that role.

as a thief i use her as backup only, her lock ability is good enough that if i'm using a thief myself i can focus on traps & stealth, and i get the benefit of higher casting level vs jan.

cleric / mages get the biggest boost from the robe vecna (since most high level cleric spells take very long to cast). aerie tends to get the robe. or if i have more than one mage in the party, i still have only one robe.

she's not a tank (at least we can agree on that)

The point isn't the length of the fights, but the availability of whatever spells you need, in quantity, on the spot, when you need 'em. Nalia can't get the spells Edwin does, and she can't memorize as many copies.

mostly true, imo edwin's incresed spell capacity equates to more spells that he can cast, but i've never needed more spells than the average mage can provide. perhaps this will change in tob if mages can cast more than one spell / round.
but w/ prior planning and good spell selection, you don't need that many spells. i don't have the tables with me right now, but nalia using the zerth blade & ring wizardry will have all the spell slots you need.

-------

a few other random bits

nalia's higher hit points makes her less vulerable to some (all?) of the powerword spells, and symbols.

the amulet of power is almost as good as edwin's necklace (and much better in some situations)

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:40 pm

Xyx writes, first quoting me:
Nalia can't get the spells Edwin does...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the contrary! Nalia can learn and cast any spell Edwin can. Edwin is the one with the "limited" repertoire.

She has an INT of 17, and Edwin has 18. She can't learn the highest level of mage spells in ToB.

gecko · Post by **gecko** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:46 pm

I do agree, Edwin is the best mage. And Nalia, does have some good points as well, but also one achilles hill. If she is supposed to be a mage/thief, she does a real bad job of being a thief. I had her in my group for awhlie and saw her get wiped out trying to disarm a trap. So, I am a strong Jan fan up to now. Theif skills that keep rising. I enjoy playing good (weird that there is more benefits to playing good), so I have take jan and aerie. Sure their stats don't make em the best mage, but at least they can do other stuff as well. So you may not have the higher mage spells, but you at least have alot more spells combined than if you just had one devoted mage. Anyway's when I do play evil, Edwin is a perfect partner.