GameBanshee Forums

[QUOTE=fable]
Lemminkainen. One of the most colorful gods, he's short, dark, powerful, mercurial in temperament (not surprisingly), a great spell speaker, an insufferable boaster, an arrant lecher, a noisy, nosy busybody and sulking, egotistical, overgrown child. In contrast to the tales of kindly old, all-knowing Vainamoinen, the stories involving Lemminkainen are full of enthusiasm, desire, success and failure. No odds were too great for Lemminkainen! Once, though, he took on too many enemies, and ended up chopped into pieces like Horus and sprinked in the river of death, Tuonela, guarded by a black swan. His mother, Ilmatar, procured a kind of superglue from Suonetar to put her darling scamp back together--and he was just as insufferable afterwards, too. [/QUOTE]

Interesting. From what country is that legend? Do you have any links?

Baba Yaga I also love...I read her story as a child with Jan Pienkowski (sp) marbling & sillhouette illustrations. Yes I had nightmares

@MacCool, Irish legends are always less fantastical than other countries...they don't really go in for dragons very much, nor omnipotent Gods or demons...but the humanity of the heroes and villains they do have makes them the more grating and sincere IMO.

And who could say no to a hero who gains his magic knowledge by sucking his thumb that he accidentally burnt trying to cook a fish??

Interesting. From what country is that legend? Do you have any links?

Finland. Several legends involving Lemminkainen are part of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala. There's a free version of it here, but it lacks footnotes and the translation is a little mundane. Still, it's free, and gives a good flavor of the work. Considering the songlike meter and deliberate repetitiveness of the lines, it's probably best taken in small doses with some suitable mood music in the background. I love the stuff.

[QUOTE=frogus23]Baba Yaga I also love...I read her story as a child with Jan Pienkowski (sp) marbling & sillhouette illustrations. Yes I had nightmares
[/QUOTE]

Frogus, see if you can find a decent recording of the orchestral tone poems by Anatol Liadov, a turn-of-the-twentieth century Russian composer. One of his most popular is "Baba Yaga," and in a good rendition, it's pretty haunting. As much can be said of Liadov's other fine tone poems, though he's generally regarded as one of the great slackers of art.

[QUOTE=fable]Interesting. From what country is that legend? Do you have any links?

Finland. Several legends involving Lemminkainen are part of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala. There's a free version of it here, but it lacks footnotes and the translation is a little mundane. Still, it's free, and gives a good flavor of the work. Considering the songlike meter and deliberate repetitiveness of the lines, it's probably best taken in small doses with some suitable mood music in the background. I love the stuff. [/QUOTE]

Thanks. I had a quick look at it. Seems very interesting. I will read it tonight - but as you said, probably best in small doses with mood music and sitting by the fire......
I can see it is translated 1888, but of course the original is older - do you know how old it is?

It was published in 1835 by Elias Lonnrot, whose intention was to prove that a single mind could have funneled a host of various Greek myths into creating the Iliad (rather than being composed by many poets over time). What was intended to be a scholarly exercise became a national hit that surprised Lonnrot, who published a greatly expanded version in 1849.

[QUOTE=Morril]I agree with you.
I allways read the original versions Even if it sometimes can be a little difficult with the language, I find it most more interesting and giving reading the "true" version of the myth.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and I also think it adds to the understanding of the contex of the myth if one can read the original version in original language.

@Fable: I also like Baba Yaga. Another Russian myth I've been fond of since I was a small kid, is the Firebird. (I am less fond of Stravinsky's ballet partiture, though.)

Of the very famous legends, I like Arabian nights. It is funny how the Western image of the Orient is still heavily influenced by this work! I however wonder why so many late depictions of Djinns are blue? I can't remember ever having come into contact with any stories about genies where they are blue. Genies in Arabic mythology are very much like humans, some are ugly and horrid to look at, some are handsome, some are kind and helpful, others are power hungry and dangerous. I've seen older depictions where they may be black, grey, ghost-like and human-like...but not blue.

[QUOTE=C Elegans]@Fable: I also like Baba Yaga. Another Russian myth I've been fond of since I was a small kid, is the Firebird. (I am less fond of Stravinsky's ballet partiture, though.)[/quote]

Agreed on both counts, though I greatly enjoy the music from the final tableau of the ballet. It has a healing quality to it.

Of the very famous legends, I like Arabian nights. It is funny how the Western image of the Orient is still heavily influenced by this work! I however wonder why so many late depictions of Djinns are blue? I can't remember ever having come into contact with any stories about genies where they are blue. Genies in Arabic mythology are very much like humans, some are ugly and horrid to look at, some are handsome, some are kind and helpful, others are power hungry and dangerous. I've seen older depictions where they may be black, grey, ghost-like and human-like...but not blue.

They're blue thanks to illustrations from late 19th century Victorian childrens' books, which were part of the grab bag used by the D&D folks.

But I agree, the Arabian Nights are great fun. The MidEastern cultures can't understand the attraction it holds for the West, but it's a huge repository of oral storytelling. Only a fraction typically is told and retold for our ears: Sinbad, Alladin and his Lamp, the Bronze Horse, Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves, Barber of Baghdad Abu Hassan. Yet the tales range from G-rated to mature, with a fair amount of gleeful bigotry at other cultures and religions, and a lot of rampant cruelty, generosity, great deeds, horrible revenge...in short, much of that which makes humankind so various and interesting. I've been meaning to get out my copy of Burton's full translation for some time--you may have just provided the impetus.

A Forgotten Realms/D&D deity connection?

[QUOTE=fable]Lemminkainen. One of the most colorful gods, he's short, dark, powerful, mercurial in temperament (not surprisingly), a great spell speaker, an insufferable boaster, an arrant lecher, a noisy, nosy busybody and sulking, egotistical, overgrown child. In contrast to the tales of kindly old, all-knowing Vainamoinen, the stories involving Lemminkainen are full of enthusiasm, desire, success and failure. No odds were too great for Lemminkainen! Once, though, he took on too many enemies, and ended up chopped into pieces like Osiris and sprinked in the river of death, Tuonela, guarded by a black swan. His mother, Ilmatar, procured a kind of superglue from Suonetar to put her darling scamp back together--and he was just as insufferable afterwards, too. [/QUOTE]

Hmmm...

Ilmatar?! Could that possibly where the name for the Forgotten Realms deity of martyrdom and mercy (although his is spelled Ilmater) got his name?

Then again, Silvanus & Talos came from Olympian (my term for Greco-Roman or what-not) myths, while Tyr comes from Norse culture, and supposedly Loviatar is from Finnish myth as well, from what I remember. Saint Cuthbert from core D&D was possibly based upon the actual British saint of the same name.

What I'm getting at is that many myths and legends are often the inspiration and basis for many of the deities for these game settings that made Baldur's Gate and similar games possible.

La Befana the christmas witch, an old Italian legend. As the story goes an old woman went looking for the christ child at the time of his birth and never made it, so it's said that every year she visits the rooms of all children and leaves then presents in their shoes.

I'm also really intrigued by the various creation and doomsday myths of various ancient cultures.

[QUOTE=fable]Agreed on both counts, though I greatly enjoy the music from the final tableau of the ballet. It has a healing quality to it.

They're blue thanks to illustrations from late 19th century Victorian childrens' books, which were part of the grab bag used by the D&D folks.

But I agree, the Arabian Nights are great fun. The MidEastern cultures can't understand the attraction it holds for the West, but it's a huge repository of oral storytelling. [/quote]

Stravinsky is a composer I've always felt I should like (due to his musical structure) more than I actually do

I knew you'd know the answer to the mysterious blue colour It also explains why I am not familiar with it, since I never came in contact with the Victorian tradition of retelling Arabian nights, I got it from other sources.

I like Arabian nights much for the same reasons as you, the variety and also the form. It is highly suitable to read a story every now and then, which makes it more similar to reading a work of epic poetry rather than let's say a traditional novel.

I note that many people in this thread enjoy the Old Norse and Greek-Roman mythology. I suppose the reason why I am not so fascinated by them, is that to me, being brought up in Sweden, they are too familiar. I've read them in school as a child and also they contain the same motives as you still see again and again in Western literature. Tales from other cultures are more exciting to me since they hold an element of the less familiar. Mankind is the same, but cultural differences focus on slightly different aspects.

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Stravinsky is a composer I've always felt I should like (due to his musical structure) more than I actually do [/quote]

Yes, Stravinsky is rather like oatmeal in some respects, isn't he?

I knew you'd know the answer to the mysterious blue colour It also explains why I am not familiar with it, since I never came in contact with the Victorian tradition of retelling Arabian nights, I got it from other sources.

There were some magnificent childrens' book illustrators at the time--Dore (I can't put the accent grave over the e), for one, Arthur Rackam, for another; Edmund Dulac was a third. I think Dulac might have been my favorite; you can see a sample of his work here.

I like Arabian nights much for the same reasons as you, the variety and also the form. It is highly suitable to read a story every now and then, which makes it more similar to reading a work of epic poetry rather than let's say a traditional novel.

Very much so, yes. The craft of storytelling is never more visible than in the Arabian Nights, where you can tell the people who developed it enjoyed letting others see how well they could do so. Not to mention the technique of enclosing a story within a story within a story...

I note that many people in this thread enjoy the Old Norse and Greek-Roman mythology. I suppose the reason why I am not so fascinated by them, is that to me, being brought up in Sweden, they are too familiar. I've read them in school as a child and also they contain the same motives as you still see again and again in Western literature. Tales from other cultures are more exciting to me since they hold an element of the less familiar. Mankind is the same, but cultural differences focus on slightly different aspects.

I've tried to go back to the oldest, least urbanized Greek originals, which means essentially that dour old farmer, Hesiod, and the collection of ritual fragments that still exist and understandably withstood the changing cultural times. They show a vividness and strength lacking in the rather indolent, quaint Roman myths (especially those of Ovid, whose purpose was to tittilate, in any case). But I agree: I find the Finnish and older Russo-Ukrainian materials of greater interest, and always look to see how the same concepts are viewed differently by various cultures according to their own life experiences.