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Intergalactic, it doesn't make sense to you that The Sheriff could have fooled the prince into thinking he was a loyal member of the Camarilla? Sure it makes sense! About as much sense as the idea of a giant spotlight incapacitating and blinding a bat...

Jennelle, for me Sheriff will always be a gorilla ... or winged gorilla
I didn't know he gets blinded with the big spotlight, too.
What i did to kill him was ... run. And wait for those policemen to shoot him.Mighty Vampire runs like a chicken screaming "Get down you fat ugly son of a ...! Get down and fight like a man!", while average Joe policemen kill the baddy X-) Never had a more embarrising end fight in any game.

LOL I feel you, Intergalactic. I thought I was going to have to go into God mode to defeat him, and I don't like to cheat!

Running and letting the cops handle him --- I wish that would have worked for me! He tore through those cops in about a minute when I went up against him. He just picked them up and threw them off the building. Then it was just him, me, and all those mini-werewolf-looking Gangrel freaks (at least that's what I think they were) that run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Oh, and they respawn, too! What fun! At least when he came near me the Gangrel ran away screaming, leaving me alone with him.

I can't believe you didn't use the spotlight to kill him! How in the world were you able to defeat him? At first I didn't use the spotlights, either (I didn't know they had another use besides decoration), but I could NEVER get a fix on him with any of my guns. He is one fast little bugger!

I turned on the spotlight and as soon as he flew through it he collapsed onto the roof of the building in a giant heap and starting gyrating around wildly. He was completely incapacitated and I was able to walk right up to him and burn him to a crisp with my flamethrower. He never even tried to get back in the air!

So, if it hadn't been for the spotlight, I doubt I would have ever defeated him. I still think it's pretty weak that a giant bat would be rendered helpless and incapable of movement or flight by a spotlight, though.

Hehe imaging how you fried that annoying freak makes me feel less bad. At least you gave him what he deserves.
As far as the whole bat buisness is concerned, i have to agree. Light shouldn't matter much. If *i* had to fight a giant-vampire-gorilla-bat i would rather have a phat Ghettoblaster and a Beasty Boys Lp than some Spotlight.
Try to navigate, while the beats rock your spine bat!
In case you are interested, here is not very epic tale of my fight:
Entered the Rooftop, spotted Police and Grangell-vamps (or whatever they are supposed to be) a flying gorilla, and a spot light.
First thougth: " Gotta stay outside the light radius and sneak-kill the roof clean". But since i was spotted right away, this didnt quite cut it.
Next thing i noticed, was that the police is shooting at the bat and not me.
So i started to kill the vampires, who chased my new friends.
Every time the gorrilla came flying i intercepted his course and placed myself in front of the targeted policeman. This somehow screwed his plans and he let the cop live. After he was gone i went back to chasing vamps. After a while they stopped respawning and i was alone with two cops and the sheriff.
Well i tried to shoot him too, but since firearm was at 1, my bloodshield made me see unclear and the thing was moving fast, i gave up that plan quick.
Just babysitted the cops until they finished the job

I just shot the bat with the ultra uzi... A lot of clips later, he was dead.

The sherrif doesn't need to be an elder to be able to use a lvl 6 power. He could just have been embraced by a 6th gen elder who tought the fledgling all he needed to know. Hell, he could even be one of those manchurian spies. The disappearing could just some advanced celerity power. The first time you meet the Tzimisce bishop ( or whatever, forgot his name), he also disappears all the time. So this could mean they are of the same clan.

Your characters heritage is not so clear either. During the Lacroix ending he demands the key, like any Ventrue he would naturally be using dominate, yet you can refuse to give it to him. So maybe you have a very low gen that you don't know about. That's why I thought you were the child of an ancient or something and why Jack's surprise was a bummer.

The spotlight thing was indeed lame. At one point I thought the sheriff might be a Setite, but that seems even more unlikely.

I know nothing about the pen and paper game. I figured he was a gargoyle servant you read about.

As far as C4 in the coffin. How the hell did that happen? I had the only key. Did Jack somehow get the key, open it, plant C4, then return the key to the asian woman? That makes no sense and the ending is terrible.

Talking about the endings the cab driver is supposedly Caine, the mythological first vampire. Which I feel is a pretty hard break from the Vampire Mythos. Since the Vampire: The Masquerade books all are very secretive about what's really going on. However, we don't really need to worry about that anymore. Since Gehenna did happen and the world of darkness did end. And the new world of darkness is radically different than the old. I do greatly recommend you to read the new Vampire: The Requiem, if you're interested in Vampires and Vampire RPGs.

Some thoughts-
About the bat-sheriff: I killed him with Blood Boil. The cops just stood there and shot at him, so I would suck them dry whenever I needed more blood. They kept respawning too; not sure if that was a bug or not.

About the characters blood/generation: The Tzimisce seems to strongly suggest when you are fighting him for the second time that there is something unusual or special about your blood. The first thing that popped into my head was that the character must be a lower generation than normal. If I remember the Pen and Paper correctly (only played once), the starting blood pool for a normal generation vampire (can't remember which) is 10. Clearly we have more than 10 blood points to work with, so I think that that points to a lower than normal generation. Couple that with the Tzimsce comments and I think that the character clearly has stronger blood than should be expected for a fledgling, i.e., I think we got embraced by an elder or something.

Can someone find out what blood pools you get from which generation and compare that to what we have in the game? That should give us an idea of what's going on with our generation....

15 blood pool would make you 8th gen, just falling outside the level 6 disciplines so that could work. 13th Gen is a starting vampire who doesn't spend any background points in generation, and have 10 blood pool ala normal human.

[QUOTE=Paseck]The spotlight thing was indeed lame. At one point I thought the sheriff might be a Setite, but that seems even more unlikely.[/QUOTE]

I wish he were a Setite; that would at least help to explain The Sheriff's reaction to the spotlight. Unfortunately, it seems that he was supposed to be a Tzimisce.


[QUOTE=Paseck]The disappearing could just some advanced celerity power. The first time you meet the Tzimisce bishop (or whatever, forgot his name), he also disappears all the time. So this could mean they are of the same clan.[/QUOTE]

Andrei does "disappear" all the time, but I didn't find that out of character for a Tzimisce at all. I just thought he was using a Level 6 Vicissitude power like Plasmic Form; he was transforming his body into a pool of blood, moving, and then reforming somewhere else.

What The Sheriff was doing did seem out of character for a Tzimisce, especially within the confines of the Bloodlines game where it seems that a vampire may only possess his own clan's disciplines and none other. If it were Celerity that he was using, that wouldn't fit very well with their own representation of the different clans; why would a Tzimisce have Celerity?


[QUOTE=Paseck]During the Lacroix ending he demands the key, like any Ventrue he would naturally be using dominate, yet you can refuse to give it to him. So maybe you have a very low gen that you don't know about.[/QUOTE]

Your character would at least have to be his generation or lower. The blood pool would seem to imply that the PC is an 8th generation; if Lacroix were an 8th generation as well you could resist his attempt at domination. I could see him being an 8th gen...


[QUOTE=Qark]Talking about the endings the cab driver is supposedly Caine, the mythological first vampire. Which I feel is a pretty hard break from the Vampire Mythos.[/QUOTE]

Is that cab driver really supposed to be Caine? That is SO lame.

What indicates that the cab driver is Caine? Wouldn't Cain have a better job?
He had millenias to gather qualifikations after all...
Concerning the teleporting subject:
How about the bishop in the plaguebearer quest? And the Kei-juin agents?
Seems more like most of the bosses can teleport. (Don't forget about Bach )
To me it looks like the gamedesigners were strechted a bit thin on how to design boss-fights and didn't bother much with lore.

By the way, does the fact that bishop creates zombies make him a giovanni?

I can guarantee that the cab driver is Caine, try listening to the sound files in the directory : Vampire\sound\character\dlg\main characters\Caine\

You make an convincing argument. But what is the point of including Caine as a cab driver for the last few minutes in the game? Pretty absurd, isn't it? The ending leaves a lot of open questions. Maybe things had to be rushed? (I heard the game was finished some time ago already, but had to wait until Half Life 2 was ready. Considering the bugs that still are in the game this must be a urban legend of sorts.)
Or maybe all this is a cliffhanger for a sequel/expansion?

[QUOTE=OuterParadise]I can guarantee that the cab driver is Caine, try listening to the sound files in the directory : Vampire\sound\character\dlg\main characters\Caine\[/QUOTE]

Pretty perceptive, OuterParadise. Here I was thinking the spotlight sensitive bat was weak, but the cab driver being Caine takes the cake for the lamest thing in the game.


[QUOTE=Intergalactic]How about the bishop in the plaguebearer quest? And the Kei-juin agents? Seems more like most of the bosses can teleport.[/QUOTE]

Intergalactic, the Kuei-Jin I don't know too much about, so I can't speak one way or the other as to their supernatural powers. The bishop in the plaguebearer quest wasn't teleporting per se, he was just using Celerity. The bishop using Celerity and Andrei using Vicissitude to melt into a pool of blood and then reform somewhere else makes perfect sense to me. What doesn't make sense to me is the Sheriff's mysterious disappearing act, especially considering he was apparently supposed to be a Tzimisce.


[QUOTE=Intergalactic]By the way, does the fact that bishop creates zombies make him a giovanni?[/QUOTE]

I can't tell whether that was intended as a joke or an actual question.
Assuming it was a question, though, the answer is no. Tzimisce love to perform hideous experiments; they pride themselves on embracing their vampirism and eschewing their human nature. Andrei wasn't raising the dead using Necromancy like the Giovanni do, he was creating hideous flesh monsters from various parts of human bodies using Vicissitude. Typical Tzimisce behavior; I'm sure he was very proud of his creations.

Maybe Caine is the one, who send you those useless "email from a friend", too.
Still can't believe he was inserted as a cab driver, of all things...way to go on creativity!

Sheriff's dissappearance is not so mysterious if he can Vicissitude . He could
simply vicissitude himself into a small animal, say a fly, move, and then vicissitude again....

Jennelle, for me hideous monsters crafted out of bodies and hideous
monsters crafted out of dead bodies look pretty much alike:
hideous. Hence my stupid question.

So basically, if you fight Sabbath in this game, you fight Tzimisce. Are the other sabbath clans no match for the camarilla ones?

Oh and some more questions about Tremere, if you don't mind answering.
The description says they wrestled the secrets of immortality from unwilling
vampires. Does that mean, they figured out how to turn themselves into vampires without getting bitten? Or did they forced captured vampires to turn them. In both cases i would assume the usual generation levels do not apply to them. Either they have a lower generation ,because their leader is actually first gen, or a lower level since they weren't bitten by one of the original vamps but sneaked their way in so to speak.

And something more game related: What level would i need in Thaumaturgy to create a golem?

Actually just a thought but the sherrif could be a gangrel....mist form would allow him to 'disappear' and reappear....and I'm pretty sure there is a master protean power that turns you into other kinds of creatures, although not bats specifically it could well be interpreted to allow that, although it seems unlikely a gangrel elder would die to bullets..with master level fortitude and protean....although that is in MET...might not be in tabletop
Most of the sabbat clans are just the camarilla clans but refered to as anti-tribu.
The other main clan in the sabbat is the Lasombra who I would argue are FAR harder in a fight that Tzimisce, their discipline of Obtenebration allows them to create an area of pure darkness at level 2, summon shadow tenticles at level 3 and turn themselves into a shadow monster at level 4, which from my experience from MET is FAR superiour to the Tzimisce version....As well as all that they have Potence but basically the obtenebration is grossly overpowered making them stronger than the Tzimisce. Possibly why they didn't include them.
But I digress, I suspect they decided to pick one 'sabbat' clan and program that in rather than try and do both, and obviously with the others being sabbat clans just 'combated' up they would be simple to do.
On a side note the sabbat are much more free with sharing their disciplines so it isn't at all unlikely that any of the sabbat vampires could obtain any disciplines that are in their pack, whereas the camarilla tend to be more reluctant to share them.
With the Tremere I think Tremere was able to magic himself into a 4th generation vampire if I recall correctly (which I probably don't) and then he diablorised Saulot, the Salubri antideluvian and there was this whole thing with another vampire and a mirror and I honestly can't recall it all, never did like Tremere.
As far as I know they obey the same generational system as ordinary vampires obviously having an antideluvian level progenator even if he wasen't around before the floods. There is a thuamaturgy power on the path of blood I believe that allows them to lower their generation temporarily though.

Yeah, I wonder who was sending all those useless "from a friend" e-mails.


[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Sheriff's dissappearance is not so mysterious if he can Vicissitude . He could simply vicissitude himself into a small animal, say a fly, move, and then vicissitude again....[/QUOTE]

If Vicissitude worked that way then it wouldn't be so mysterious. Vicissitude doesn't quite work like that, though. In order to change the appearance of an individual (either the Tzimisce himself or someone else) the Tzimisce has to use his hands to sculpt and reform the flesh and bones of the target. Crafting yourself into the form of a animal using Vicissitude would take time; much like a sculptor working with clay, it's not something that's instantaneous.


[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Jennelle, for me hideous monsters crafted out of bodies and hideous monsters crafted out of dead bodies look pretty much alike:hideous. Hence my stupid question.[/QUOTE]

I didn't think your question was stupid, I just wasn't sure if it was a question. I agree, the effect is more or less the same: hideous creatures. Their method of creation is a bit different, though. The Giovanni actually can raise dead bodies and bring them to "life" again, i.e. create zombies. The Tzimisce don't raise the dead, but they can craft monstrous creations out of living beings by rending their flesh into whatever their twisted hearts desire.


[QUOTE=Intergalactic]So basically, if you fight Sabbath in this game, you fight Tzimisce. Are the other sabbath clans no match for the camarilla ones?[/QUOTE]

Most established Sabbat vampires would make a good match for any Camarilla vampire. Most of the Sabbat that you fight in the game, though, are "shovelheads," or vampires that were embraced solely for the purpose of being cannon fodder. "Shovelheads" are not too formidable.
The vampires that populate the Sabbat are of the same clans as the ones that populate the Camarilla, but they're called Antitribu. A Brujah belonging to the Camarilla is just a Brujah, but one belonging to the Sabbat is a Brujah Antitribu. The two exceptions are the Tzimisce and the Lasombra, who, by and large, belong exclusively to the Sabbat. (There's a few other clans that are Sabbat-only, but they're rather obscure.) A Lasombra Antitrubu or Tzimisce Antitrubu (there are hardly any of either clan) would belong not to the Sabbat, but to the Camarilla.

About the Tremere: their history is rather complicated. In short, in the Dark Ages there was a powerful group of mages called House Tremere. They wanted to be immortal, so they searched for a means to transcend mortality. In looking for a solution, they discovered vampires and experimented on them. Tremere himself saw how powerful these ancient vampires were and wanted his group of mages to become a powerful clan of vampires. He decided that the way to accomplish that would be to devour an antediluvian, or 3rd generation vampire. (Each clan is descended from a different antediluvian; i.e. Ventrue gave rise to Clan Ventrue, Brujah to Clan Brujah, and so on.) Tremere discovered a slumbering antediluvian named Saulot (founder of Clan Salubri) and diablerized him, thus becoming a 3rd generation vampire in the process. Clan Tremere is descended from Tremere himself, and since Tremere is 3rd generation, his children were 4th, theirs 5th, and so on. Thus Tremere do have a generation.


[QUOTE=Intergalactic]And something more game related: What level would i need in Thaumaturgy to create a golem?[/QUOTE]

A golem cannot be created using Thaumaturgy. I'm not exactly sure to what you are referring, but perhaps you are referring to a Vozhd, which can only be created by Tzimisce using Vicissitude. Their creation does involve Thaumaturgic rituals, but this is not the same Thaumaturgy that the Tremere possess as a discipline.

Or perhaps you are referring to Gargoyles? They can only be created by extremely powerful elders in Clan Tremere. The means to create a Gargoyle is a guarded secret, and apparently a vampire of 8th generation or higher is unable to create one. It would seem from the PC's blood pool that the PC is an 8th generation, so it would not be possible.

Thanks a lot for the info! Having a bit of background knowledge makes the game much more interesting for me

Would the Giovanni be among the more obscure Sabbath clans? Or are they Camarilla? Pictured them as evil vampires, since what they do with corpses
(There is a reason why dead people get burried. It is because they do not look very fit after a while dead!) and since noone was mad at me for raiding their mansion.

At first i thought Jack might be the "friend". But he makes a pretty straightforward impression, so i ruled him out.
Next suspect was Beckett. He seems to be the type, who is all mysterious.
But as the late game shows, he lacked the knowledge of what is going on.
Only one left i could find, was the cab driver. He was mysterious, seemed to know a bit about you and seemed to have the overview on what was going on.

The Stupid Gorilla Man

you guys the gorilla guy is a Gargoyal (Behemoth) that can sapeshift into a human form..