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Hahahahaha!!!!!

That's really evil and really funny and really good. But it makes me wonder, do you think that means that Tremere (while he was still kicking, which makes no sense to me because archmages have the ultimately willpower) could have (using his knowledge of potential limitless sphere magic now removed) have created the Path of Omnipotence and Omniscience or something like that with enough research and experience points or a bunch of rituals that would have a similar effect? Or did he just spend the last 1000 years reaching 5 on the other "14 billion kinds of Thurmaturgy up to level 5 as well! And don't forget the 1,459,274,391 (was that just a random number you picked?) rituals you can also learn that let you do anything from pee without getting any on the toliet seat, to erradicating all life in Persia by pressing a button on your watch.

Hey whatever happened to the Samedi or the Daughters of Cacophony or were they lesser clans like the Lamias, Lhiannan, Gargoyles and Baali etc. Branch-offs from main clans some where along the lines thanks to some kind of manipulation. And are basically still around in small coteries here and there.

Well thanks for the info Pennypincher, but wouldn't that make Ravnos the most powerful antediluvian? I mean he pretty much has the power of "all-power". If he can warp reality like that that means there's nothing he can't do. BTW was he name originally Dannae, I found this bunch of antediluvian cards that has him listed as Dannae the Wanderer.

And still I don't like how Thaumurturgy works. Even if want you said was actually very cool. Still I like Tremere, he looks like a cooler version of Dr. Strange.

Was the Saulot taking over Tremere a fact in the story or just a storyline possibility for storytellers. Sorry I ask so much I'm not able to grasp the awesome entirety that is the World of Neverending Darkness.

I think Tremere didn't do that much after he diablerized Saulot. The willpower and the blood of that millenia old anteliduvian was probably to much for him so he felt in torpor for lenghty periods of time. Most of the paths were created by the Tremere Inner Circle.

About Dracian the Ravnos Anteliduvian....there might be several names for him...one for every culture who came into contact with him. But remember, every Anteliduvian has such powers. Malkav with Dementation 10 wouldn't be a nice enemy to have. Ventrue or Lasombra with Domination 10 could try to dominate whole continents or countries.

A bit more info about Anteliduvians, Clans and Bloodlines:

http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Genealogy/

Lucita has hit the nail right on the head. The reason the Antedeluvians didn't just biff it out in the first place, face to face, one against the other was mostly likley BECAUSE each of them had such powers. Sure, Ravnos might be able to turn the earth to cheese, but theres only so many times he can spend Willpower before he runs out. And what about Ventrue, Lasombra, Tremere or Giovanni in the mean time? What if one of them Dominates all humans to attack Ravnos? Sure, he could turn them all into fashionable handbags.. But then what does he drink?? And if Ravnos is up the front waving Chimestry 10 around and trying to destory everyone, chances are he'll become the center of attention.. And theres NOTHING wores then being the center of attention from a punch of people with Strength 10, Dexterity 10, Stanima 10, Potence 10, Celerity 10...
Anyway, they are all to busy being in love with Ventrue, Torreador and Brujah to worry about killing each other. *drools* Presence 10... Mmmmm...

As for Tremere. I belive much of his time was spent creating a very speical ritual indeed. After he first lost his body and was forced to take another, his Generation was decressed by the new body as well.. Instead of 3rd, he was now 4th. Gee, big deal right? Well for him it was, because the portents of Gehenna had said, there would always be 13 member of the 3rd generation, and when at last there wasnt, Gehenna had begun.
Now, the idea of creating a ritual to just.. MAKE you 3rd generation is something every player has wet dreams about and every Story Teller, horrid nightmares... So of course it was up to Tremere to make all these dreams come true, and when at last Ravnos was killed, Tremere stepped up to the plate and used his hard earned ritual to make himself 3rd Generation again! What a hero!!

... Then Tzimisce turned him inside out and everyone laughed. Ha ha ha!

... Ahem...

Oh well!

**** happens, at least Gehenna meant they all died. Or most of them. That's the beauty of vampire, so like the real world. With the Cold War effect.

What became of Tzimisce finally anyway and all the other antes. Gehenna was supposed to be the end of Jyhad where only one ante was left. Who won or was it all sham like the Anarchs say about he Cammies.

I belive, and don't quote me, as per the Rednecks wishes, they killed them all and let God sort them out. One thing I am 90% sure of thou, is that in all of the different endings.. Caine survived, much to his dismay.

Um, meanwhile you asked about the Bloodlines, like Samide and such. The answer is, White Wolf obviously cared about those guys just as much as I do (waste of paper, stupidest idea ever adding MORE clans) because in the end they got basicly little to no mention at all.. It's assumed they too are dead. Good riddance! None of them had Antedeluvians, so none of them really got much of a say in the final battle bewteen the antes, as you can imagine.

Funny thing about all this is..

Its all the Baali's fault.

Baali got the House of Tremere onto Saulot, because the Salubri were killing them with the Assamite's help during the early dark ages, almost wiping the entire bloodline of the Baali out, with the Salubri eliminated, it was the -Baali- that cast the blood curse upon the Assamites, not the Tremere, although it was led to believe that the Tremere had casted the curse, as the Baali had planned.. Also.. Carthage? Baali. Basically almost every huge event within Cainite history that has damaged or killed Cainites in large numbers has been the Baali's either direct, or indirect fault. Don't believe me? Check the Dark Ages series of books, as well as Clanbook Baali.

(Note: Dark Ages Vampire comes way before the Camarilla and the Sabbat, so anything you generally read in the Dark Ages you can take as face value, since it's actually meant to be more 'correct' towards what they really meant. (But as we all know, White Wolf is a bunch of moronic fools who can't properly keep a story going ((Jk)))

As for the Antediluvians and Methuselah's.. Basically, yes, what they want to do, they do. Nothing on this planet is strong enough to stop an Antediluvian, except from a Modern Day Mage that WANTS to cease to exist by racking up that much paradox to make them simply exist no longer.. And thats if the Antediluvian doesn't kill the Mage first by blinking.

And the most powerful Antediluvian is Absimilliard, of the Nickutu (Not Nosferatu, Nosferatu being of Baba Yaga, a 4th generation Vampire, so that they do not have the same 'curse' as the Nickutu, who have Garou Rage as well as horrific appearance, meaning that instead of being horrified, they actually are affected by delerium as per Garou rules.) Whyso? Because Absimilliard has a level 10 Discipline that kills one opponent ouright. Yes, that's right, no saves, no rolls, no willpower, no nothing. He simply spends 5 Rage, 5 WP and 5 Blood, and the thing just drops dead, he can also go Crinos. Imagine a 3rd generation Vampire that has Potence at probably level 10, resulting in him having.. Wha? 20 Strength? Then add on Garou stats, and being able to use rage for extra actions and aggy claws... Nasty.

Second..? I'd have to probably give that to Malkav, because.. Malkav still exists, in a sense. Every Malkavian has a piece of Malkav inside of him, and it is theorised that he was in the Umbra (I never bothered to read ToJ, biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard of and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot barge pole) along with his Sister, Arikel (Funnily enough, Toreador Antediluvian and Absimilliard were deeply in love with eachother.. And I think that lasted even after Absimilliard was horribly horribly mutilated, which results in another theory.. He was never mutilated, Caine simply hit him and left him with a single little scar across his cheek.. But consider this. Absimilliard was -the perfect hunter-, he looked amazing, was strong, fast, tough, and then Caine cursed him with this single little scar, which, in Absimilliard's mind, makes everyone STARE straight at it, which has made him use the power of Obfuscate to make himself look so disguisting..)

Okie.. Enough theories and rants.. But there, my two cents.

~ Morvior.

Only problem with blaming it all on the Baali is that if you read some of the books Saulot creates the Baali in a depression over his perception of the failure of the Salubri. Later he deliberately sets out to create another clan, called the Tremere as it happens, as an attempt at a better clan. Problem is that after he is diablerised and occupies Tremere himself he finds himself engaged in a battle for control that is only resolved right before Gehenna and is indeed one of the signs. :speech:

Then you get to Caine - where would it all be without him!

Lets also be honest books near the end actually state the existence of 2nd generation vampires that were never destroyed plus we have no idea what happened to most of the antedeluvians as the novels and gamebooks differed significantly as GM's could pick from 4 different storylines behind Gehenna.

This thread began as a discussion on game mechanics, and then veered off into one about the books and their world. Since our Bloodlines forum is only about the game, this thread is closed. Feel free to discuss the books in our Speak Your Mind forum, or the game campaigns over in our PvP forum.