Heritage and Ancestry.

[giles337]

Ok, I can see what you are saying. Basically we should be prous of what we've done not whats been done to us? Then is it right to be proud of, or for our ancestors achievements, or background?

[C Elegans]

@Giles: Of course people may be proud of whatever they like, it is not my right to forbid people to feel pride over themselves. I may however have an opinion on whether the pride is justified or not. My opinion is that since the word "proud" is connected to feelings of self-esteem, value and worth, it is unjustified to be proud of anything (ie feel self-esteem and think you are worth something) because of things you have not done yourself. Thus, my opinion is that if your ancestors did great deeds, fine, be happy for them and for you own luck that they were your ancestors; but not proud, since you did not do it yourself. Likewise, if Dr Mengele was your grandfather, don't be ashamed, it is not your fault. You have no part is his acts since your action don't reach back in time, only forward.

[giles337]

Likewise, if Dr Mengele was your grandfather, don't be ashamed, it is not your fault. You have no part is his acts since your action don't reach back in time, only forward.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but up until his death, didn't Megele tour europe with a group of ex POWs? Not saying this makes up in anyway for the attrocities he commited, but it seemed an interesting tidbit, if correct.

@CE:
I think our major diagreement here is the use, and definition of the word, proud.

Dictionary.com defines prous as:

proud (proud)
adj. proud·er, proud·est

1. Feeling pleasurable satisfaction over an act, possession, quality, or relationship by which one measures one's stature or self-worth: proud of one's child; proud to serve one's country.
2. Occasioning or being a reason for pride: “On January 1, 1900, Americans and Europeans greeted the twentieth century in the proud and certain belief that the next hundred years would make all things possible” (W. Bruce Lincoln).
3. Feeling or showing justifiable self-respect.
4. Filled with or showing excessive self-esteem.
5. Of great dignity; honored: a proud name.
6. Majestic; magnificent: proud alpine peaks.
7. Spirited. Used of an animal: proud steeds.


[Middle English, from Old English prd, from Old French prou, prud, brave, virtuous, oblique case of prouz, from Vulgar Latin *prdis, from Late Latin prde, advantageous, from Latin prdesse, to be good : prd-, for

So yes. I belive we were both right You on defenition one, me on a combination of 3 and 5. Probably more so you than me, but let that be a lesson, and let us continue. On Topic (guess it serves me right for trying to argue with CE )

[frogus23]

I completely agree with CE over pride-by-proxy.

@Giles, it certainly is possible to take pride in one's country for example, but it is meaningless pride.

I can reasonable proud of myself if I demonstrate a quality in myself.
If I win a race this demonstrates my fitness, I can be proud of it. If I save a kitten, this demonstrates my bravery and I can be proud of it.

The performances of any other people show nothing about your own prowess in any field, unless their performance was specifically facilitated by some act of your own which deomonstrated skill e.g a figure skating trainer has right to be proud of his pupils performance as it was spefically facilitated by his training skill.

[Yeltsu]

Well, as I stated above, I am a serious patriot when it comes to living in Bergen, It is not that I am particulary proud of things that has happened here. But to me Bergen is the best place to live on earth. (of course, if I had been born anywhere else, then that would probably have been the best place on earth) Bergen is "home", it is the place where I have lived all my life, and I'll probably never settle anywhere else for long.

@CE: I don't understand why you can't accept that people might be proud of their ancestry, or have patiotic feelings about a place. To me these feeling are a big part of me, I don't know of anything particular that my ancestors have done, but yet I am proud to bear my family name, maybe it is out of a strong feeling of loyalty or something like that, I don't know.

Patriotism is probably some of the same, I think Bergen is the most beutiful city that I have ever seen. Other cities might have pretty architecture(sp?) or amazing landscape, but nothing compares to Bergen in my heart. I am sure that someone else feel that way about their home town, or country for that matter. That would probably have been different if I had been born somewhere else mind you.

[fable]

Although Giles only used a word with a near-meaning, he still caused an interesting subject to appear, here, and for that he deserves praise. Too many people in this old, sad, bad world take a strange sort of secondhand pride in a range of things to make up for the universe's lack of specific attention. Look at me, my family is ancient. Watch closely, my house is an architect's delight, or even older than my family. Hey, I own the latest sports car! My brother knows The Right Kind of People. I believe in the best religion, and attend the finest church/synagogue/whatever! Or my favorite: I rule in the latest, best computer game!

Where ancestry serves a purpose is where one's immediate ancestors provide meaning to the world around us, investing objects with a sense of experience we normally must develop ourselves over our own lifetimes. Failing that, ancestry is nothing to brag about. It is a last name, a mole on the butt, a curiosity for those who are curious about such things.

[giles337]

ancestry is nothing to brag about. It is a last name, a mole on the butt, a curiosity for those who are curious

Nice . Can I use it as a siggy? *hugs*


Maybe the whole "pride" thing, would be an interesting new topic?

[fable]

[QUOTE=giles337]Nice . Can I use it as a siggy? *hugs*
[/QUOTE]

If you add my name to it, you can.

[giles337]

Would I ever dream of not

[C Elegans]

@Giles: it seems like the pride thing goes on...

Correct me if i'm wrong, but up until his death, didn't Megele tour europe with a group of ex POWs? Not saying this makes up in anyway for the attrocities he commited, but it seemed an interesting tidbit, if correct.

ROFL, sorry for laughing at such a terrible subject, it's just how far this thread has wandered off topic

As far as I know, Mengele fled to Argentina and was never found until he was death, but history has always been my worst subject, so I might well be wrong here.

I think our major diagreement here is the use, and definition of the word, proud.
<snip>
1. Feeling pleasurable satisfaction over an act, possession, quality, or relationship by which one measures one's stature or self-worth: proud of one's child; proud to serve one's country.
2. Occasioning or being a reason for pride: ?On January 1, 1900, Americans and Europeans greeted the twentieth century in the proud and certain belief that the next hundred years would make all things possible? (W. Bruce Lincoln).
3. Feeling or showing justifiable self-respect.
4. Filled with or showing excessive self-esteem.
5. Of great dignity; honored: a proud name.
6. Majestic; magnificent: proud alpine peaks.
7. Spirited. Used of an animal: proud steeds.

Maybe it's a question of semantics, but to me it appears as if all these definitions except 7, are related to worth, value and self-esteem. Thus, I maintain my opinion that pride over something you have not achived yourself, is absurd.

Oh, I accept it, I just don't like it and I certainly don't understand it. But as I have said previously, everybody is entitled to their feelings of pride, as long as it does not include discrimination of others.

Patriotism is probably some of the same, I think Bergen is the most beutiful city that I have ever seen. Other cities might have pretty architecture(sp?) or amazing landscape, but nothing compares to Bergen in my heart. I am sure that someone else feel that way about their home town, or country for that matter. That would probably have been different if I had been born somewhere else mind you.

Love and pride is not the same. What you describe here sounds like love to me: you feel a deep, personal attachment to Bergen although you seem to realise that Bergen is not objectively better than all other places.

That kind of love is IMO the same as the love people feel for their family and close ones: we love them not because we really think they are better people than everybody else, but because we know them and are familiar with them.

If your patriotism means love and nothing else, it's fine by me, I will probably never understand it, but I don't find it morally unacceptable.

[fable]

[QUOTE=giles337]Would I ever dream of not [/QUOTE]

You'd be surprised. Just a few weeks back I found an old game review of mine being offered as somebody else's work on a professional website that publishes new reviews of any game. I reported this to the site admins, along with the magazine name and issue number. The review was yanked, and so was the quasi-reviewer, but it leaves you a bit over-reactive.

[giles337]

You'd be surprised. Just a few weeks back I found an old game review of mine being offered as somebody else's work on a professional website that publishes new reviews of any game. I reported this to the site admins, along with the magazine name and issue number. The review was yanked, and so was the quasi-reviewer, but it leaves you a bit over-reactive.

Would I ever? I trust it is to your approval. (it's just a good job this is my thread, or i'd be shouted at for spamming it )

[Stoned_Golem]

Well, I my Grandfather has taken an interest in our family's history, and he found out that we are related to Daniel Boone. DOn't ask me what he has done but I recognized that name. Im also part Irish and German. I agree that heritage is not logically something you should be proud of, but that doesn't stop people from making fun of you for it, someone once found out that I was german (distantly) and thye said thye hate germans and muttered something about Hitler and walked away.. Ouch

FYI I live in Boston, and do not seem German at all... it's strange that they found base for hate against a country I felt I had nothing to do with.

Sorry for a bit off topic

[jopperm2]

I am of mixed stock as well. I know that I am 25% Danish, that is probably the largest percentage.. I'm 1/16 Native American, split between half Apache and half Cherokee. The other numbers I do not know. I do know that my name is German. We have a book tracing that line back to the 1300s where my family were shepheards in the country outside of Hamburg. These are the people I most relate to as I look like and have similar personality traits to the family members that that line contributed to.

I think the attraction to genealogiocal pursuits and pride for Americans is in part because there are so many groups here. In other countries, the majority of the population is usually of one ethnic group. We have no national background. We are in essence a made up country. I think a lot of Americans want to identify with something with a little more history.

The other attraction for such pride is a little more nationalist. If one feels the aforementioned love for their nation they may also feel pride for the group they belong to. Here's an example, I think that Denmark is the best country in the world, with the best people in the world. I'm 25% Danish so I am proud that I come from the best stock around. That sort of thing. Somewhat rascist if you ask me, but not really to a harmful extent.

[fable]

[QUOTE=jopperm2]The other attraction for such pride is a little more nationalist. If one feels the aforementioned love for their nation they may also feel pride for the group they belong to. Here's an example, I think that Denmark is the best country in the world, with the best people in the world. I'm 25% Danish so I am proud that I come from the best stock around. That sort of thing. Somewhat rascist if you ask me, but not really to a harmful extent.[/QUOTE]

Oh, you'll hear from CE on that last "not really to a harmful extent," I suspect. Personally, I think patriotic pride is right up there with religious pride for being among the worst sins of humankind. That pair have started more wars in the name of self-righteousness and caused more misery than any number of natural disasters combined. Looked at in microcosm, as some old coot ranting about the glories of his nation or his religion, many of us are inclined to smile; but when the politicians and preachers in charge whip that up to a fever pitch it can and is used to justify anything. I don't believe in hell, save that we create; and this is the way most humans do it.

[jopperm2]

I'll agree with you there that it has caused problems, but what I meant by not a harmful extent is that the small amount of nationalism that causes pride for one's heritage isn't explicitly harmful. The types that cause those problems have more than this dosage of such prides. Anywho, that's what causes such things IMO.

[CM]

According to my dads older brother we are directly related to a bunch of saints or what we call pirs ie holy men from my fathers side. My great great grandfather is Shah Abdul Haji. He is supposed to have of the largest burial grounds in Pakistan. People from all over Pakistan come to offer prayers and stuff.

I am also supposedly originally arab, and are off-springs of the Holy Prophets best friend and the first male to accept Islam.

It doesn't affect me at all, but its a bit odd how serious the rest of the family is. My dads older brother the one who did the whole family tree, was a revered holy man. Heck people we know from the Foriegn Service used to go to him for stuff.

[Chanak]

Let's see...my father's side is Scottish and Welsh, with some Native American thrown in somewhere a while back. My mother's side is English and French Canadian (from Quebec of course), with some Native American thrown in a while back (Iroqois great-great-great grandfather).

I agree with CE overall. However, my father's side has passed along to me the classic artistic temperment shaped by bipolar disorder (probably go hand in hand in many cases). In just about every generation of his side I have researched, there have been artists, musicians, and even an inventor who were either recluses, alcoholics, just plain "odd" (such as my father's tatooed great-aunt (paternal) who was an amazing painter) or all three combined. Most drank themselves into an early grave - probably a form of "self-medicating".

So, mainly my interest in my ancestry has been a genetic one, and serves as a warning. It's one of the reasons why I stay away from alcohol. That's the only value I see in learning about your ancestors.

[C Elegans]

@Chanak: As you know, bipolar has a stong genetic linkage, and for people who have special conditions with high genetic penetrance, it could be very good to do some family research, of course. I recently had a 40 year old research patient who understood only some years ago that he has autism (which has about 80% genetic penetrance), and when he started doing some family research he discovered uncles, cousins, grand-aunts etc, etc who were all affected by autism-Asperger-ADHD syndromes. This guy said to me that he really wished he had known more about his relatives earlier, because that would have helped him to understand his own problems and constant struggle.

You'd be surprised if you knew how many scientists I know with more or less severe bipolar disorder...

[fable]

CE, is science at the point yet where any genes that might contribute to the formation of a bipolar condition have been recognized?