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I think the only weapons that will hurt the garg are blunt weapons. It may be even more limited than that - it might be fists and sledgehammer only.

I think the intention with the goyle is that he's MADE of stone and has Fortitude as a clan power (Thou I don't like thinking of them as a clan ANYTHING).. So trying to stab it with your knife, shoot it with a 9m or slice it with a Katana is a bit of an engery waster, while crushing stone with a stone crushing mallet always proves effective.

... Of course, if you like XP and money, you COULD just talk him into... Well.. Never mind...

The gargoyle can be hurt with other weapons, but the damage is minimal. Several disciplines are effective against him as well. But, yes, fists and sledgehammer are the only way to do the trick efficiently.

A Gargoyle's resistance is an extention of both the Fortitude and Visceratika discipline lines. So, the developers were simply trying to reflect the armor of stone the creature has. I suppose it makes sense for stone to need to be smashed, being rather impervious to more precise forms of damage.

Anyway, with the werewolf, the developers were trying to instill fear into the player. They were trying to make the player understand that there are limits to the players skills, and there are creatures out in the WoD that can devour even the mightiest young vampire. I actually thought that being so clearly outclassed by the werewolf was a fairly interesting move at that point. It certainly made that entire encounter quite original in its feel.

You can keep running around the entire observatory building and use the time he takes to enter a new room. When he comes to your room be ready at another exit. I did this with celerity but it should be OK without it.

I tried to the move to kill him with the observatory thing but I couldn't manage to turn the power on without celerity. Then to crush him in the walls, first I had to go outside to lure him, than try and get back in, but the space was to narrow and he kept bashing me away from the inside. Was there supposed to be a way to close the doors on him from the outside?

I agree that this was a great level. I've never had that rushed panic in a game before combined with a bit of amazement.

For some reason mister friendly never followed me up the stairs to the level where you can throw switches and stuff. I got up there after turning the power on and just stood around till the timer went out lol, this time I'll try and kill him... TRY and kill him heh...

Can't let Nines have all the glory.

[QUOTE=Faust]Bottom line, the werewolf is, for all practical purposes, invincible. You can't kill it. I have not tried the thaumaturgy line on it, but my inclination is that none of them would do much good against it. Blood Shield will deflect some of the damage it inflicts, but nowhere near as much as Fortitude would. Regardless, if you let him get too many hits, he will kill you. The only way to take down the werewolf was mentioned earlier in the thread. The werewolf was implemented like this to inspire a sense of terror in the players, I think.[/QUOTE]

I've tried magic. It's invincible to all forms of offensive force, be they fists, weapons, flamethrowers, offensive magic. Since bloodshield works, then perhaps defensive abilities and magics will work on it, so I can't tell about the obfuscate asked about earlier. However, high stealth is nearly as good as level 5 obfuscate and he still spots you.

He still sees you if you use the notarget code.

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]I've tried magic. It's invincible to all forms of offensive force, be they fists, weapons, flamethrowers, offensive magic. Since bloodshield works, then perhaps defensive abilities and magics will work on it, so I can't tell about the obfuscate asked about earlier. However, high stealth is nearly as good as level 5 obfuscate and he still spots you.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, you can try to kill it six ways to Sunday, if its something you enjoy doing. Still, ultimately, you won't succeed. Being able to kill the werewolf undermines the developer's intentions with the encounter. So they made it impossible. I have to respect that, personally. Though I'm sure it annoys others to no end.

Most People Should Understand The Fact That Werewolves Are The Extreme Opposite Of Vampires. Vampires Are More Political In The Sense That Most Don't Have Physical But Mental Abilities.
The Werewolf Was Meant To Be The Mindless Killing Machine Of Legend. After All, Would You Tackle 500-600 Pounds (About 240-300 KG) Of Pure Muscle And Instinct? Put In The Fact That He's Rather P'eed-Off Due To The Fact That Someone Is Burning Down His Living Area And You So Happen To Be The First One He Notices? On Top Of That You Are A Vampire, The Thing He Hates Most. Anyone Brave Enough?

Spoiler

[QUOTE=Ultimus]The Werewolf Was Meant To Be The Mindless Killing Machine Of Legend. After All, Would You Tackle 500-600 Pounds (About 240-300 KG) Of Pure Muscle And Instinct?[/QUOTE]

I get that. I really do. I'm just getting insufferably bored with the senseless desire to put in invincible God-Monsters. I'd be OK even if the Werewolf couldn't be killed any way but the door, but you could at least fight it off. In Jedi Outcast, everybody said you couldn't take down an ATAD with a light-sabre, but I proved otherwise. They're *really* tough, but by virtue of being HARD TO DAMAGE, not simply invulnerable. Personally, I think it reflects either laziness or defective thinking to have to put such a thing in the game, and the instant I find such a God-Monster in a game, I have absolutely no problem with switching on God-Mode myself. In my humble opinion, the designers cheated by putting it there, so I'm perfectly justified to cheat past it. Same goes for infinitely respawning NPCs. They were a necessary evil back in the days when resources were scarce and there was no other way, but nowadays it's sheer laziness to use such things.

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]I get that. I really do. I'm just getting insufferably bored with the senseless desire to put in invincible God-Monsters. I'd be OK even if the Werewolf couldn't be killed any way but the door, but you could at least fight it off. In Jedi Outcast, everybody said you couldn't take down an ATAD with a light-sabre, but I proved otherwise. They're *really* tough, but by virtue of being HARD TO DAMAGE, not simply invulnerable. Personally, I think it reflects either laziness or defective thinking to have to put such a thing in the game, and the instant I find such a God-Monster in a game, I have absolutely no problem with switching on God-Mode myself. In my humble opinion, the designers cheated by putting it there, so I'm perfectly justified to cheat past it. Same goes for infinitely respawning NPCs. They were a necessary evil back in the days when resources were scarce and there was no other way, but nowadays it's sheer laziness to use such things.[/QUOTE]

Bloodlines isn't suppose to be a mindless hack and slash game, though. The game mingles in horror moments (like the Ocean House), stealth moments (Elizabeth Dane, Museum, etc.), and social moments into the rich tapestry of action allowed. This particular event, like things such as the Ocean House before it, is suppose to be unique in the game - something out of the ordinary. It is one where you feel a sense of terror and have to use your imagination and guile to deal with - not simply your very potent powers or skill sets. Personally, I thought the werewolf was a brilliant encounter. It was an interesting and stimulating twist at that point in the game.

I get the purpose of the encounter, but again, you have two ways to win it. Either you get extremely lucky, or you get killed often enough that you manage to map out an useful escape route piece-by-piece. Neither of these things involves any skill. One is sheer luck, the other is using knowledge gleaned by virtue of being able to respawn as often as you wish. I simply would like to be able to defeat the werewolf or escape from the encounter without having to rely on the fact that *I* can respawn indefinitely, and thus map out an escape regardless of how powerful the werewolf is. It should be at least *theoretically* possible for me to win the game in a single pass, if I'm *skilled enough*. If that isn't true, then skill is not a factor in the game, and it is just a hack and slash.

I would have to agree, here, that strategy is far less important than simply rote trial. It's not a quest I can like, because of that.

[QUOTE=fable]I would have to agree, here, that strategy is far less important than simply rote trial. It's not a quest I can like, because of that.[/QUOTE]


I do think that killing the beast requires a bit of cleverness. Moreover, just escaping from the beasts claws requires a bit of strategy. It took me a couple times before I mastered it.

Regardless, ultimately no real part of Bloodlines is chiefly about strategy. It's simply not that kind of game. More aptly, one of the chief aims of the game's many encounters is to inspire visceral feelings from its players. In this case, the werewolf encounter imbues its players with panic, fear, and the rush of being the mouse. To me, it does this extremely well. I'm not sure how a player could loathe this encounter but enjoy something like the Ocean House, or King's Way. And, if you dont' care for any of that, then the game probably isn't a good fit for your play style. In the case of this, the developers did a good job of representing the WoD. No matter how big and bad you are, there is always something scarrier than you waiting in the shadows.

Still, to each their own.

Hack 'n slash

Pers'naly, one of the things I enjoy about this game is that you DON'T have to hack or blast your way through every encounter. Ok, you might have to hack through quite a few, but high social skills, lockpicking, sneaking and computer hacking will, in some cases give you a easier and more subtle way to complete a quest, in addition to getting more xp and cash out of some quests.

This adds to the RPG feeling, since the only choice many of the so called RPG's out there only gives you is of the weapons or magic to kill everything with.

Have not played wod pen and paper, but what game master does not throw in unbeatable foes now and then? Or would you still attack the überdemon everyone knows is invulnerable with your lvl1 char and completely unmagical butterknife?

I can agree on that some of these non-fighting events are too hard for some character builds. Would not want to do this without celerity and/or walkthrough/forums, or the swimming in the sewers under King's way without celerity.

I guess it pays to remember that some parts of the joy of traditional WoD games is that things arent always fair... And sometimes no amount of planning or wit is going to replace blind, stupid luck. Any vampire, no matter how powerful, who runs into a pack of werewolves is going to be given a moment of pause... A neonate who finds himself trapped by them is almost certainly a goner.

In all honesty, if a story teller said to me "Your going into werewolf country?"
"Yes"
"And your enemies KNOW your going there?"
"Yes"
"And it's a full moon."
"Yes"
"Okay, you are never seen again, people assume you die a horrid death."

The only fair response I could give would be.

"Ok."

The first time I saw the werewolf I was stoked, I was about to kill something very big. I activated potence, celerity and bloodbuff (i disliked presence as it diminishes your foes rather then empowering yourself, personal prefference) whiped out the Tel'mahe'ra blade, hit it for about 300 points of damage and got slamed head first into a wall. At this time a friend of mine walked into my room and informed me that the brute was invulnerable. I then proceded to run like a little girl and with my friends advice killed it without too much hassle. His advice consisted of: "Run away, you can turn on those doors and then close them to crush it." Needless to say i was using Celerity 5 to survive.

I would just like to say that there are 4 things in almost all games that really anoy me. One is bottomless pits, the second is invisible walls (game-makers depend on these far to much, but then i always was a fan of gauss jumping), third is infinitly spawning NPC's and the fourth is immortal monsters. I would prefer that it had 50 million health points than be immortal, that atleast means that you can aggrevate it. ie...
"Lets taunt it."
"What Bl**dy good will that do?"
"Well, we might make it so angry that it makes a mistake."
"Like what??!!?"
Or something to that effect. (Aaah Monty Python.)

When i first played as Gangrel i thought that "war form" was becoming a werewolf......

IMHO, the werewolf situation is perfectly OK - imagine yourself being thrown bare-handed into a lion's cage. It doesn't really matter how much HP would the lion have, you would anyway end up very very dead Needless to say that lion would be quite alive afterwards, and certainly not really hungry anymore

The same goes for a vampire neonate meeting a werewolf, no matter how big badass you are you would certainly, again, end up dead, dead! Probabably an elder like Nines could have SOME chance, but certainly not you, childe

For any such a hopeless battle, you can quite freely consider your foe immortal and invulnerable from your point of view (like the above mentioned lion... you would really hurt it badly with your fists or fingernails, right? ), and that's just what the designers did, and i have no complaint about that.

Anyway, if that was made to give the player a good scare, it surely did work for me It rocks!

BTW.
If you dont' feel like running around the observatory or trick-killing the beast, there is quite an easy way to get out.

1) Run toward the burning trees as far as you can and hide behind the rock on the right. The Were will leave you alone there. And you will have enough time to heal from what he probably did to you while running to there.

2) Wait until the timer expires and the tram comes. During that time, observe how the Were moves around. You can hear him roaring and thrashing things around. You can give a peek or two around the rock to see where he is and what he's doing (sometimes he will spot you too, but no biggie - you just hide back before he comes... well unless if he's to near, you might get a whack or two )

3) After the timer expires run towards the tram station, can't miss it since you look straight at it when you live your hidey-hole. Choose a moment using what you learned about his pattern of behavior by observing him before. I believe the best moment is when he moves away and goes thrashing the observatory, but not sure. Now just run like hell straight to the station and very quickly enter it and into the tram. If you get the right moment, he'll not even be able to get to you before you enter. More likely it is he'll get at you when you enter the station, but if you hurry into the tram, he'll just manage to give you a whack or two . But, if he intercepts you on your way to the station, you'll probably get in big trouble . Try a better timing.

Fortitude works great, it allowed me to run past and behind him and perform all this run-and-hide without taking too much damage, even when he got in my way when trying to get to the tram. I believe that Bloodshield helps too, and Celerity would certainly make all that running much more carefree. Although, if I had Celerity, I'd probably try that "bservatory chase". Another time, perhaps

[QUOTE=Raa]IMHO, the werewolf situation is perfectly OK - imagine yourself being thrown bare-handed into a lion's cage. It doesn't really matter how much HP would the lion have, you would anyway end up very very dead Needless to say that lion would be quite alive afterwards, and certainly not really hungry anymore [/QUOTE]

You see, that isn't actually true. Animals do have minds, and for the most part they are not as sophisticated as a human mind. Hence, being thrown bare-handed into a lion's cage is not universally fatal - necessarily. There are a number of ways to overcome even a lion - if you're fast and clever. I've overcome creatures much stronger than myself in Real Life. Humans, Bulls, Wolves, even a Polar Bear once. I didn't manage to kill any of them, but that wasn't the objective. Getting out alive was the objective, and I satisfied it by being *clever*, not stronger, faster, or heavily armed.

If the Werewolf is really just a mindless killing machine, there should be a way to use that against it. If they were manifestly real in the world, there would be a way, because there always is. How do you think a race like ours has managed to dominate this planet? We're slow and weak, we have lousy senses, a crappy birth rate, no natural weaponry to speak of, and yet we not only survive, we control. Why? Intelligence.