Why is Terri Schiavo news?

[VonDondu]

I don't know how much I'm willing to say about this subject right now, for two reasons. First of all, I have deliberately avoided studying this particular case (although I have a way of absorbing a lot of information even about cases I'm trying to avoid). Second of all, I participated in a decision to disconnect a friend of mine from life support just three weeks ago, and I'm still kind of emotional about it, especially when I hear about the lowlifes in Congress and the White House violating all sorts of principles about federalism, conservatism, and the sanctity of marriage (not to mention some of the more important liberal principles I believe in) just so they can score a few political points with about 10% of the electorate. (Approximately 80%, including conservatives and evangelicals, support the decision of Terri's husband to let his wife die in peace, and approximately 10% can't make up their minds or just don't want to think about it.)

The main thought that springs to mind is, I sure am glad that Congress didn't pass a bill and get the signature of the President (who won't jump out of bed or put down a book like "My Pet Goat" for anything else) at 1:00 in the morning in order to stop my friend's adult children from having their father's life support disconnected and to have his case sent to (Christ) the United States Supreme Court. That's pretty low, even for Republicans, and they have really set the bar low for these past few years.

Doing something about embryos that are routinely disposed of at fertility clinics? Addressing the nation when over 100,000 people are killed by a natural disaster? Not cutting benefits to senior citizens who need better health care to stay alive? None of that is important to the people who supposedly believe in the so-called "culture of life". Terri Schiavo is a great way to score political points with the "right-to-lifers" in the Republican party base and to take the heat of off people like Congressman Tom DeLay, who is under investigation for ethics violations, or people in the Bush administration who ordered the torture of prisoners of the "war on terror", or people in the Bush administration who leaked the name of a CIA agent to the press to punish her husband for coming clean with the public about the Bush administration's lies, or conservatives who have recently been caught in sex scandals, or the fact that the Bush administration has been caught making payments to supposedly independent reporters and pundits to push the administration lies to the public, or anything else it is convenient for them to cover up.

[Thomas77]

It's interesting how this thread was originally about Terri Schiavo and her situation but has now become a rant on President Bush. Such is the way of things I suppose. All problems seem to lead to (or stem from I suppose) President Bush.

[CM]

Thoamas don't take it to heart but alot of people don't like President Bush. I however as a Pakistani do agree with certain policies and his conservative ideals/nature. Just because this place a liberal environment that does not mean you should voice your support for Bush.

I personally agree that people should not be taken off life support by someone else. Secondly I do think the govt if it wants to can regulate such an issue by law if it wants to. It it has the support of the people.

[Thomas77]

No personal offense taken CM, just making an observation. I knew when I originally posted that I would probably be heavily disputed, I'm accustomed to wandering the lairs of my opponents....

[jopperm2]

[QUOTE=CM] Just because this place a liberal environment that does not mean you should voice your support for Bush.
[/QUOTE]


Don't you mean Shouldn't?

ALso, I don't want to come off like I disagree with everything he does. I just hate how this went down.

[CM]

Yup that is what i mean. Plus i will respond to your pms today some time Jop. I promise!

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=Thomas77]It's interesting how this thread was originally about Terri Schiavo and her situation but has now become a rant on President Bush. Such is the way of things I suppose. All problems seem to lead to (or stem from I suppose) President Bush.[/QUOTE]
It's disgusting how Terri Schiavo's situation started out as a private matter between her and her family but has turned into, in the words of Tom DeLay to the Family Research Council, a "thing that God has brought to us...to elevate the visibility of what's going on in America." All things seem to be twisted to serve the needs of people like Tom DeLay.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=Vicsun]For the record, while this probably doesn't come as a surprise to anyone, I personally believe Terri Schiavo should be euthanized along with everyone who staged 'Live Terri! Live!" protests and thus forced every major news network to saturate the media with this pointlessness.

edit: No spam, thanks.[/QUOTE]
I thought that remark was spam until I read your "no spam" comment below it, but now I've decided to treat it with the dignity it deserves.

There's a big difference between euthanizing a patient (which is still against the law in most American states) and allowing her to die from lack of care. The issue in this particular case is about removing Terri's feeding tube. She can't feed herself, so without a feeding tube, she will die. I assume that even without the feeding tube, she'll be given doses of morphine to keep her comfortable (which means she'll always receive some form of care), but I suppose that depends on the policies of the facility she's in. In practice, in some cases some nurses increase the dose of morphine to help speed things along, but that is not "officially" sanctioned by the medical profession.

My own opinion is that people who did not make their wishes clear before they became unable to express their wishes should not be euthanized, but neither should other people take extraordinary steps to keep them alive if they are in an unrecoverable, terminal condition. (Edit: To clarify what I mean, I think that life support should be withheld from patients who are in a hopeless condition, but I don't think they should be euthanized unless they have requested it.) The problem seems to be that Terri Schiavo does not have an end-stage disease per se; she simply isn't capable of feeding herself (or doing anything else for herself). (Edit: In other words, as I understand it, she won't die any time soon unless other people stop feeding her.) If she had cancer or some other life-threatening disease, I think the case would be a lot more clear-cut. (Edit: Then it would be easier to make the decision to remove her feeding tube, because she would die of natural causes rather than starvation.) I should point out that, unlike Senator Bill Frist, I can't look at a video of her and make a definitive diagnosis of her condition. (I think I should send Senator Frist a video of the spots on my cat's neck and ask him to give me a definitive diagnosis.)

"Euthanizing" people who are exercising their right to free speech is, of course, murder, plain and simple. Neither governments nor people such as yourself who would rather leave the media open for the things that would saturate if it weren't for the Schiavo case (such as the Michael Jackson trial) should be permitted to murder other people. You're very misguided if you think that something better than the Schiavo case could occupy people's attention.

[jopperm2]

[QUOTE=VonDondu] I assume that even without the feeding tube, she'll be given doses of morphine to keep her comfortable (which means she'll always receive some form of care), but I suppose that depends on the policies of the facility she's in. In practice, in some cases some nurses increase the dose of morphine to help speed things along, but that is not "officially" sanctioned by the medical profession.
[/QUOTE]

THis is what happened at Hospice when my father was dying of cancer and we(him included) decided to cease treatment. As his cancer got worse, they upped the morphine, then they upped it to near comatose levels. Seeing the condition he was in, I'm glad they did. He was in immense pain.

I read the court documents cited earlier and the doctors all agreed that her death would be completely painless. It doesn't mention whether this is from the state of her brain, or narcotics, but I suppose it doesn't matter much really.

BTW, I pretty much agree with your points above VD.

@Fas, don't worry about it. I'm going home soon and coming back monday. You have time. I'm sure Easter won't hold you up much.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=Vicsun]Why does her death (or life) matter to so many people? Why all the protests?[/QUOTE]
The main "protest" as you call it comes from Terri Schiavo's parents, who are fighting to keep her attached to a feeding tube. Some people say that this case is about Terri's right to life, but if nobody who had a say in Terri's fate was determined to keep her alive as long as possible, we wouldn't be talking about her fate right now. In other words, if nobody wanted to keep Terri alive, nobody would be talking about Terri's right to life. The logical deduction to be made from this case is that people have the right to live only if someone else wants them to live. It's the same thing with embryos in fertility clinics. If someone wants an embryo to live, then it has the right to live. If no one cares about a discarded embryo, then it doesn't have the right to live. (But God forbid that it be used in any stem cell research.) All of our rights are determined by how other people feel about us, apparently. That is so seriously messed up, I don't think that most of the arguments I've heard lately from the so-called "right to lifers" deserve any respect.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=jopperm2]THis is what happened at Hospice when my father was dying of cancer and we(him included) decided to cease treatment. As his cancer got worse, they upped the morphine, then they upped it to near comatose levels. Seeing the condition he was in, I'm glad they did. He was in immense pain.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry to hear about your father.

When my friend was taken off life support, my initial thought was that it wouldn't take him long to die, since he could hardly breathe on his own. (He had emphysema and pneumonia.) As it turns out, he held on for nearly twelve hours. He was unconscious the whole time (he had practically been in a coma for the preceding two weeks), but to those of us in his room, it looked like he was suffering. I kept thinking that euthanasia would spare him a lot of pain, but if I were given the choice, I don't think I would have euthanized him. He didn't want to die, and I don't think he was ready for it. He had lived his whole life in fear of death, and he had deluded himself into thinking that he wasn't sick. But when your lungs fail, you can't argue with that. I just wanted him to die peacefully of natural causes.

Even so, it did not escape my notice when the nurse started giving him very large, more frequent doses of morphine, and I was privately very thankful for that. I couldn't reconcile it with my philosophical beliefs, but it sure did make me feel better.

In hindsight, given the fact that his time was up, I don't think it was so bad. I tell everybody that he died peacefully in his sleep. I think it was easier for him than for those of us who have to grieve for him.

[Magrus]

I didn't know anything about the woman, or the situation until just today reading this thread. Going into that, it seems as though she's essentially a vegetable now yes? If there isn't hope for recovering, I'd say it's a good idea to let her die. If there is, well, thats an entirely different matter.

As to the comments made just above this, I've noticed something I dislike incredibly with death. Based on my own personaly beliefs, and now, my own personal situation, I've always been comfortable with it. Granted, someone dying that I care about will make me miserable and upset and miss them. However, I know, and act upon those emotions. I'm miserable because I miss them. Those around me throw fits about how the dead person would want things, and how horrible it is they are gone, and how wrong it was and blah blah blah. Grow up, YOUR miserable because YOU miss said person. Period. Generally those people throwing the fits want everything THEIR way, to comfort them. I've gotten into very nasty arguments with my family on this whole topic. Telling them they'd be upsetting our dead relative by being so miserable for months on end and such. I know they would have wanted everyone to grieve and move on, be happy again. Not what happened though. It truly upset me.

I can see how the husband might feel that way. If I saw the girl I loved stuck in a bed and no way for her to be out, I'd look at her dying as setting her free.

[Chanak]

@fable: Bringing up Dubyah's actions when he was governor of the state I work for was a good point, and one I myself thought of when I began reading this thread.

It never ceases to amaze me how some odious individuals turn a family's private affairs to their own gain. This unfortunately drives home your point concerning President Bush. The federal budget proposal he submitted represents yet another side of this compassionate, caring man: slashes to Medicare that make Reagan's cuts look modest. In addition, Medicaid would be scaled back, leaving governors protesting very loudly to Washington. Interesting, considering that Terry Schiavo is perhaps the highest profile Medicare/Medicaid patient in the US at this time. I truly wonder if Terry's parents' claims to foot her medical bills is valid. On average, it costs over $40,000 per year to maintain tube-feedings to patients who require them. This does not include the other care services required by such patients. The care must be executed by skilled nursing staff, or employees under the direct supervision of skilled nursing staff. An educational program is run by the agency I work for here, which trains certified long term care aides to be feeding assistants.

It is only too painfully obvious that Bush and DeLay see their opportunity here. How many other cases are there in nursing homes across the US like Terry's? In Texas alone? (there are hundreds like hers here in Texas) This is absolutely shameful, disgusting, and demonstrates just how low some are willing to go. The actions of Bush and DeLay are beyond reprehensible. Let us remember how much Dubyah cares if he sees his proposed budget pass through Congress. Funding to the Pentagon increases drastically, and funding to health and human services is razed abhorrently. All the while, he puts on an act like some sort of moral crusader over Terry Schiavo and the gullible buy it.

[C Elegans]

[QUOTE=Thomas77]The debate is whether there is a possibility of any recovery, even if partially. Adult Stem cell research has showing promising results for quite a few afflictions. Terri's parents are merely holding out hope. I see no wrong in that.[/QUOTE]

I would very much like to see references to any experimental data that implicate that adult stem cell research could generate brain tissue that could be functioning in a person. This is total science fiction. Whoever is using stem cell research (even embryonic stem cells) as an argument is the case of Terri Schiavo must be totally ignorant about medical research.

There was a case in Britain a while ago where the deeply christian parents of a severely handicapped and brain damaged child were "hoping for a miracle" instead of letting the child die. Hoping for a god to intervene or hoping for adult stem cell reseach to save Terri Schiavo, is deeply wrong IMO since making decisions about other people based on such unlikely and hazardous situations, is very unfair to the other person.

[fable]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]I would very much like to see references to any experimental data that implicate that adult stem cell research could generate brain tissue that could be functioning in a person. This is total science fiction. Whoever is using stem cell research (even embryonic stem cells) as an argument is the case of Terri Schiavo must be totally ignorant about medical research. [/QUOTE]

Schiavo's parents and lawyer are using blatant fiction in many respects in this case, I'm afraid. Despite the fact that her attending physicians have repeatedly stated that she has been in a completely vegetative state without change for 15 years, her parents insist she is fully aware of their presence about a year ago and "flirting" with the lawyer they've brought in to see her on occasion. When people choose to listen to lawyers and politicians to find out the medical condition of a patient, something is truly wrong in the way their sense of reality works.

[C Elegans]

@Fable: It is understandable but very sad that the family choose to believe in in these fantasies. I am not well read into the case, do you think the parents minds are clouded by desperate hope and that they are manipulated by lawyers, or is it something else behind their interpretation? The adult stem cell research will be nowhere near an impact on Terri Schiavo's state in her lifetime even if she lives until she's 85. Growing a cortical tissue from even embryonic stem cells is total science fiction, we actually have no idea how the body grows a brain, and even if this would be possible in 100 years, that brain would be a new brain, not the brain of the brain dead person.

What in medicine is called a "vegetative state" is difficult for desparing and hoping laymen to understand. I remember when my grandfather's sister, whom I was very, very close to, died of a massive haemorrage in the cerebellum some years ago. Like Terry Schiavo, my relative had basic brain stem and spinal cord reflexes, which her poor daughter who just couldn't accept the death of her mother, interpreted as signs of consciousness and contact. For instance, she believed that her mother was trying to speak when she heard sounds from her throat, sounds that can occur because fluids collect when people lie down on their backs all the time with no breathing and swallowing reflex. She also believed that spinal cord reflex motor finger motor movements were attempts to hold her hand, and that reflex eye movements were attempts to look at her, etc. I tried and triend to convince the daugther that the doctors were right, that these movements were not sighs of consciousness and sign of her mother still being "with us" in some sense.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Growing a cortical tissue from even embryonic stem cells is total science fiction, we actually have no idea how the body grows a brain, and even if this would be possible in 100 years, that brain would be a new brain, not the brain of the brain dead person...[/QUOTE]
So if she a grew a new brain, she wouldn't really be the same person, but that obviously doesn't make any difference to the people who advocate it. That gives me an idea. Why don't they give Terri a brain transplant from someone who has a good brain but needs a good body? I think I read about a monkey or a baboon that got a full head transplant several years ago. Surely I'm not the only one who advocates it. (Giving Terri another human brain, that is, not a baboon brain.) Science is catching up to science fiction faster than you think (except when it comes to computers, which will always be primitive as long as Microsoft and Intel run the industry). When it comes to brain transplants, I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, and I can hardly wait for a lot of people to get them.

[mewp]

not political

I do not think that politics is at the root of this. Pundits are trying to make it so and too many people are falling into that trap. This is about weather or not to let a woman die from starvation and dehydration, and her parents that want to keep their child alive, as opposed to a husband that has been anxiously trying to make her die.
I would wonder why? I understand that he has not done much in allowing her therapy to see if there could be any improvement. I know if this was my child and there was even a glimmer of hope for her I fight to the death to see that she is given a chance. The guardianship if Terri should have been taken away from her husband as soon as he started bringing his girlfriend into see her.
She is not on life support. She never has been. There are quite a few normally functioning people that have to be fed with a tube. Life support is not even in question here.
If would have been kinder to shoot her in the head than to have to endure this.

[C Elegans]

Why don't they give Terri a brain transplant from someone who has a good brain but needs a good body? I think I read about a monkey or a baboon that got a full head transplant several years ago.

That would be an excellent idea if it was possible within the next 50 years or so, which I highly doubt. No even near succesful brain transplants have ever been made, not even in rodents. Popular media sometimes call neurotransplantation, transplantation of brain cells or brain tissue, for "brain transplantation" although the current neurotransplants only involves very few cells (like in Parkinson's transpants of dopaminergic cells).

The monkey you read about was probably the (in)famous Rhesus monkey head transplant performed in the 1970's. The surgeon team called the operation "successful" because the animal did not die within minutes - they actually managed to keep it alive for 8 days, and during these 8 days it showed signs of nervous system activity such facial nerve responses and consciousness. However, they did of course not manage to attach the spinal cords to each other. As far as I know, there has never been a head transplant where the animal has been able to breath by itself. So it's a long way to go yet.

Science is catching up to science fiction faster than you think (except when it comes to computers, which will always be primitive as long as Microsoft and Intel run the industry). When it comes to brain transplants, I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, and I can hardly wait for a lot of people to get them.

I doubt you will see it during your lifetime. In some areas science is catching up with science fiction, in some areas it is not and in some areas it has taken other developments than any science fiction writer could ever imagine. The use of viral vectors to change DNA has probably gone faster than anyone could imagine. Transplantation science has probably gone slower than most people imagined 30 years ago. Just to name two examples.

[VonDondu]

Well, I can still wish that people could get new brains, can't I?