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I've traditionally used Keldorn. The ready dispel magic, true sight and use of the Holy Avenger have always been too good for me to pass up. But I see no reason why Mazzy (or any of the major NPC tanks) isn't nearly as capable.

[QUOTE=fable]So you're saying Mazzy has the hit points of Keldorn, thus acting as a tank: someone who can withstand being subjected to concentrated melee attacks from several parties at once?[/QUOTE]Definately.

Mazzy has Con 16, Keldorn has 17. That's a mere difference of 9 hp at any level up from 9. Mazzy has Dex 18 where Keldorn has 9, therefore she has a 4 point better AC - and I guess that basic 20% chance not to take a hit compensates a 9 hp disadvantage. Besides that, Mazzy is a fighter and doesn't necessarily stop at the point of weapon specialization - in fact she comes with one mastery and one grand mastery.

For sheer fighter abilities, Mazzy is the strongest character you can get in SoA. Some kind of "female halfling" stereotype may obscure this fact, well, just try it ...

[QUOTE=Phantom Lord]Mazzy has Con 16, Keldorn has 17. That's a mere difference of 9 hp at any level up from 9. Mazzy has Dex 18 where Keldorn has 9, therefore she has a 4 point better AC - and I guess that basic 20% chance not to take a hit compensates a 9 hp disadvantage. Besides that, Mazzy is a fighter and doesn't necessarily stop at the point of weapon specialization - in fact she comes with one mastery and one grand mastery.[/quote]

But what are Mazzy's hitpoints, and Keldorn's? I used Mazzy in only one game, and dropped her after a few levels because she was always getting killed. By contrast, Keldorn didn't seem to have that problem. Either the odds were pretty skewed in their respective battles (and I never did any one-on-one analysis), or Keldorn simply was given higher hitpoints to start with.

For sheer fighter abilities, Mazzy is the strongest character you can get in SoA. Some kind of "female halfling" stereotype may obscure this fact, well, just try it ...

No, I don't stereotype, not even female halfings. In fact, I regularly fight, both slyly and openly, against such stereotypes in my own fiction. But I still maintain that Keldorn has the abilities and the sword that make him a better choice, everything else being what it is. Obviously, we are just going to have disagree on this point.

[QUOTE=fable]But what are Mazzy's hitpoints, and Keldorn's? I used Mazzy in only one game, and dropped her after a few levels because she was always getting killed. By contrast, Keldorn didn't seem to have that problem. Either the odds were pretty skewed in their respective battles (and I never did any one-on-one analysis), or Keldorn simply was given higher hitpoints to start with.
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Ok, as best as I can tell (assuming some weird mod I've downloaded isn't interfering), Keldorn's only hit point advantage over Mazzy is by virtue of his Constitution bonus (i.e. so 1 hit point additional per level). In fact, Mazzy starts out at level 9, and Keldorn at level 8. As such, Mazzy actually begins with more hit points than Keldorn.

With that said, you may have experienced this disparity in ability by virtue of Keldorn's starting equipment. His gear is significantly better than Mazzy's. In fact, his Hallowed Redeemer will deal five points of magic damage to anyone who damages him and he starts with a variant of Full Plate Armor. Quite frankly, he begins the game as a much better offensive choice than most other NPCs. This changes as the others get geared up.

So, as far as "tankage" goes, the only pertinent defensive factor is dexterity and Keldorn's slight hit point bonus. Mazzy's dexterity is far superior to Keldorn, so unless his is brought up she's actually the better defensive tank. Now, the case can probably be made, that boosting his dexterity to 18 with the pertinent item, will actually make him the superior tank. Regardless, the point remains, the difference between the two as far as pure defensive abilities are concerned, is minimal at best.

Still, Keldorn has the nifty immunities to Hold and Charm, the ability to wield the Holy Avenger (which is simply an awesome weapon), Dispel Magic, True Sight (pretty much on call) and several other abilities (including a superior strength score; though that's much easier to raise in BG2 than dex) which may give him the edge in terms of overall NPC. But for pure tankage raw stat wise, Mazzy has the immediate edge. And, quite frankly, both can be very effective characters to have in the party.

I was thinking about my party again, and I realised that I have no pure mages.

Aerie and Jan are muticlassed mages, while Keto is only a greatly restricted spellcaster.

So far, I hate

Figther/Druid
Keldorn (Also refered as "Keldy" by Jan )
Keto
Aerie
Jan Jansen

What if I drop Aerie (I used her in most of my good and neutral parties so far... wich is 5 or more times!),
Recruit Anomen and Nalia (and/or Imoen) ? Should I use Mazzy instead of Anomen? Do I really need a cleric since my PC is a druid?

I would now have :
- Fighter/Druid
- Keldorn
- Anomen or Mazzy
- Keto
- Jan Jansen
- Nalia or Imoen (Or both, Nalia before Brynnlaw, Imoen after..)

Another question : Will mazzy get profiencies every 3 levels until lvl40, or will it stop someday?

Your party is fairly balanced, as is. Though, if you really want a pure spell caster in your party, I think you could definitely get away without a cleric.

Personally between Nalia and Imoen, I prefer Imoen. She seems to have more interesting dialogues late in the game (that is, unless you've just used her so many times, you want a change of pace). However, if you want a pure spell caster that's not Nalia and Imoen, Kelsey is good as well (Sorceror). He's another of the more popular mods out there, put together by some of the same folks that did Keto. The two NPCs even have banters with each other.

Well, you know I'm a fan of Mazzy, but for your party I think Anomen works well. It gives you a "true" cleric that can fight also.

BTW, I loaded my game from the time I played Mazzy (just out of my own curiosity) to check her stats. I got her to 33rd level (she had 15 weapon proficiencies to answer your ?), 5 in short sword and bow, 3 in dual-wielding, 1 each in scimitar and axe. Her THACO for Tuigans Bow was -9 (5 att./rd) and -12 with Darkfire (4 att./rd.), DW short swords w/sword of mask and Albane's had a main THACO of -8 and off THACO of -6 (5 att./rd. also). I know people have posted much more incredible stats, but she was a very powerful fighter for me in that game. With Whirlwind and Greater Deathblow, she was a machine. Oh, and 188 HP.

[QUOTE=Faust]Your party is fairly balanced, as is. Though, if you really want a pure spell caster in your party, I think you could definitely get away without a cleric. [/QUOTE]

Good... because I'm so paranioac (Or is it paranoid?) I've never played BG1, BG2, IWD1 and IWD2 without a cleric, unless I soloed...

[QUOTE=Faust]Personally between Nalia and Imoen, I prefer Imoen. She seems to have more interesting dialogues late in the game (that is, unless you've just used her so many times, you want a change of pace).[/QUOTE]

Well, I've used Nalia only once, and Imoen twice... they are pretty identical for stats.. except that Nalia can wear a belt and have a ring (+2 AC/Saves, and +50% resist fire... that's a good ring!). Also, since I have Jan, I won't need any other thief...

[QUOTE=Faust]However, if you want a pure spell caster that's not Nalia and Imoen, Kelsey is good as well (Sorceror). He's another of the more popular mods out there, put together by some of the same folks that did Keto. The two NPCs even have banters with each other.[/QUOTE]

Well... that's interesting! I didn't know Kelsey had banters with Keto! And my PC is a female... so I could romance him too! I played with Kelsey once. He's powerful (all sorcerors are I guess...), but only as strong as Edwin... so he seemed balanced to me.

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If I follow your suggestions... I would go with :

- PC (Fighter/Druid)
- Keldorn
- Mazzy
- Keto
- Jan Jansen
- Kelsey

This leaves me with enough :

- Magical fire-power... (Kelsey/Keto/Jan)
- Brutal force users (PC, Keldorn, Mazzy)
- Thieving abilities (Keto for pickpocketing, Jan for the rest)
- Healing powers (PC)

I have another question : Are druid able to cast Heal? (LVL6 Divine Spell)

[QUOTE=SP101]Well... that's interesting! I didn't know Kelsey had banters with Keto! And my PC is a female... so I could romance him too! I played with Kelsey once. He's powerful (all sorcerors are I guess...), but only as strong as Edwin... so he seemed balanced to me. [/Quote]

To get the banters, you need to install Keto after Kelsey. The banter Keto-Kelsey banter is an optional component that comes with the Keto mod. So in order to install that component, you'll need to have Kelsey already installed. Make sense?

Kelsey is a fairly balanced NPC mod from my experience with him. In fact, his stats are a bit lower than an Edwin I believe. Sorceror's are just very potent and useful in their own right, being able to chose your spells on the fly is a major advantage. Also, Kelsey has his own side quest and lots of banters, as well. So he's entertaining to have around. And, while I've never played a female PC, I know his romance option is preferred to Anomen by many.

If you're playing a female PC, you might enjoy taking Anomen over Mazzy, particularly if you're taking Kelsey as well. I've heard the bickering over the female PC can be entertaining.

Oh, and yes, druids do get the "heal" spell.

Anyway, sounds like you've got a good party whichever way you decide to go.

[QUOTE=fable]Obviously, we are just going to have disagree on this point. [/QUOTE]Yes, we may just have to.

I just think it's a pity that Mazzy is quite underrated - she was a very positve surprise when I had her in my party for the first time. But then I guess there are characters that I underrate or outright don't play for no obvious reason too.

Keldorn is strong for sure, but it's partly Carsomyr that puts him up there, so I wouldn't attribute it all directly to the character. Unfortunately I can't explain your concern with Keldorns hp advantage (no saves with both chars at hand), but it sounds like bad luck. As for Keldorn's abilities - his True Sight is of course great and his other are pretty strong too.

Edit: @SP101 - that party should do pretty well. Nice compromise too take Mazzy and Keldorn.

Edit: @Flounder - could you check Mazzys special abilities in your save, I believe she has a lay on hands ability but I'm not exactly sure if I'm confusing something?

I checked the hit points. As I said earlier, the only difference in their starting hit points is Keldorn's 1 point Constitution bonus. He'll receive 1 more hp a level. Of course, Mazzy will gain levels slightly quicker.

Mazzy does have several innate abilities including a version of lay on hands. She also has Courage, Strength, and Haste. She's got a wacky, edited version of the Truesword of Arvoreen kit.

I would agree, however, that Carsomyr is the real defining difference between the two NPCs. There is just no weapon out there as good situationally as the Holy Avenger. This can make Keldorn a very strong party member. Though, certainly a Mazzy, Minsc, Korgon, or Sarevok can be a significant tank as well.

[QUOTE=fable]But what are Mazzy's hitpoints, and Keldorn's? I used Mazzy in only one game, and dropped her after a few levels because she was always getting killed. By contrast, Keldorn didn't seem to have that problem. Either the odds were pretty skewed in their respective battles (and I never did any one-on-one analysis), or Keldorn simply was given higher hitpoints to start with.

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paladin saves...this is why keldorn is a very powerful character...paladins tend to make all or most of their saves...give him some save enhancing items, and holy avenger, and the combination of high magic resistance and excellent saves makes him almost unstoppable.

One problem you may encounter with having both Keldorn and Anomen is both have less than impressive dexterity scores, which may be a problem given the reduced number of dexterity boosting items in the game.

Personally using your current line up I'd opt for

PC (Fighter/Druid)
Mazzy
Anomen instead of Keldorn
Keto
Kelsey
Jan

Yes this party may not be as powerful but it will certainly be more fun and challenging to play.

[QUOTE=Faust]I've not studied the stats closely (and never really used Mazzy), but does Keldorn have a big hit point advantage over Mazzy? Considering that there starting Constitutions are 17 and 16 respectively, they should be roughly parallel in terms of hit point. That is, unless Bioware did some NPC voodoo, which is entirely possible![/QUOTE]

Keldorn has a HUGE dispell hability. And its casted in real-time, what means you may cast and engage combat very quickly, with the enemy mages without protection. Ms Fentan, in the other hand, would have a flurry of blows with short swords/daggers but she may just be fried dead by a barrage of spells while she cant reach the caster.

And man, Keldorn wields the Carsormyr... Carsy +6 versus Masky +5 goes:

+50% magic resistance, dispell and strong hits against evil against 15% chance of entanglement and level drain.

I'd keep Keldorn.

[QUOTE=UserUnfriendly]paladin saves...this is why keldorn is a very powerful character...paladins tend to make all or most of their saves...give him some save enhancing items, and holy avenger, and the combination of high magic resistance and excellent saves makes him almost unstoppable. [/QUOTE]

Forgot that point--thanks for reminding me of it.

[QUOTE=Raven_Song]One problem you may encounter with having both Keldorn and Anomen is both have less than impressive dexterity scores, which may be a problem given the reduced number of dexterity boosting items in the game.

Personally using your current line up I'd opt for

PC (Fighter/Druid)
Mazzy
Anomen instead of Keldorn
Keto
Kelsey
Jan

Yes this party may not be as powerful but it will certainly be more fun and challenging to play.[/QUOTE]

I think I'll stick with Keldy ... mainly because he's what my party needs, and also because he has great banters with Kelsey and Jan if I recall correctly!

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Carsy +6 versus Masky +5 goes:

+50% magic resistance, dispell and strong hits against evil against 15% chance of entanglement and level drain.[/QUOTE]That's correct if you compare them 1:1, but keep in mind that SSoM is one-handed. For a valid comparison, add either a powerful second one-handed weapon to SSoM or the effects of a powerful shield.

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Keldorn has a HUGE dispell hability. And its casted in real-time, what means you may cast and engage combat very quickly, with the enemy mages without protection. Ms Fentan, in the other hand, would have a flurry of blows with short swords/daggers but she may just be fried dead by a barrage of spells while she cant reach the caster.

And man, Keldorn wields the Carsormyr... Carsy +6 versus Masky +5 goes:

+50% magic resistance, dispell and strong hits against evil against 15% chance of entanglement and level drain.

I'd keep Keldorn.[/QUOTE]

I'd agree that Keldorn brings much to the table than a normal fighter/ranger type does not. I'm a big fan of paladins.Certainly, a paladin wielding the Holy Avenger is the ultimate mage killer. Likewise, the Inquisitor kit in itself gives you several advantages in that direction.

But, the question was in terms of pure "tankage." Mazzy takes a hit as well as Keldorn, which was the point that many of us were trying to make. The position was made that she did not, this is what we were trying to dispell. I've never understood the perspective of those who would argue contrary. It just does't flow logically from the stats.

The paladin save bonus is decent, but not as significant in 2nd edition as it is in 3rd edition. Still, the 2 point save bonus is scertainly nothing to laugh at and something that helps bridge the power gap left in the wake of fighter advanced specialization.

[QUOTE=Phantom Lord]That's correct if you compare them 1:1, but keep in mind that SSoM is one-handed. For a valid comparison, add either a powerful second one-handed weapon to SSoM or the effects of a powerful shield.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm taking it this way: You'll keep mazzy with her bow in the second weapon slot, and you'll use the sword with single weapon proficiency. But of course... Wich weapon you propose? I'd use a katana - like hindo's doom- or the shield of the order +4. And I'll still keep with Keldorn. Her armor core or specific elemental resistances would be increased, but not her overall resistances and hitting rate, except for the extra atacks on the off-hand. And magic resistance is 50% shield against a helluva lot of possible incoming atacks.

Anyway, this is a discussion that has been brought up so many times "What is better than Carsormyr" "Wich fighter you like best" . I love this kind of discussions...

@UU: I've played Jaheira once, and gave her the staff of the ram. Nothing could stop her, and with the backup of my barbarian NPC - wielding FoA and the Answerer +4 - no Bhaalspawn, lich or improved battles could stand in our way. But I still prefer to use the other tanks. Iron skins seems a little too cheesy for me.

@Faust: If you think about whacking, and only whacking (lets say, equip the character with default weapons (no bonuses) I'd still keep the paladin(personal preference). But if you dont like him, thats another personal preference... but think: when you get to ToB you can just swap characters and keep your dearest brother: Sarevok is a havoc. And his banters are cool. And he hits a lot, with the possibilty of that special hit of his (I cant remember the name, sorry). I really dont like Mazzy Fentan; and the only time I enjoyed playing with her I had hacked her to a paladin, wielding bastard swords.

Also, let me suggest you consider dualing Sarevok to a Theif in TOB. I have made my F-> Th proclivity well known in the past- they are super-duper powerful.