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The romances went nowhere because the game was released incomplete. You have to take that into consideration, too. Once someone somewhere finally releases something to complete the game, we could probably make a better comparison between the two as far as the romances and side-plots went. But those loose ends are annoying as anything.

I agree that we should consider the fact that the game was released "incomplete". However, when a game is released, it is released. Period. Admitting the flaws is always better than trying to cover it with excuses.

[QUOTE=Night_Hawk]In KOTOR I, although the scope is smaller, the story was better designed and completed. From Jolee Bindo (one of my favorites) to Juhanni, Carth, Bastila, Mission, Zaalbar, etc. Each of those characters had his/her own sidequests and private stories that made you feel involved and satisfied when you got to the end of those stories.[/quote]

Actually, I found the writing in KotoR1 poor and stereotypical: Canderous is the Grim But War-Weary Veteran, Mission is the Agile, Annoying, Smart-Talking Street Brat, etc. Their little pieces of dialog seemed to me far below the average Bioware and BIS showed in Planescape: Torment and BG2.

For example (I know you are probably sick of hearing this ), if you were playing a male character in KOTOR I, you only had one character (Bastila) to romance with, while in KOTOR II, you had two characters (Handmaiden and Visas) to romance with. However, the romance in KOTOR II led to no where while the romance in KOTOR I led to a satisfactory result. Sheer numbers do not compare to quality!!!

Bastila's conversations were the usual nonsense, and her character was uninteresting. By contrast, both the female characters available for romance had intricate personalities and fascinating perspectives of their own in KotoR2.

...how many people miss Bastila after finishing the game?

Aside from the way the jutting rear worked when she swayed in that small outfit? Nothing.

...how many people actually miss Visas and Handmaiden after finishing the game?

Let me put it to you this way: I missed each, because I wanted to hear more of what their worlds were like. Even more, I missed that superb creation, Kreia, who was as wonderfully nasty a piece of work as I've ever seen in a movie or read in a novel--and trust me, my reading is considerable.

The story line and the character design are the two most critical aspects of an RPG. Although KOTOR II has a more detail story-line and more dynamic character design, the story has loose-end every where, and the character designs lack the uniqueness and impression like those in KOTOR I. Therefore, KOTOR I beats KOTOR II outright on both those critical aspects.

Therefore, we must differ. The storyline was entirely "there" in KotoR2, but LucasArts forced a quick ending that left out details and a good deal of cleanup. Despite this, KotoR2 felt more like moving among genuine people, while KotoR1 felt like I was moving through a comic strip with exaggerated heroics and villainies at every turn.

I wasn't surprised after finishing KotoR2 to discover that the project leader and writer was the same one used on PS:T. There is that same quality of intensity and uniqueness to every person in your party. I only wish LucasArts had allowed the game to be finished before release. The fact that gamers have simply shelled in their cash rather than withheld it says a lot about how supine they are, and what they will settle for--and that will only encourage LucasArts to do the same in their Star Wars: The Further Quest for Money in the future.

Well, I kinda see your points there, Fable. In my opinion (I haven't chatted with Canderous much in KOTOR I, so I don't know much about his personal stories or sidequests), I prefer the characters in KOTOR I for a mere fact that those characters seemed more completed to me, NOT like "I want to hear more about them and their homelands in the next sequel". That's the reason why I didn't like the characters in KOTOR II. By the end of the game, they left me hanging with dozens of questions and possibilities that won't be answered or clarified until the next sequel (which is in about 2 years or more ). On the contrary, after finishing KOTOR I, I felt more satisfied because the game was completed (eventhough its story wasn't as dynamic as in KOTOR II). I spent my money on a game, so I expected to see a completed one, not one that left me hanging with frustration!

On the side note, on the contrary with you, I liked the "nonsense" parts of the Bastila character. (That's where we differ . ). I loved chatting with Jolee Bindo because he made jokes all the time (I love it whenever I used "Force Persuade" on an NPC, and Jolee Bindo jumped in with his humor).

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" and that will only encourage LucasArts to do the same in their Star Wars: The Further Quest for Money in the future." - fable
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I have no problem with that. After all, it's a bussiness place, and in the world of bussiness, "$$$$$" is their top priority. However, whenever they decide to release a product, please please please make damn sure that it's a completed one. Frankly, what pissed me off the most was that KOTOR I was worth every penny I spent on while KOTOR II didn't worth the kind of money I paid for.

(I remembered when Sierra, or whatever company, released "Lord of the Realm III". Instead of charging the usual $50 for a new game, Sierra decided to charge only $30 because it didn't think that the game was worth $50. At the very least, Sierra was honest to their customers!)

On the side note, on the contrary with you, I liked the "nonsense" parts of the Bastila character. (That's where we differ . ). I loved chatting with Jolee Bindo because he made jokes all the time (I love it whenever I used "Force Persuade" on an NPC, and Jolee Bindo jumped in with his humor).

Just for clarification's sake, I really like the diversity of background material--look at all the drily-witted humor brought by Goto to KotoR2: classic stuff. What I meant was that Bastila's responses, especially in the romances, seemed very cliched. I felt like I was reading a poorly written novel. By contrast, the I never got that impression from any of the KotoR2 party NPC pool. And Atton seemed to me clearly meant as something of an inside joke: a character who appears to be a standard wisecracking, morally neutral, thief type--until you break the shell, and discover that there's a welter of hurt, guilt, and shame in his core. Very nicely done.

I have no problem with that. After all, it's a bussiness place, and in the world of bussiness, "$$$$$" is their top priority. However, whenever they decide to release a product, please please please make damn sure that it's a completed one. Frankly, what pissed me off the most was that KOTOR I was worth every penny I spent on while KOTOR II didn't worth the kind of money I paid for.

There, with respect, I would both agree and disagree: I feel neither title was actually worth the money, representing a severe dumbing down both on the puzzle and combat level (and in KotoR1, writing, as well) of Bioware's older title, BG2. On the other hand, if you feel that way strongly about KotoR2, I would have urged you to return it to the store, and send a message, loud and clear, to Lucasarts that this kind of thing isn't going to be tolerated. As it is, they won't see the complaints in the forums. They'll only see their Profit & Loss statement. And that's where you have to vote.

If I could return an openned game, I would have done it already! Do they have a forum where I can go on and complain? (and get them to listen LOL).

[QUOTE=Night_Hawk]If I could return an openned game, I would have done it already! Do they have a forum where I can go on and complain? (and get them to listen LOL).[/QUOTE]

That last part is the kicker. No, you need to find a vendor that will let you try the game, and return it in a short period of time is dissatisfied. Such used to be the case at Electronics Boutique, but they discontinued that, presumably because they could make more money, this way. Alternatively, you could try renting a game (quite legal, in some countries) before buying.

Or boycott Lucasarts. As if the fanboys (not you) will ever do that.

I will rent KOTOR III before buying it. Thanks, Fable. (I should have done it with KOTOR II).

Okay, Carth just told me about holding his wife, so I retract my earlier statement. I just couldn't remember until I played it.

I don't miss Bastila, but I don't miss the Handmaiden or Visas, either. They're just computer-generated characters in a game, and frankly that's how they felt to me. HK-47 was refreshing to have in KotOR II, but he didn't seem as funny to me as he did in the first one. Jolee's humor didn't impress me much, but neither did G0-T0's. Disciple seemed kind of dry to me, and Mira... she spoke pretty fast even in times when you'd expect dramatic pauses, sighs, etc. which made me lose interest in her real quick as she seemed so fake and unemotional most of the time. If I'll miss any of the characters in KotOR or KotOR II, it'll be Kreia. Fable and I both seem to adore her for being such a villain, and not the "classic" type. However, while I think Fable seems to believe she's the ultimate of badasses, I still feel Thrawn holds that honor.

Fable and I both seem to adore her for being such a villain.

It's not that she's a villain, for me, at least: it's that she presents such an unusually distinctive, and fresh, approach to character in a genre (computer gaming) that seems to be usually written by 10-year-olds for 10-year-olds. Kreia is knowledgeable; she understands much in the universe. She's wise; she knows personal motivation and what makes people think, and feel. She's even generous with this, can be genuinely kind, delighted in the progress of a student: qualities that perhaps reflect what she once was, rather than what she currently is. For Kreia sees everything from the vantage point of an ego that seeks to bend all else to its will. She is subtle, a great strategic thinker, a superb chess player who uses others as her pawns.

By contrast, the average computer game--or Star Wars fictional material--has all the depth of a comic book. You would expect an evil character to be evil because they enjoy taking over the world, and of course, they leave plenty of holes in their defenses to allow the boring good guys to get in and free everyone. It's very refreshing to find a Kreia as an opponent; or a Goto, yet another villain/hero who can go either way, but with an entirely personalized and fascinated character.

Again, it's not just the personality: it's the writing. It is beautiful, as an exposition of belief, an entry point into a separate world of self.

Are you just naturally deep or did you take a special martial arts class for the philosophically inclined? lol cuz that was some deep-ish stuff.

Frankly, I wasn't as convinced of her villain role, either. I was thinking about it earlier right after the last post on this thread I did, about what she said about Revan. How there was a subtle difference between a fall and a sacrifice, and that she believed Revan understood that. And then later she says there must always be a Darth Traya. I think she pretty much sacrificed herself in the same way she painted Revan as having done. So did she truly fall and become the villain once more? Or did she just take up the role because it was necessary?

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]I think she pretty much sacrificed herself in the same way she painted Revan as having done. So did she truly fall and become the villain once more? Or did she just take up the role because it was necessary?[/QUOTE]

I think the clue to her behavior lies in the way she openly despises emotion, regarding it as a weakness. I suspect that like many people who believe this, she sets up a wall between her mind and her own emotions; a dangerous buffer that keeps the her from recognizing her own emotional motivations. Because to do so, would mean that she had emotions...and Kreia knows she has risen above that.

So it is a fall for her, a matter of greed for power, anger, pride, above all, envy--none of which she acknowledges. Such, at least, is my reading.

[QUOTE=fable]I think the clue to her behavior lies in the way she openly despises emotion, regarding it as a weakness. I suspect that like many people who believe this, she sets up a wall between her mind and her own emotions; a dangerous buffer that keeps the her from recognizing her own emotional motivations. Because to do so, would mean that she had emotions...and Kreia knows she has risen above that.

So it is a fall for her, a matter of greed for power, anger, pride, above all, envy--none of which she acknowledges. Such, at least, is my reading.[/QUOTE]

This is pretty much a spoiler. And I think we've strayed off-topic just a tad.

But she expresses open emotions after you beat her. She says how precious you were and how she would have destroyed the entire galaxy just to preserve you. That's some emotional stuff for someone who you say has no emotions. And she didn't even do it for greed or power. She merely had Sion lure the Exile into the academy, test him/her, then the Exile faced Kreia, who considered this the final test for him/her. She fell out of necessity. She admits that she stayed there to point the way to Revan and what s/he was up to, so how much envy can you truly read from that?

Chimaera, re-read what I wrote: I don't say she lacks emotions, but that in her pride she refuses to acknowledge that she has any; and faced with death, the barrier of pride may fall. Also, I mentioned that her nurturing pleasure in the teacher-student relationship may be a last reflection of what she once was.

But as you state, this is venturing off-topic.

KOTOR I has an awesome storyline...it's NPCs are to die for even tho there's not as good of gameplay options
KOTOR II's storyline was good until they started cutting everything off of it which made it horrific...

I have to say tho that KOTOR II is a more enjoyable playing experience, but I'd rather see KOTOR I as a movie (PLEASE, MR. LUCAS, PLEASE!!!!)

one main point that made me like 2 better than 1 is the running. may seem foolish but all the characters in 1 run extremely awkwardly. and the robes are much better in 2.

Spam removed. Please, if you have new questions to asked or remarks not associated with this thread, start a new one.

I just simply love the first KOTOR. To me, KOTOR1 was perfect.
I just didnt like it when you had to do the stupid case for Sunry. That part of the game was a complete waste of time. I let the judges convict him guilty.

The first level in KOTOR2 got me sooo pissed off, i just stoped playn and never touched the game again. The feat menu was so dark that you couldnt see wut you highlighted, the map was confusing, your characters attacks look sooo stupid, and the story was just plain out annoying. They should've put more effort in the second one.To bad they rushed it.

There are some sparse character interactions in KotOR II; not many, and most of them occur on the Ebon Hawk, as I mentioned before. I was playing a new game and a friend was, too, and he cued me to a character interaction I'd never seen before: between Atton and Handmaiden on Nar Shaddaa when you give away your ship. It was rather humorous to watch.

Of the two, I actually prefer KoTOR I - I feel that, as a story, it is more developed and more complete. Like the original Star Wars, in fact.

However, coming from KoTOR II to the original, it is easy to see the massive improvements in gameplay that were deployed in the second one: prestige classes, more feats, better menus, lightsaber forms, force mastery types, etc... things that seem a bit odd until they're taken away (going from II to I) and then are completely conspicuous by their absence. All in all, the game felt less complete but more developed. As an exercise in creativity and progression, it is very impressive. But then, I think that is the difference between a game that is created specifically for the Xbox first off and one that is produced with numerous platforms in mind.

Highlight to read on...

KoTOR I, for me, had a clear-cut, cliche'd story that was diversified by the characters and what I felt to be their continual evolution: you can slowly drag out information from them until Griff is found, Bastila is snogged or Carth's son is found (I never finished Canderous', Juhani's or Jolee's... while the side quests are - in the grand scheme of things - very linear and quite simple, they provide the continual revelations that kept interaction interesting. In KoTOR II, as soon as each of the NPCs become Jedi or otherwise, they stop talking to you (on new topics, anyway); the only execption to this rule is Kreia (who has already been branded as a feat of creative genius and rightly so). Yes, the side quests in KoTOR I finish at some point but it takes quite a while to get around all of them... I had them all training as Jedi very early on in KoTOR II, so I felt a bit isolated when playing the final few levels - I know it sounds sad as it's "just a computer game," but hey.

Another key issue for me was how charismatic Revan appeared to be: his dialogue options had me rolling on the floor on many occasions, as did the other NPC interactions with each other - something that KoTOR II missed out on completely. The Exile is very, very dry by comparison - nothing remotely witty, comic or anything but what would be expected from the 'silent, stoic type:' "I was hoping for something a little more intimate," was the best he could do with Mira. I mean, really.

As you can tell, I got quite attached to Revan in the first one.

On the flip side, the premise for KoTOR had the potential to be as intense and dark as The Empire Strikes Back: brooding, philosophical and very introspective as a journey goes with Kreia stealing the show by a very large margin. It had to potential to take the gamer even deeper into the Star Wars universe regarding what drives it, motivates it and binds it together, as well as set us all up for an apocalyptical final (possibly) installation in KoTOR III. I finished the game and wasn't entirely sure what had happened: did I go after Revan? Was I picked up by the Ebon Hawk at the end and did we all live happily ever after? Yes, Kreia prophesised a bit but I never got the impression that there was a definitive climax to the game. Somebody's sig here potentially exemplfies this with some of Kreia's final dialogue.

All I can say is: roll on KoTOR III.