"Damsel in Distress"

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:44 am

[QUOTE=Xandax]Depends fully on the situation, but as a basis if the other person can handle themselves in the "conflict", then I don't see the need to interveen on their part and "handle it for them".
But, if I see somebody "I care about" in a situation they can't handle, then I'll try and help, but heck that goes for anybody from friends to familiy, and it not gender specific. I'd help a male friend as much as a female, I don't see women as "weaker" needing to be "protected".

But basically - I'd rather walk away from a possible "fight" or conflict because I find the idea of such primal actions to be a lack of intelligence from the people involved in the conflict. Of course, there are likely situations where it can't be avoided, but I've never placed nor found myself or anybody I cared about in such a situation.[/QUOTE]

I think you should feel very lucky you've never been put into a situation where you've had to fight your way out of it. Some situations, if you don't fight, your simply end up trampled and beaten until the person in front of you gets bored or tired. I've been there, and tried walking away, or being rational. It just isn't a viable solution sometimes.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:48 am

[QUOTE=Magrus]I think you should feel very lucky you've never been put into a situation where you've had to fight your way out of it. <snip> It just isn't a viable solution sometimes.[/QUOTE]
I (unfortunately) agree- sometimes force is the only option. That doesn't make it a good option, but sometimes fighting happens.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:08 am

[QUOTE=Magrus]I think you should feel very lucky you've never been put into a situation where you've had to fight your way out of it. Some situations, if you don't fight, your simply end up trampled and beaten until the person in front of you gets bored or tired. I've been there, and tried walking away, or being rational. It just isn't a viable solution sometimes.[/QUOTE]

There likely is situations where it isn't possible to "walk away", but many situations I've seen have simply been caused due to either "pride" or stupidity.
I've been involved in situations where fights were close to breaking out, but by keeping a cool head - I've gotten away from most any "risky" affair withouth anything happening.
The only fights I've ever been in was when I was very young (about 10 and 14) and being jumped by 3 people and 7 people respectively.
Besides this - I've been smart enough to avoid every situation in my now 28 year old life.

stormcloud · Post by **stormcloud** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:57 am

i do it because i was a boy scout and we were taught to protect the weak and people in need of help.

clearly if she doesnt need help, then i need not help.

conversely, if i was helpless, i would appreciate all the help she or anyone could render.

winter rose · Post by **winter rose** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:53 pm

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]Re: Winter Rose, DW-

I think that at some level almost all women want to be rescued/saved/protected (for lack of better words), and that all men want to do the saving/protecting/rescuing. I think this has more to do with gender than sex however, and I realize that both sexes have mixed feelings about this.[/QUOTE]

Hmm But dont you also think that at some level women also want a chance where they can protect the guy? And so that it can put them on equal footing so to speak? I dont mean that all we women should go of and get involved in physical fights- boy I wouldnt last long with those.

Imean lets say a guy gets insulted verbally - I would think it only right to help him out.

jopperm2--- But if your wife defended you from somebody - wouldnt you also be touched by the caring attitude?

giles337-----lol ok. Well Istarted off with more of the romantic kind of defending in this case- but generally speaking its great to see how or when people would step in to help their friends too.

Demortis--- Its not that I dont like being defended. What bugs be a lot is when the party doing the attacking thinks I cant fend for myself. Thats the only issue.Otherwise of course I love who ever comes to help me out and want to throw my arms around them.At the same time I want to make it clear to the attacker that I can take care of myself.

Obsidian--- It is sort of romantic. Depends on the situation of course.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:56 pm

Not really, I'd probably feel like a loser for being defended by a girl.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:00 pm

Cuchulain82 wrote:Just because an observation is similar to a stereotype doesn't make it less valid, does it?

Your observation is equally valid regardless if it is a stereotype or not, but I think that in this threat, as in the Valentine thread, you generalise too much depending on your own personal sociocultural context. In the Valentine's thread, you wrote

"IMO, every woman has a soft spot for romance. V-Day is so difficult because if you buy into the idea of "romance", you almost have to buy into the idea of V-Day. I believe that you haven't ever deliberately celebrated V-Day, but are you sure you haven't ever, not even once, done something a little special... and this just happen to occur near the middle of February?

and in this thread you wrote

I think that at some level almost all women want to be rescued/saved/protected (for lack of better words), and that all men want to do the saving/protecting/rescuing.

What you are saying is not that women you know or women and men you have observed behave in a certain way. What you are saying is that it is your opinion that almost all women behave a certain way.

Regarding Valentine's, I find it difficult to believe that a person who is not socioculturally handicapped (ie does not realise there are other cultures that his or her own) can hold the opinion that almost all women have a certain attitude towards Valentine's day. Most Europeans and Asians who are familiar with this tradition and may celebrate it some way, don't celebrate it as you do in the US.

Regarding almost all women want to be protected/saved and almost all men want to do the saving/rescuing, again you seem to apply typical

While I may again be selecting "more traditional women in my social sphere" , most of my experience with said women indicates that their reactions are very similar to DW's- conflicted. At some level they want to be rescued and taken care of by the proverbial prince charming, but at another level they resent any attempt by a man to protect them. I think men sometimes have similar internal conflicts between wanting to be chivalrous and not wanting to be a macho idiot. I don't think that these inclinations are set in stone, but I do think they exist in a broad sense.

I am sure these reaction patterns exist in your sociocultural sphere, and others too, but not in all sociocultural spheres and therefore you should not generalise them unless you have evidence they are generisable. Gender roles differ a lot across time and culture, as do relationship patterns.

I don't doubt your claim that most women you know hold values similar to what DW posted here. I don't know DW well and I certainly don't know the woman you know, but from what I have seen in DW's posts here at SYM over the years, she holds considerably more conservative and gender role stereotype values than any people I know IRL. Canada is different from the US, but much of Europe is very different from both Canada and the US. Gender roles differ more in a larger group of people in the US than in North Western Europe, for instance. In the US, you still even have housewives - a non existing concept in Scandinavia.

if the basis of the "protective instinct" is cultural, how can one explain the trans-cultural existence of this instinct?

What is your evidence that it is cross cultural? The idea of the man "protecting" the woman exists in several cultures. It also does not exist in several cultures. If it is genetic, why is it not stable over time and culture? Humankinds genome has not changed a bit for at least 20 000, possible 100 000, years.

Nasuke · Post by **Nasuke** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:00 pm

well, I know i'd protect my girlfriend, but it's weird, she knows karate VERY well........hmmm, i want her to beat me to pulp one day in bed.....

winter rose · Post by **winter rose** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:09 pm

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]
At some level they want to be rescued and taken care of by the proverbial prince charming, but at another level they resent any attempt by a man to protect them. I think men sometimes have similar internal conflicts between wanting to be chivalrous and not wanting to be a macho idiot. I don't think that these inclinations are set in stone, but I do think they exist in a broad sense.[/QUOTE]

Cuchulain I think you summed it up pretty well saying this. I suppose it all comes down to our comfort zones and the fact that there is a time and place for everything. My thread was not so much about gender roles but about feelings related to protecting or being protected. But anyhow this feedback has been very interesting.Thanks guys.

C Elegans and fable --- Personally I think it would be very offensive to think that a guy who likes protecting his better half is seen as a disappointment.I think that a protective nature only proves he cares a lot. I mean I know some guys who will not raise an eyebrow and let their other half fend for herself...even though at times she could use his help.While other guys jump in when she might have been doing just fine.I suppose that there has to be a boundary - doing enough vs. over doing it.But its such a fine line, that it is often messed up.

Its not so much gender stereotypes as the nature of the guy who is doing the protecting.Some guys have thick skin ,they dont mind if their other half is insulted, they will let it go and tell her to do the same.On the other hand if the guy is the type who makes sure his other half is protected from every teeny tiny insult- then yeah he will not take anything.No matter how small.

I have been attacked quite a few times - usually by other females. And yeah Fas has come to the rescue.I have told him off - but at the same time I have wanted to kiss him for it.Its quite touching.It just upset me that the other party thought I had asked him to step in.When in fact I had told him to keep away. I didnt even mind that then, what bothered me in his case was that he got insulted because of me.

There are so many issues with this whole protecting each other.I can handle anything.I can stand up for myself, if I get insulted -I do not like to insult back.I will instead take a different approach - point out how the person was wrong.I do not like to attack people personally.Its pathetic.However, when those I hold dear are attacked, it just makes my blood boil.Absolutely cant stand it.This is wherei wonder if I should step in and do what i wish to - or leave it up to the other person.

I think we need to understand when it is appropriate to step in. I dont think Im doing it because hes my significant other, and I dont think hes doing it because Im the woman.I think it shows how much people care about each other- and depending on when they step in - also shows how much they understand each other.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:16 pm

Basically what I have concluded of this thread is that most people enjoy being protected when they need it and some find it cute even when they don't.

Demortis · Post by **Demortis** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:18 pm

[QUOTE=stormcloud]i do it because i was a boy scout and we were taught to protect the weak and people in need of help.[/QUOTE]

Boy Scouts doesnt teach you this. it teachs to be helpful and curdious. never to protect. thats something that builds from being with the guys in your unit. brotherhood. and for lack of terminalogy COMMrodery (sp?)

@WR: thank you, i know what ya mean. i let people do their thing to get out of fights, im just there for a threat value. i may not be as tall as most, but im quick. (and irish)

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:25 pm

winter rose wrote:Personally I think it would be very offensive to think that a guy who likes protecting his better half is seen as a disappointment. I think that a protective nature only proves he cares a lot.

We all have individual response patterns and opinions. As I posted above, I am not interested in socialising with people who behave according to stereotypes, so a guy thow is acting protectively because he is a man and I (or another women) am a women is not interesting to me. A person who has a protective nature is like Xandax - he or she will simply protect people, not a specific gender.

I suppose that there has to be a boundary - doing enough vs. over doing it. But its such a fine line, that it is often messed up.

Maybe for you there is a fine line because you describe conflicting feelings. (You describe you have told Fas off, but at the same time you want to kiss him.) To me it is not a fine line and I have no conflicting feelings about it.

If it is about serious physical abuse, I think it is pretty obvious we should all step in - also for perfect strangers. If it is about verbal abuse, why not ask the other person if they want you to step in instead of spending time and energy on guesswork that may not even be correct?

winter rose · Post by **winter rose** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:35 pm

[QUOTE=Nasuke]well, I know i'd protect my girlfriend, but it's weird, she knows karate VERY well........hmmm, i want her to beat me to pulp one day in bed.....

[/QUOTE]

I took karate lessons too.

jopperm2 -- anytime you need help call on us females.You need to get over that embarrassment of having a woman defend you.

stormcloud -- good to hear.

Magrus-- You said:

Some situations, if you don't fight, your simply end up trampled and beaten until the person in front of you gets bored or tired. I've been there, and tried walking away, or being rational. It just isn't a viable solution sometimes.

I think thats very true at times. But at the same time like Xandax said a lot of times if we are level headed we can avoid the physical fights.

Looks again like we need to understand when we need to step in.

C Elegans --- Right.I guess you would then ask the guy - if he chooses to be protective and defends you - whether he is doing it because you're a woman or becaue he cant stand you being attacked? Interesting.

Yeah I am conflicted.I want him to defend me, but I want him to realize when its the right time to step in.On the other hand, due to some personal issues, and how they have affected me- I am the type of person who will never ask for help even if I need it.So in that case I suppose its good that hes around even when I tell him off.I guess it all comes down to understanding.

I understand that a person who is very protective will protect all people regardless of gender, but even that person will be more protective towards his/her significant other.At least thats how I am.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:04 pm

winter rose wrote:I guess you would then ask the guy - if he chooses to be protective and defends you - whether he is doing it because you're a woman or becaue he cant stand you being attacked? Interesting.

Yes. In general, maybe because I'm a shrink and because I hate unclear communication, I always ask people around why they are doing things, what they are thinking, how they value things, etc, etc.

Yeah I am conflicted.I want him to defend me, but I want him to realize when its the right time to step in. On the other hand, due to some personal issues, and how they have affected me- I am the type of person who will never ask for help even if I need it. So in that case I suppose its good that hes around even when I tell him off.I guess it all comes down to understanding.

If we expect other people to read our minds and "understand by themselves" what they should do and not do, then we must be prepared to be very disappointed. I understand if you don't ask for help. One of my best friends is the kind of guy who had an extremly abusive childhood and he will never ask a single person for help - not because he is proud, simply because he has no trust in anybody and he has such a disillusioned view of mankind so he is convinced there is no use asking anyone for help. On the other hand, if you do something to help him, just the tiniest little favor, he will be happy as a child at christmas. He doesn't expect anything.

However, my friend is not really in conflict, he is too cynical for that. You are still in conflict - so you must realise that if you don't ask, you don't give anyone a fair chance to try. Which also means, you cannot be sad, disappointed or angry if the other person does not do what you wished them to do, but didn't say.

As long as you realise you can't expect what you want from other people if you don't communicate this clearly, you should be fine and I hope that by time and positive experience, you will maybe learn to ask for help when you need it.

I understand that a person who is very protective will protect all people regardless of gender, but even that person will be more protective towards his/her significant other.At least thats how I am.

Most people simply care more about their SO, their children or their best friend than about a perfect stranger.

Magrus] think you should feel very lucky you've never been put into a situation where you've had to fight your way out of it. Some situations wrote:
It is very, very rarely a not viable solution. How often people get into fights is not coincidental. The factors that predispose for violence are, in order of impact:

1. Alcohol
2. other drugs
3. low educational level
4. social/socioeconomical problems
5. belonging to a minority group

The order of impact is for Scandinavia, but the same factors are important in the US too, and alcohol is the number 1 culprit in both Europe and the US.

There is a nice book about this topic called "Understanding and Preventing Violence" by Albert J. Reiss, Jr., and Jeffrey A. Roth, Editors; Panel on the Understanding and Control of Violent Behavior, National Research Council, National Academy Press.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:07 pm

post removed

For anybody who saw my post, just forget it, I really don't have the energy right now..

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:20 pm

It's fine DW, I hope you understood what I wanted to say in my reply to you. Hope you can relax and solve your RL troubles.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:24 pm

Okay CE, fair enough.

Anyway, see above, I edited my post because I'm tired and a bit upset over something in RL, so not the best time to get involved in a forum discussion, I should probably know better by now.

winter rose · Post by **winter rose** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:28 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Okay CE, fair enough.

Anyway, see above, I edited my post because I'm tired and a bit upset over something in RL, so not the best time to get involved in a forum discussion, I should probably know better by now.

[/QUOTE]

Aww its alright. We dont mind at all.Are you alright? *hugs*

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:38 pm

@ CE, yes, I understood once I read your post in a less agitated state of mind

Thanks CE and WR regarding the RL stuff. It was actually nothing overly serious.. just wrangling with my exceedingly stubborn and temperamental 10-yr-old... No idea *where* he gets those traits from !

Anyway, I don't mean to derail the conversation further, I'll try to actually add more to the topic at hand a bit later, my turn to make dinner tonight

frogus23 · Post by **frogus23** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:09 pm

What does a girl need to be protected from?

Swearing?
I receive great ammounts of verbal abuse around the place, wherever I go. I deal with it...my girlfriend, being a more 'normal looking' person, doesn't have the same problem. Should she fight everyone that calls me a ***got on the street? It is enough to hold my hand as we walk.
Should I fight everyone that swears at her? To you it may sound heartless, but I not only expect her to be able to cope with it, I think it is much more morally improving for her to tolerate than to expect that revenge be taken for every trespass against her.

Violence?
One of my ex girlfriends was beaten up at school once. It was traumatic, and I felt that the damage inflicted to her (physical injuries being transient and relatively insignificant) would be mended by something like affection and reassurance, so this is what I tried to give to her. I did not think that me attacking the girls who had atacked her would have repaired her scars, not one bit.

I do not think that violence, argument or abuse is a good thing. I do not think that revenge creates any kind of justice. If I am attacked (in some way), I never wish for my attacker to be attacked back, and any satisfaction would be cancelled out by knowing that I have doubled the ammount of hurt in the situation.

What I actually think:

If 'defending' means doing what I can to prevent her from getting hurt, then I am defensive. But I am defensive towards all (or try to be) and the fact that she is female is irrelevent as could be.

If 'defending' means smething like what Magrus is describing (taking physical revenge on those who have crossed your female), then I think this is barbaric, and a bad idea. Once again it is irrelevnt that it is a female involved, nobody is worth revenging.