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Here's my build for the 6 player ultimate power party (you don't really need all 6, 4 would be plenty and allow you to level faster, but anyway) and why, follow this and you'll cream the opposition, even on Insane Normal mode or HoF (based on attaining your 30 level max), also go for Good aligned characters so your Holy Word spells don't stun your own party:

1. Asamiir or Female Drow Paladin of Illmater.

Primarily a tank in normal mode but starts taking Cleric levels after about level 15 to eventually become 15/15. This gives him all the best cleric buffs and disablers (Holy Power, Recitation, Bull's Strenth, Iron Skins, Champions Strength, Hold Person, Hold Undead, Greater Command, Holy Word, Heal and Symbol of Hoplessness) with compromising his combat ability. Don't worry about not getting Weapon Specialisation, the Holy Power spell and the Fiend Slayer feat more than make up for it. Take GSF: Enchantment to boost those Greater Commands and Symbols. If possible give this guy 15 Dex so he can dual wield attacking with 2 Holy Avengers in HoF just can't be beat.

2. Human Fighter5/Rogue5/Barbarian20.

This guy is your beatstick with tricks. The 20 Barb. Levels give you the following: Tireless Greater Rage (+6 str and Con, will save bonus and -2 AC penalty), huge HP, uncanny dodge and damage resistance of 4 against all physical damage (this stacks with DR items like Band of Focus/Mastery!). Fighter levels give you extra feats for Weapons Spec. and Max. attacks. Rogue levels give evasion, and a 3D6 sneak attack at an opponents back. you can actually make great use of this by having this guy be your 2nd attacker. Specialise in Axes (this gives you bonuses using Greataxes, one handed Battleaxes and throwing axes). Also being Human you can drop his Int right down and he'll still get 2 skill points each level up, enough for that Concertation skill you need for Max. Attacks! Got to go for 2 handed weapons on this guy.

3. Human Bard17/Fighter6/Rogue7

Bards rock. This guy's main role will be a booster/disabler/buffer/sniper and your main Rogue. Once you start adding Rogue and Fighter levels thogh he becomes a real combat force. While your 2 main tanks are slugging it out, this guy drops Improved Haste on the party then runs around behind the lines and starts dishing out 4D6 sneak attacks. When he and your Barb. double team the same opponent, one of them will always be able to get in a sneak attack! In a face to face fight, he throws on Mirror Images, Blur and Blink and goes to town. Oh yeah, have this guy Dual Weild and take Weapon Spec. Shortblades, as you will always be using one in your off hand.

4. Human or Female Drow Cleric of Oghma.

Take at least 20 Cleric levels and max out Wisdom. You can also add in some Druid levels for extra offensive punch, or Fighter and Barb for more combat ability and feats. This guys main role will be to heal the party and disable enemies. Later on once he gets to higher levels (14 or so) he will become a force to be reckoned with. One Greater Command or Symbol should disable most opponents, and once you get 9th level Domain Spells, Wail of the Banshee will effectively end most fights by itself. There is little or nothing that this guy can't do. He's not designed to be a front line fighter, and should be played much like an arcane spell caster.

5. Human, Wild Elf or Asamiir Sorceror.

If you go Asam for the Cha. bonus, then stay a pure Sorc. If you go Human, you can add what ever other classes you like. Rogue is good for evasion (against enemy fireballs and the like), as is Monk of the Dark Moon for all the extra tricks you get and the innate AC bonus. In any case, you will want to take at least 20 Levels of Sorc. Must take spells include:Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Mirror Image, Eagles Splendor, Fireball (great at lower levels and for killing trolls), Shield, Mordenkainens Sword, Malison, Finger of Death, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Symbol: Hoplessness and Wail of the Banshee. There are plenty of other good choices. Needless to say, this guy is your Artillery.

6. Human, Tiefling or male Drow Wizard (no spec.)

Basically the same as the Sorc. Primarily this guy is here to allow you access to spells that your Bard and Sorc. don't take. I'd go with no specialty so that he can learn the Symbol spells. If you take any specialist, this key spell is barred to you. Given about 20 Wizard levels he will have plenty of castings anyway and the extra 1 per level wont matter too much. As with the Sorc. You can either go pure or add some other levels to your taste. 10 Levels of Rogue might be nice so you can get Improved Evasion and truck loads of Skill Points from all that INT. If you plan on giving this guy Rogue levels, take 1 pretty early so that you can dump all those Skill Points into rogue skills while you take your Wizard levels. You can be a bit more relaxed with your Bard character (allocate less points to Int. and more to Con or Str etc.) if you take Rogue levels with the Wiz as he can then become your main Rogue.

There's basically nothing that can stand up to this party, HoF or not. Once this party has reached higher levels, you can do the following at the start of a fight:

Have one of your wizard or Sorc. Cast Malison, while the other starts casting Wail or waits for a bit (lobbing a missile weapon) then starts up a Symbol hoplessness, Bard casts Emotion: Despair, Cleric casts Recitation while the Paladin and Barb meets the oncoming foe and keep them busy. If timed well, by the time the Wail or Symbol goes off, the opponents will have their saves dropped by 6 and be more or less wiped out by the end of the first round.

If this doesn't work, have the Paladin and Cleric cast Greater Command, while the Wiz and Soc. cast Symbol: Hoplessness. Nothing is going to save 4 times against this even in HoF. Against Golems and the like, the Pal. throws on Divine Shell while the Cleric gives him a Greater Shield of Lathander then meets them head on while the Bard puts on Mirror Images and joins in. In Hof, just buy the Kegsplitter in chapter 1 and golems will never trouble you again.

This party is Magic heavy, which is what you need in HoF, but also packs plenty of Melee punch. Let your Melee characters develop their combat skills in normal mode then start bringing in their off classes. The Wiz., Sorc. and Cleric should be essentially pure in normal mode so they are ready for HoF.

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...did you beat HOF with this party without problems?!

...I must say I'm quite surprised as your party lacks of many for HOF essential requirements:


in general: I miss a good melee protection, all of your melee builds can't reach an effective AC nor do they have the most important arcane self-buffs like MI, blur & blink!

how many losses did you have in HOF?

no critics, but from my point of view you have wasted to many levels for an "ultimate power party"


some examples:


1. Asamiir or Female Drow Paladin of Illmater:

I really don't see a reason for 15 Pal levels! More cleric levels and a few monk levels and / or fighter levels would be more effective!

Especially as the pal levels are more or less redundant to the cleric levels!



2. Human Fighter5/Rogue5/Barbarian20:

a build with no caster levels shouldn't be real effective in HOF - ok he has tons of HP but can't reach any useful AC, can't use the bands for more DR (as they should be monk only AFAIR) and against the tougher ones of the HOF enemies you will need to cast heal or ressurect spells on him every 2nd round!

Even worse this guy has no SR (and no chance to get an effective one) and has worse will saves!



3. Human Bard17/Fighter6/Rogue7

ok - this one has a better potection but 3 rogue and 4 fighter levels would allow you 6 additional levels for barb 3 and ranger 3 or bard 20 - would be more "ultimate" this way



4. Human or Female Drow Cleric of Oghma:

20 cleric levels are never wrong - how "ultimate" this build will be depends on the other levels!



5. Human, Wild Elf or Asamiir Sorceror:

as the aasimar pal 2 / sorc X is plainly *the* ultimate build...



6. Human, Tiefling or male Drow Wizard (no spec.):

same as the cleric - 20 wiz levels are never wrong especially not with a drow - but it depends on the other evels how good this build really is!



...would be interested in how good this party really works in HOF and which tactics you used!


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You make some good points, but let me point out a few things:

I have tried to steer away from splashing a few squated Monk and Paladins levels. I don't like doing this because it feels wrong to me. These classes are supposed to be used in conjuction with one other, hence their orders - not part of a multi class build (Case in point Paladin/Sorc, considering you can be a pal/wizard, but not Pal/Sorc it seems pretty obvious that these classes were not intended to be able to be played together, while a Monk of the Dark Moon can be a Monk/Sorc. just fine). While strictly speaking these might add power to a character, they feel like cheating to me, a bit like getting HoF items in normal mode. This is a personal thing, others may not agree but I prefer using multiclass builds that have no restrictions.

A note on the party:

1. Asamiir or Female Drow Paladin of Illmater:

I really don't see a reason for 15 Pal levels! More cleric levels and a few monk levels and / or fighter levels would be more effective!

Especially as the pal levels are more or less redundant to the cleric levels!

I look at this in reverse, how many Cleric levels does he need? What real advantage is there in taking more than 15? He is not the party's main cleric, 15 levels gives him everything he needs in the way of spells. Remember that this guy is primarily a tank. His Cleric levels come later. More Pal. levels give him more Hp, better BaB and a stronger Smite Evil while still being able to Holy Word and Heal himself.

2. Human Fighter5/Rogue5/Barbarian20:

a build with no caster levels shouldn't be real effective in HOF - ok he has tons of HP but can't reach any useful AC, can't use the bands for more DR (as they should be monk only AFAIR) and against the tougher ones of the HOF enemies you will need to cast heal or ressurect spells on him every 2nd round!

Even worse this guy has no SR (and no chance to get an effective one) and has worse will saves!

As you ahve pointed out previously, AC is essentially an all or nothing in HoF. In HoF he's going to get hit all the time, this is where DR comes in handy, Barb's are the only class with built in damage resistance that stacks, and yes he can use Bands of Mastery, they are universal. His High Hp will keep him alive for a while, even against slayer knights. He's also the perfect carrier for a Greater Shield of Lathander from the Cleric. He can also Greater Rage at will for +90 HP (at 30th level) if he's taking a beating, which should give you the few moments necessary to Heal Him. Particularly if he's in the front line with the Pal. From my expericence Mirror Images are great as long as you have about 10 caster levels, with 5 or so levels you normally get about 3-5 images, which disappear in a matter of seconds. You also need to combine this with the ability to recast MI multiple times, and/or aviod getting hit (either with Blink, Blur etc. or Huge AC).

Also, sure no SR, but does have Evasion against area damage spells, and Rogue levels boost his reflex save.

3. Human Bard17/Fighter6/Rogue7

ok - this one has a better potection but 3 rogue and 4 fighter levels would allow you 6 additional levels for barb 3 and ranger 3 or bard 20 - would be more "ultimate" this way

20 Bard levels is pretty pointless IMHO. You still only have 6th level spells (even if you had 7th they suck), though you would get more castings. Fighter6/Rogue7 gives you more feats than other builds (except perhaps for Ranger levels for the Dual weild feats) and a great sneak attack. Don't underestimate sneak attack. This is how he will do most of his damage, as he will almost never be the first into a fight, he will usually be flanking his opponent. The extra Rogue levels mean his first hit at each opponent does and extra 4-24 damage, basically turning a normal attack into a critical hit. His fighter levels give him enough feats to take 2 weapon fighting, weapon spec. and max. attacks ontop of his magic related feats. Considering he can cast Invisibilty so that he gets to sneak attack again once he attracts attention, all those extra 4-24's add up!

5. Human, Wild Elf or Asamiir Sorceror:

as the aasimar pal 2 / sorc X is plainly *the* ultimate build...

Don't like doing this for the reasons above. These classes were not intended to be played together, so I don't. In any case, Monk levels give you improved evasion so you will take either 50% or no damage against area damage spells (instead of a definite 50% with high saves) and a bunch of other nice feats including a will save bonus (already high from being a Sorc. and boosted by being a Monk also, even with 10 Wis and no boosting feats this would mean a will save bonus of +21) against mind affecting spells.

Yes, I've played a party like this through HoF. Basically nothing survives 4 simultaneous castings of Symbol: Hoplessness at a time, particularly if they've been Emotion: Despair'd by the Bard first. If something does, by some miracle save 4 times, Holy Word stuns it for a round with no save and no SR while the Pal, Barb and Bard all take a round of free shots at it (with the Barb and Bard getting their Sneak attacks!).

It's also a very robust normal mode party. Constructs are a bit of a pain as they are immune to Symbol and Greater Command, but since Hof gives you the Kegsplitter it's no biggie.

What difficulty did you play on in Normal Mode? Your party looks pretty tough, and you didn't die very often I have to say. To be honest there are many ways to build a powerful party. In General, any party with at least one Cleric and either a Wizard or Sorc able to cast level 9 spells with the right stats, a utility character and a tank will probably do fine.

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...not using pals and monks as mix-ins is a personal decision - for me there is nothing wrong with it, as it is possible - and btw. we are talking about "ultimate" parties and not role-playing!


No problem with 15 cleric levels - quite a good number as long as you have another main divine caster - just wouldn't go for 15 pal levels!
...btw. there are clerics, pals & monks of ilmater - would be a nice combination that wouldn't violate your house-rules!


You are right with the bands they are not monk-only (seems to be time to play a little bit IWD2 again ) but they only give resistance up to +3 weapons - so it won't help much against the real bad guys!

Concerning MI: you should get 3 to 7 images randomly - but I had also the impression that you have a better chance to get 5 to 7 images when you are on a higher level - but I have seen my level 20 wiz getting only 3 images and my 5 wiz level spellsword getting all 7 so I'm not 100% sure if there is any correlation!

Sneak attacks: extra 1D6 or 2D6 damage is certainly not that bad - but 3 barb levels would be a good addition for this build - cause increased MR is great for a sneak attacks!

As constructs are some of the toughest enemies in IWD2 - using the kegsplitter to slay them seems just to be wrong from my point of view (don't say that it's cheating as the kegsplitter is available - but it's close to cheating )


Played the game on insane difficulty and always reloaded when a PC died in battle (my house-rules) - the main problem was the undead targos mod in normal game as almost every party is far away from ultimate on there first levels - and if you have bad luck each level 1 PC could get killed by every skeleton bowman with one shot in targos docks!

same problem if your PC sneaks to 2nd one caballus/sullabac and both SR *and* reflex save don't work and your MI is already gone from the 1st of both - bad luck and your PC is just dead!


btw. in HOF the undead targos mod was just a cakewalk - as HOF just gets pretty fast quite boring with my party!

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