Should rap be considered music? Yes, or no and why??

[Erenor]

[QUOTE=Athena]I'll rephrase that for you; Does a bear crap in the woods?
That's an offensive question, concidering I may or may not have African American heritage because I'm Italian and I happen to also have an eclectic group of friends.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to very much point out that it is not an offensive question. There was the beginnings of an off topic discussion in another thread, so I decided to start a new thread to hear different perspectives on the matter. I remained as neutral as the question, and a certain ethnicity has nothing to do with the question itself. I'll repeat the question. This isn't whether or not you like rap. This isn't who started rapping in the first place. The question is whether or not rap falls under the categoy of music as opposed to a form of poetry or public speaking instead. There was no insult involved unless you twist things rather harshly. Let's try to keep on topic instead of giving opinions on why rap is great or "crap".

[Bloodstalker]

Just a simple question, but what do lyrics have to do with anything? Last time I checked, there was a wide selection of music out there that doesn't even have lyrics of any kind. It's still considered music regardless of the presence of lyrics.

On top of that, most lyrics I've heard tends to fall into the same rut as what rap music has been accused of. A few bands break the ground, offer something at least slightly new and interesting, and hordes of bands follow immediatly and simply parrot what has gone before. IMO, whether it's rap, metal, country, pop, rock, or what have you, about 90% of lyrical content at any time is either rehashing old themes or just outright inane if you take the time to examine it.

As to rap, I think it is at the stage where it's become a bit of a bloated parody of itself, just like every style of music devolves into at some point. At it's best, rap is filled with real social commentary that serves to bring certain aspects of society to the general consciece, at it's worst, it's simply a collection of sampled music with the words "Uh" and "yeah" thrown in while expounding the virtues of making money and the alter of the booty.

Kinda like metal degenerated into hundreds of songs expounding the joys of Satan, wild nights, and the alter of, well, the booty.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Erenor]The question is whether or not rap falls under the categoy of music as opposed to a form of poetry or public speaking instead.[/QUOTE]

Why couldn't it fall under the categories of both music and poetry--or perhaps, music and lyrics?

[Magrus]

"booty" and "alter" shouldn't go together, however I do have a story of a good friend of mine mixing the two on her father's alter (He's a bishop). Apparently, that's considered marriage in a certain culture.

What does this have to do with rap? Nothing, just inserting random humorous story to diffuse tension. SPAM!

[C Elegans]

I don't understand this. How do you mean your heritage (or do you mean anyones heritage?) is (or is not) related to the question whether rap can be defined as music or not?

The question is whether or not rap falls under the categoy of music as opposed to a form of poetry or public speaking instead.

This seems like an arbitrary distiction to me. Would you consider Gregorian chant, Mozart's requiem, opera, choir music or Tibetan singing as "not music" and instead poetry or public speaking because the human voice is central (and in some cases even the only way) to creating these types of music?

[Darth Zenemij]

This seems like an arbitrary distiction to me. Would you consider Gregorian chant, Mozart's requiem, opera, choir music or Tibetan singing as "not music" and instead poetry or public speaking because the human voice is central (and in some cases even the only way) to creating these types of music?

I view those as peotr and music. They are almost the same thing. Both are ways of expressing your self in a way.

[Chanak]

Of course rap is music. It meets the basic criteria of a music form - one's tastes in musical expression is not considered in such criteria. You may not *like* a particular expression, but this in itself does not suddenly make what you don't like "not music."

Whenever I have heard rap or hip-hop denounced as non-music, it almost always stems from someone's dislike of the sub-culture it springs from. I can understand not liking the subculture and/or the expressions used by some rap/hip-hop artists and what is often common to the genre. That, however, is social/musical criticism, which is entirely different and has no bearing on the rap style of musical expression.

[Athena]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]This seems like an arbitrary distiction to me. Would you consider Gregorian chant, Mozart's requiem, opera, choir music or Tibetan singing as "not music" and instead poetry or public speaking because the human voice is central (and in some cases even the only way) to creating these types of music?[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting that, it goes along with my point.
I was trying to point out that it is stupid to challange rap's musical values.

[Denethorn]

No. I don't like it, a Majority of it has absolutly no point. They come up with the most Ridiculous things and names. I just think that rap should die forever. Even though people need a way to express them selves, they should do so in a manner that at least makes sence.

Same can easily be said about whatever musical preference you have. To those that don't understand it or appreciate it, it can seem pointless bland and just a pain on the ears.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you like rock/metal Well to the uneducated it can seem that metal is mindless screeching, and as for rock nowerdays well we have these pop rock pretty boys blaring through radio waves that have absolutely no talent or musical meaning behind them.

The point is to dig deeper. I used to hate rap with a passion - seeing it as the mindless pointless big-me-up music rubbish that you see it is; arses simply rapping about their hos, bling and rides .

Well if you listen to the radio you'll think that - many agree that the big rap stars nowerdays (50Cent being the biggest culprit) produce such rubbish, and that he has over-produced, chart topping raps about nothing.

Now... on the other end of the spectrum: listen to some Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five some of the old rap (much like rock) has alot more spirit and meaning too it. Read the lyrics of Beat Street by Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five and you will know true rap don't pay any attention to the garbage that is 50Cent's Candy Shop (in my opinion ofcourse):

The president just forgot about Earth
Spending multi billions, and maybe even trillions
The cost of weapons ran into zillions
There’s gold in the street, and diamonds under feet
And the children in Africa don’t even eat
Flies on their faces, they’re living like mice
And the houses even make the ghetto look nice, Huh!
The water tastes funny, it’s forever too sunny
And they work all month and don’t make no money
A fight for power, a nuclear shower
And people shout out in the darkest hour
Of sights unseen and voices unheard
And finally the bomb gets the last word

It doesn't read as well obviously but the rapper really does seem to preach about stuff the audience actually cared, knew, or had concerns about - about reality.

Like you ignore the latest emo punk bad that has teenage girls everywhere drooling, so do you ignore the latest rap tune in the charts just an example

[Athena]

[QUOTE=Chanak]Of course rap is music. It meets the basic criteria of a music form - one's tastes in musical expression is not considered in such criteria. You may not *like* a particular expression, but this in itself does not suddenly make what you don't like "not music."

Whenever I have heard rap or hip-hop denounced as non-music, it almost always stems from someone's dislike of the sub-culture it springs from. I can understand not liking the subculture and/or the expressions used by some rap/hip-hop artists and what is often common to the genre. That, however, is social/musical criticism, which is entirely different and has no bearing on the rap style of musical expression.[/QUOTE]
Amen
I'm so glad we are on the same page now.

[Magrus]

Well if you listen to the radio

There's the problem....the crap on the radio is processed stuff to be put out by record companies. Avoid the radio. There really is some good music out there, you won't find most of it on the radio. Doesn't matter the genre, avoid the radio.

[Athena]

(EDITED)
My thoughts exactally.

[Magrus]

Pasting what I send to in private now are we miss? Does that mean I can do the same?

[Athena]

I don't care.

[Magrus]

Can we go back to the whole happy girl that called me this morning with good news thing? That was far better you know.

[Athena]

maybe if people stopped trying to challenge rap's musical values...
It doesn't seem like anyone wants to anymore.

[fable]

I don't think you necessarily mean "rap's musical values," but its ability to be considered music. It is music: objectively, it meets all the criteria. But "musical values" is a phrase used in various musical circles to discuss the quality of the music.

So while rap is definitely music, its value as music is a subjective matter.

[The Z]

@Chanak, Fable...you guys are absolutely right. I don't want to reiterate what you said so I'll just go off on a random tangent here

Music, as we all know, is often a way to express how one feels in an environment. It's a way to broadcast these feelings to other people who may or may not know where the artist is coming from.

Eminem, for example, despite the aggression and profanity, has shown the public where he's come from, why it was such an awful situation, and how his emotions reacted to it. It's brutally honest at times, which is something artists in other genres lose sight of.

Tupac definitely held a lot of thought and anguish behind his lyrics. While they're simple, the public has to remember, this guy was a 'Blood' - he didn't exactly finish high school, he was part of a gang. One thing he did was bring light to the horrible conditions from where he came from and gave his point of view on the matter. His song, Changes definitely has musical value and instead of describing it, you can take a look for yourself (WARNING, LYRICS CONTAIN A FEW EXPLETIVES).

I'm not denying the fact that there are plenty of rappers/hip-hoppers who don't have much musical value. But every genre has 'posers' and you can't help that.

[Maharlika]

Rap IS music.

No doubt, Rap IS a form of Music. Not much of a fan, but if taken objectively, Rap is definitely considered music.

The question I ask myself is: should it be considered as singing?

[ik911]

[QUOTE=Maharlika]The question I ask myself is: should it be considered as singing?
[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. Does a painter always use charcoal? I think it can be called rapping, rhyming, spitting, but singing?
[QUOTE=dictionary.com][size=-2]sing

v. intr.
1. Music.
a. To utter a series of words or sounds in musical tones.
b. To vocalize songs or selections.
c. To perform songs or selections as a trained or professional singer.
d. To produce sounds when played: made the violin sing.
2.
a. To make melodious sounds: birds singing outside the window.
b. To give or have the effect of melody; lilt.
3. To make a high whining, humming, or whistling sound.
4. To be filled with a buzzing or ringing sound.
5.
a. To proclaim or extol something in verse.
b. To write poetry.
6. Slang. To give information or evidence against someone.
[/size][/QUOTE]

Apparently, yes. It can be called singing, when rap is vocals on melody.