Creating a new race

[Demortis]

so make it a CR 12?

[Aegis]

[QUOTE=Demortis]so make it a CR 12?[/QUOTE]
Ignore the CR. That's seperate from the LA.

The basis behind CR is that 4 PC's of that level would be able to handle such a creature, with moderate difficulty.

The Level Adjustment is in place to ensure PC's can't become too powerful, too quick by being this race.

[Demortis]

but what would be a good LA? i was originally thinking either +4 or +6.

[thekyngdoms]

[QUOTE=Demortis]but what would be a good LA? i was originally thinking either +4 or +6.[/QUOTE]

In order to balance out the LA, you need to get an understanding of exactly what it is, as Aegis highlighted in his post.

What is LA?

LA is specifically set for those monsters that can be played as player races (if the DM allows it) so that a balance can be created. After all, a player playing a 1st level barabarian half-orc is not the same as a player playing a 1st level barbarian ogre. The ogre is just way above that. To calculate this, we add the LA to the HD and that tells us what level that monster character is equivalent to. In the case of the ogre, it has a +2 LA and 4 HD, which gives us an ECL (estimated character level) of 6. That is, someone playing a straight ogre, with no class levels, is equivalent to plyaing a normal 6th level character.

Why?

Well, an ogre character is Large and gain 10 ft reach, get +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha and +5 Natural Armor. And for that, he's considered LA +2.

Let's compare that to the Cybreons, who can fly, get +8 Natural Armor, plus a special ability called astral armor (I still don't know what that does, but it sounds pretty pokey), light fortification, DR 10/adamantine, the ability to change shape, +10 str, -4 wis, -6 cha, plus a couple of other bits.

So which is better? To me, the Cybreons come out way ahead. So since an ogre is LA +2, we're talking much more than that.

Looking around at a couple of other examples shows that elder Stone Giants (LA +6) get +11 Natural Armor, +16 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Wis, Large size, 10 ft reach, rock throwing, stone shape, stone tell and either transmute rock to mud or transmute mude to rock 1/day, plus a couple of other bits.

This is much more in line with the Cybreons, but still not, IMO, as good.

A Vrock has a +8 LA and for that get a whole bunch of stuff (too much to write here. Go check it out in the MM). IMO, this is probably more along the lines of the Cybreon.

So, IMO, I'd make the Cybreon an LA +8. The problem with this (or even a +6), is that this gives you an ECL of over 20, which isn't allowable - or, at least, you won't find any other examples of this. Basically, anything that gives you an ECL of 21+ can't be played and thus gets LA: -. To make this a playable monster race, you'd need to cut back on some of it's special abilities.

Of course, none of this is exactly science, so others will disagree. The best advice I can give (after all this) is just to go and look at the creatures in the MM and compare their special abilities and LA to the Cybreons. Bottom line: it's your campaign, so go with what you're happy with.

[Magrus]

I agree with the LA 8 there looking back on the stuff up there. My suggestion? Toss aside the 15 HD there. You're warforged have a starting HD of 1, just like every else at 1st level. These guys starting with 1 HD would end up as 9th level characters though, and a 9th level wizard could lay waste to a squad of these things with one spell. That doesn't work too well. If you toss on 5 HD, you'd have a 13th level character. That might work, however, you'd have low hit points still.

Another thing, I've got no clue how you got those stats on the example monster. I'd try something like this...

Cybreons
Medium Construct (Living Construct)
Hit Dice: 5d8
Initiative:+3
Speed: 40ft. (8 square)/fly 40ft."humanoid mode" 90ft. "bird mode"*
Armor Class:21 (+8 natural armor**), touch:13, flat footed 18
Base attack:Grapple:3/14
Attack: +9 short sword (1d6+4/19-20x2) / slam (1d6 +6/20x2) / +5 Repeating Crossbow (1d8/19-20x2)
Full Attack: short sword, Slam Attack
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attack: -
Special Qualities: Blindsight***, Living Construt Traits, Light Fortification, Astral Armor (+8 Natural Armor), change shape, DR 3/Adamantite
Saves: Fort +6(4+2), Ref +1, Will +0 (1-3)
Ablities: Str 18(+4), Dex 10, Con 14(+2), Int 10, Wis 6(-2), Cha 4(-3)
Skills: Bluff +2 (5-3), Listen +5 (5-2+2), Sense Motive +3 (5-2), Spot +5 (5-2+2),
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Power Attack,
Enviroment: Any
Orginaization: Solitary, Pair, Flight (4-8)
CR: 5 (?)
Treasure: none
Alignments: Usually neutral good
LA: -

*designed to get into combat fast, transforms(think F-15 Eagle)
**astral armor, made by alien race
***Blindsight must be activated and last untill turned off.


Cybreons as chars:
+6 str, +4 Con, -4 wis, -6 cha.
Base land speed is 40.
Special Quailites: see above.
Racial Skills (for racial HD-5x4 (+ Int Mod)=20): Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot
Automatic languages: Cybreon. Bonus Languages: Common
Favored Class: Fighter
Level Adjustment: 6

Thoughts?

[Rob-hin]

The CR is much lower.
Think of it this way, 4 characters doing damage to this beast, how many rounds will it stand? 5d8+10=34hp. One or two rounds and he's down.
He does have a nice high AC, so he should hold his own to lower level characters.

Naturally this is simplified, but I hold it as a guide line and it holds up 9 times out of 10.

He does average of 16 damage with a full round attack, 2 hits.

I'd give him a CR of 4.

[Demortis]

actualy, i had thought of toning it down some, it was orginally more powerful then i needed. this actually looks more like what i wanted, thanks guys.

[qoute] I've got no clue how you got those stats on the example monster. [/qoute]

i was usin the MM's "making a creature" as an example.

[Magrus]

Really? I think they use a template and anything above, or below 10-11 requires a modifier for characters. With the stats you had listed, there would be a lot of modifiers. I think they would have been +18 Str, +6 Dex, +14 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, and -4 Cha, but that's just from memory of making my own a while ago. I could be wrong with how the rules work.

[Demortis]

i was usin the 3.5 book, didnt say anything about a template in tehre, would have helped

[Magrus]

*nods* It's hard making you're own sometimes. 2nd Edition had an interesting way of race and class creation in the DMG.

ECL for this race would be 11 if we went by what I changed it to for you. That'd be level 12 for one of these with 1 level in any class basically.

[Demortis]

ok thanks guys

[Magrus]

Figured I'd use this thread too...

Ok, I'm looking for a race for a campaign that will work at CR 6, with at least 2 class levels after the initial race setup. I want it to be something with high ability modifiers, and some added feats as a part of it's "special features". I'd like it to be a large, bipedal creature, with both a claw and bite attack. Nothing clumsy, or stupid, yet not brilliant or incredibly dextrous. Almost like a ogre mixed with a feline, or canine, with a focus on hunting and guerrilla warfare.

Something along the lines of:

[INDENT]Large Humanoid
3d8 HD
Ability Adjustments: Str +10, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -, Wis +2, Cha -2
Fur- +2 Nat. Armor
Claw- 1d8 (2-Primary Attack)
Bite- 1d6 (Secondary Attack)
Speed- 40
DR- 3/ X*
Improved Grapple, Multi-attack, and Rake as bonus feats for the race. (Not counting standard racial HD progression feats)
Improved Initiative, Power Attack[/INDENT]

*(Not sure what it should have as a weakness yet for my campaign, I'll figure this out later when I finish working things out.)

I'm still working out exactly how to flesh this out, but thoughts on where to go with the rest of the little details, suggested LA, and if things need to be motivated would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Demortis]

well, with guerrilla warfareyou want something small but at the same time you also want something that deals crippleing damage, is there any sort of terriane(sp?) that its at home in? if so give it racial +'s to hide, might even go as far as skill focus(hide)

[Magrus]

*nods* I know of the setting for the place, and the way it will be, hiding is easy even for large creatures, and tracking is hard. That's no problem, but the hide thing is a good idea I hadn't thought of.

The damage thing, I wanted the improved grab, multi-attack and rake feats for that. With, or without sneaking up on someone, that can do brutal damage if the attacks hit and with a successful grab. With the attack, we can say an average of 9 or so per hit with a claw, 5 with a bite, and with that rake, thats +2 more claw attacks. If every attack hits, we've got an average of 39 per round with 2 claws, bite, grab and rake. This ensures that they can pose a threat to larger, more powerful creatures in the area, and defend itself from adventurers or creatures going after it in addition to catching prey.

The fact that I don't plan on having hordes of them crawling all over the place is also something to keep in mind. They aren't going to be meant for group activities at all. More on the end of one, possibly as many as three seen at a time.

[Demortis]

pack tactics? interesting, i wasnt thinking of that. i could think of something and get back to you tomorrow

[Magrus]

I wouldn't say pack tactics, more the opposite. They'll be built to hunt on their own, or with small groups when pulling down larger, more powerful creatures. With the setting, it's lush jungle with ruins of a giant civilization all over the place. It's full of large, brutal creatures and these would be on the end of the intelligent, yet savage predators that have resulted from thousands of years of isolation there.

[Demortis]

since it is a jungle, i would also give it ranks and racials to in climb. i would more then likely give it more like +4 to wis. you could balance that out with a -4 cha, i doubt that they're gonna be charismatic

[Magrus]

The bonus to climb is good, however I don't want them to be extremely wise, or be horrible socially. I want to keep the stats as is I think, if I need to rearrange other stuff thats fine but I'll be keeping those of all things I do believe. I'm going for an intelligent race that is physically imposing to keep up with being able to hunt giants. One that regularly trains (has class levels), doesn't have a large amount of numbers of the race, yet holds out against larger, and more numerous enemies.

If I can accomplish that, I have a malleable race to toy with. I don't need a large group, I just make a higher level NPC for an encounter. A lone creature that hunts in a wild and dangerous place would obviously be strong, experienced and able to take care of itself, so it fits pretty well.

[Magrus]

I think I'm going with this:

Large Monstrous Humanoid
3d8 HD
Ability Adjustments: Str +10, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -, Wis +2, Cha -2
Fur- +2 Nat. Armor
Claw- 1d8 (2-Primary Attack)
Bite- 1d6 (Secondary Attack)
Speed- 40
+2 Racial Bonus to Climb and Jump Checks

Special Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Damage Reduction 2/-

Feats: gets 2 feats based on Hit Dice

Skills: 2+ (Int Mod.) x6; Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

BAB- as Fighter
Saves- 1/3/3

LA-3

Between the stat bonuses, the armor bonus, the damage reduction, and other bonuses, I think that warrants the +3 Level Adjustment. If someone happens to disagree, please let me know though.

[Rob-hin]

Don't forget that:
3HD + 3LA = Total level adjustment of 6.