GameBanshee Forums

Hmmm, I see. Don't you think there are better options for the cloak slot (like cloak of mirroring?)

To each his own, I suppose. *I* just never found backstab to be all that useful against the opponents that I really need it to work against (the big ones).

-Polaris

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Don't you think there are better options for the cloak slot (like cloak of mirroring?)</STRONG>

You don't need the Cloak of Mirroring if nobody sees you. You don't need the Cloak of Non-Detection once you've become visible. Just switch between the two.

Ofcourse you hide before the enemy has seen you so he won't start his stoneskin.

Originally posted by Ieo:
<STRONG>True sight doesn't work against a hide-in-shadows thief with the Cloak of Nondetection, so that's great (didn't try the spell since I have the cloak). Even if not used for backstabbing, it's great for just scouting mage-laden areas. Yes, stoneskin is a pain, but I imagine weapons that dispel would help with that, though I couldn't backstab with non-piercing/slashing weapons (e.g. Crom).</STRONG>

I guess true sight DISPELS (?) non-detection. But the cloak maintains permanent non-detection I guess (shrugs). Only seems to work if the character stealths (non-magic) as invisibility (magic) is dispelled.

You are wrong about 'if he can't see you, he won't have stoneskin'.

Stoneskin (and Ironskin) has a 12 hour duration. That means that the mage (or druid) assuming they have any smarts at all will always have one up. That takes the sting out of backstabbing, let me tell you!

-Polaris

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Stoneskin (and Ironskin) has a 12 hour duration. That means that the mage (or druid) assuming they have any smarts at all will always have one up.</STRONG>

How many times did you see that
assumption come true in BG? All those high level Mages seem pretty stupid for Int 18 people. Of course, everybody and their mom has a Contingency set to Stoneskin at 50% Hit Points, but that won't help against insta-kill backstabs.

I asked this before but still haven't tested it out. If you backstab with a weapon that has elemental damage, such as Blackblood +3 club, the elemental damage is multiplied when factoring the total backstab damage. Does this mean if someone is wearing stoneskins and you backstab them anyway with, say..., the club of detonation, for example, you'll possibly do 20 pts of fire damage X7 (or X5 if you're a regular thief)? That should be enough to kill most mages in the game, even through their stoneskins. If someone has tried this out, let us know.

All I can say from the Protagonists PoV is that I *always* have stoneskin active. I have found that gives me total immunity from backstab....even from Cyric's favored.

When trying it the other way *I* haven't had too much success, and given how useless it seemed against me is a large reason why I don't care for it. As I said before though, to each his own. IIRC if the stoneskin negates the backstab, the elemental damage is not multiplied.

-Polaris

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>All I can say from the Protagonists PoV is that I *always* have stoneskin active. I have found that gives me total immunity from backstab....even from Cyric's favored.
<snip>
-Polaris</STRONG>

Yes, but I suppose the entire point of this thread is from the protagonist *thief's* POV, of which I can say I've offed many an enemy mage before they could cast stoneskin (this is a "fault" in their AI scripting, perhaps, so it has nothing to do with your mage, but the other enemy mages). Granted I went through the BG games many times before I even tried backstab, but it's a very useful tool if you can do it correctly. As for other important Cloaks, I leave the Cloak of mirroring on my main tank, who takes the brunt of enemy attention while my thief runs around picking off stragglers, including clerics (no stoneskin there!) and archers as well as mages.

While soloing an assassin, I only recall one mage having stoneskins active before I encountered them. It was the one in the docks district, the quest Edwin sends you on. I just left and did another quest and when I returned the following day, the mage was stoneskin free. Kinda felt cheap, but hey..., you're a thief after all! Mages were the easiest part of the game.

IIRC, I believe the highest backstab I got was 276. I have the pic on my PC and will try and post it when I return home.

Before I even start trying to script enemy Mages, would you all think that a high level Mage should have Stoneskin on 24/7? Problem is that enemies don't rest, so if you run and come back a day later their Stoneskin has worn off and cannot be replenished except by "faking" rememorization. This feels a bit like cheating, but then again, my Mages do have Stoneskin 24/7...

Ok, let me just clarify something. Non-detection (cloak or otherwise) does crap against True Sight. True Sight will kill any magical invisibilty straight out the gate. It's dispelled so you become visible. Non-detection protects against detection and "see invisible", but it won't keep your magic on you. However if you just go into hide via natural skill, and run around with the cloak or spell, true sight will be ineffective against you, so backstab to your heart's content. Also, if you're smart, you can drink potions between true-sight dispels, and do multiple backstabs.

Still useless against a stoneskinned spell user (mage dual or druid). The moment you backstab, you can be seen. You might not be able to be targeted by a spell, but you CAN be attacked...and if truesight is up, you are SOL. You can not use Hide In Shadows (sucessfully) if you are in view of an enemy (this is straight from the PnP rules as well).

All said, at the levels in SoA and ToB, I find backstab rather useless personally. Again, your milage may vary.

[I should say, that *I* don't fear NPC backstabs.]

-Polaris

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>[I should say, that *I* don't fear NPC backstabs.]

-Polaris</STRONG>

I agree, Polaris. As a PC mage of any type, druid, or bard, I never feared backstabs for the same reason. I always had stoneskins active. It's called being prepared, and it's another reason mages have such lousy people skills. The general populace are suspicious of a walking statue in their midst. However, it saves our lives!

That being said, a good assassin waits for the time to be right to strike. I have little problem with waiting and returning later, if you can afford to. Only a fool or a desperate man would try to attack a mage with all his protections up. A good killer would wait for the time to be right before striking. However, IMHO it's mostly just bad AI that more mages in the game aren't stoneskined when you meet them.

On to the True Seeing topic. I have stated before, True Sight is both an abjuration spell and a divination spell. It dispells (abjuration) invisibility and illusion and detects (divination) the same. Non-detect protects you from divination, but does nothing vs. abjuration. So..., invisibility is not the best form of concealment for this line of work. The key to backstabbing mages, IMO, is hide in shadows. When hidden, there is nothing for the mage to dispel, and you are undetectable. True Seeing has no effect! You stab, and down goes one mage (yes, I know...NPC ). Then, you drink potion and turn invisible. All the spells the other mages began targeting you are lost. You retreat around a corner and they (probably) cast true seeing. Your invisibility is dispelled, but you're now out of their line of sight, so you can hide in shadows and start the process all over again. If you're hidden in shadows and they cast true seeing, simply wait behind their back until it wears off (it doesn't last very long), and hack away.

Of course, this is for NPC mages. With PC mages it is a different story. Of course, with PC *insert your favorite class here*, it's a different story as well, so it goes without saying.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Rail ]

There is another tool which can enhance backstabbing tactics: Staff of Magi. Hit the enemy mage with it to dispel stoneskin/mirror image. Then reequip, go away and hide. On the next attack switch to the usual backstabbing weapon.
This was the way to go with SoA speed solo (M/T) and now it is available to any thief.

Originally posted by Pete:
<STRONG>mine is 260. And I am not kidding, have screen shot to prove, as soon as I find out how to post it.</STRONG>

Mine is 284, and I also have the screenshot to prove it. My PC, a level-24 assassin, got that on a critical hit using Celestial Fury doing nonuple (9x) damage. Needless to say, the Fire Giant she backstabbed was instantaneously reduced to tiny chunky bits. And my assassin did this shortly after backstabbing another Fire Giant for 266 damage!

@Pete - You can backstab with any quarterstaff, with the exception of the Staff of the Magi, which has some flag set to disallow backstabbing.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Sojourner ]

Originally posted by Sojourner:
<STRONG>You can backstab with any quarterstaff, with the exception of the Staff of the Magi, which has some flag set to disallow backstabbing.</STRONG>

It's probably not specifically flagged as being unsuitable for backstabs. You can backstab with any weapon usable by Thieves, but the Staff isn't usable by regular Thieves (only with Use Any Item).

I did 1052 in damage with my assassin yesterday and this is without cheating and playing cheese.

@Garcia - What were you backstabbing with?

backstabbing? I used the daystar. I was surrounded by shadow creatures (13 I think) and accidently when I wanted to use the ring of invis. I hit the sunray spell (sun Vs shadow) all died and some only got 85 or so in damage but most got 1000-1100 damage. and I went "ahh sunray" I always forget to use item specials.