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I have a different sugestion about what the Sheriff is! In the book Thugmaturgical Creatures in the Tremere chantry, where you can read about Gargoyels you also can read for another creation of the Tremere clan, named Homonculi. It's mentioned in the last paragraph and it's says exactly: "Homonculi: For the most menial and mindless tasks, many Tremere create what is called a Homoculus. These are mindless creatures, which take many forms, winged, many-legged, or otherwise. Homonculi are unfailingly loyal, but their appearance makes them a serious threat to breaking the Masquerade." So when I saw it I sad to myself that, this is the perfect description for the Sheriff. What do you think?!

Nice idea...Homunculi are little creatures though. Usually dog or chimp sized, like a wizard's familiar. You would use them as messengers, little helpers, or small guards ( akin to a dog ), not something as large as the Sheriff and certainly not as powerfull.

I have a different sugestion about what the Sheriff is! In the book Thugmaturgical Creatures in the Tremere chantry, where you can read about Gargoyels you also can read for another creation of the Tremere clan, named Homonculi. It's mentioned in the last paragraph and it's says exactly: "Homonculi: For the most menial and mindless tasks, many Tremere create what is called a Homoculus. These are mindless creatures, which take many forms, winged, many-legged, or otherwise. Homonculi are unfailingly loyal, but their appearance makes them a serious threat to breaking the Masquerade." So when I saw it I sad to myself that, this is the perfect description for the Sheriff. What do you think?!

nah, I don't think the Sheriff is a Homunculi, 'cause as far as I know (not too much) only Vamps from Tremere Clan can 'create' these creatures, and as the Prince is not a Tremere, he couldn't make one for him. Unless a Tremere made the Sheriff to be loyal to the prince, which is not probably, since I've never seen a Gargoyle loyal to a Brujah, for instance.

I think it's hard to your ideia be true, still it was well thought!

[QUOTE=Lucita]Nice idea...Homunculi are little creatures though. Usually dog or chimp sized, like a wizard's familiar. You would use them as messengers, little helpers, or small guards ( akin to a dog ), not something as large as the Sheriff and certainly not as powerfull.[/QUOTE]
That depends a lot on what religion you are listening to. Homunculi are small in certain versions of the world, but in others, they are larger than life (i/e giants). In most respects, I would go with the Sherrif as a Homunculus but one. Homunculi generally aren't endowed with powers of any kind. They are usually disposable cannon-fodder, and thus have no use of any power. They are typically very hard to kill, but beyond that, fairly normal.

To add something else into the mix, the sheriff takes a fair bit of criticism from La Croix, in front of other people too. His position is threatened by La Croix in reference to the PC, and his failure to deal with the Sabbat is compared to the PC's success. Given the sheriff's powers, one wonders why.

Best guesses are either La Croix's domination (but wouldn't that suggest that the sheriff might not be that high in generation, making his powers even more of a mystery?), a blood bond (improbable I would think), or some sort of more mundane hold (maybe the sheriff needs La Croix and the Camarilla to protect him from other vampires, or he has Ventrue-like toleration of only certain types of blood, and la Croix is the supplier). All of which makes the sheriff seem a little less powerful. I quite like the domination idea, as it fits with the rest of the game, having the PC be weaker than the sheriff at the start, but after defeat of the sheriff (so being more powerful than him) one is also resistant to domination by La Croix.

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]That depends a lot on what religion you are listening to. Homunculi are small in certain versions of the world, but in others, they are larger than life (i/e giants). In most respects, I would go with the Sherrif as a Homunculus but one. Homunculi generally aren't endowed with powers of any kind. They are usually disposable cannon-fodder, and thus have no use of any power. They are typically very hard to kill, but beyond that, fairly normal.[/QUOTE]

Religion aside, the Homonuclus in the Vampire game come in only two forms, the Thurmaturgical creations, and an Elder Level Protean power... Both of which are no taller then a Corgi, and only one of which posses any real strength and potence. Both are difficult to destory under the best of circumstance, however neither are large enough to pass for a Vampire.

As for why the Sherif puts up with the Prince... Sherifs are almost always more phsyicaly powerful then a Prince... However Princes are typicaly FAR from powerful then a Sherif. It's all well and good to try and swing a sword at your Prince and cut off his head, but the fact remains that, if you don't kill him in the that first chop (And with Vampires, you almost never will), then you don't have anywhere you can go or anything you can do. The Prince likley owns or has acess to people who own power and gas companies, construction companies, police and military, local gangs, news papers and other media, fire departments, mob and a host of other infulences that can make a vampires life an unliving hell... Or an exceptionaly short experince.

A Prince can also call a Blood Hunt, and if he has enough reason and pull within the Camerilla, that Blood Hunt can extend to everywhere a Vampire can go... Heck, bother a Prince enough and he might just push to have you applied to the Red List... The Vampire Top 100 People Who Just Gotta Die! Killing a member of the Red List comes with great rewards so tempting other Vampires would step over their own grandmother, who they just drained dry, to get at them.

Suffice to say, if the Prince says "You are a whiney little maggot and I have no time for you" you say "Yes sir, thank you sir."

I always thought that the creatures you fight in the Nosferatu Warrens were supposed to be Homonculi created by Andrie...

[QUOTE=pennypincher]Religion aside, the Homonuclus in the Vampire game come in only two forms, the Thurmaturgical creations, and an Elder Level Protean power... Both of which are no taller then a Corgi, and only one of which posses any real strength and potence. Both are difficult to destory under the best of circumstance, however neither are large enough to pass for a Vampire.[/QUOTE]

.... but I guess not. Not the larger ones, anyway. Given Andrei's clan, I suppose they're just monsters he made with fleshcrafting.

I have a Sheriff related question msyelf. Suppose you side with Camrilla. At the end of the game, Straus becomes Prince of LA. Would he consider appionting the PC as his new Sheriff? You're still a fledgling at this point, but still... By the end of the game you've pretty much proven that you're easily one of the most badass vampires in the city. Or would such a position only go to an older, more experienced vampire?

[QUOTE=Anaximander]I have a Sheriff related question msyelf. Suppose you side with Camrilla. At the end of the game, Straus becomes Prince of LA. Would he consider appionting the PC as his new Sheriff? You're still a fledgling at this point, but still... By the end of the game you've pretty much proven that you're easily one of the most badass vampires in the city. Or would such a position only go to an older, more experienced vampire?[/QUOTE]

seeing as the tremere kind of operate a pyramid system as far as positions are concerned, i would have thought strauss would appoint someone near the top of the pyramid and who is tremere. despite your actions, you have only been a vamp for a few days so even if you are tremere, i doubt he'd take you as sheriff. thats just my thoughts on it anyway.

[QUOTE=Anaximander]I always thought that the creatures you fight in the Nosferatu Warrens were supposed to be Homonculi created by Andrie...

.... but I guess not. Not the larger ones, anyway. Given Andrei's clan, I suppose they're just monsters he made with fleshcrafting.

I have a Sheriff related question msyelf. Suppose you side with Camrilla. At the end of the game, Straus becomes Prince of LA. Would he consider appionting the PC as his new Sheriff? You're still a fledgling at this point, but still... By the end of the game you've pretty much proven that you're easily one of the most badass vampires in the city. Or would such a position only go to an older, more experienced vampire?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the critters in the warrens are whats known as (And someone will no doubt correct my spelling here) Schlacter. A Schlacter is any ghoul made with vicissitude to fit a role by the Tzimisce master... Be it a tall, beautiful ghoul desinged to seduce the Toreadore down the road, or a broard shouldred, four armed monster designed to protect his/her/it's sleeping chambers... Or a 2 foot tall insane drooling mess of teeth and claws designed to run through tight drain pipes and chase Nossies, then so be it.

The counterpart of the Schlacter is (and again, spelling) a Vhozd. Being made of a minimum of 12 odd humans and assorted animals. This required a massive ritual and currently there are no more then about 5 Vhozd in creation thanks to the limited number of people who can make them. Vhozd are sufficently inhuman and mad that they can't be effected by mental powers (whos mind in that mess do you effect anyway?) and that just laying eyes on one can send mortals mad and drive vampires away from their humanity.

As for making you sherif... Well, knowing the Tremere it would be... Unlikley. They really don't like to make mistakes, and making a neonate (Even an awesome one) Sherif would be a massive social one.

Sorry Pennypincher, I don't think I made myself clear. Evidently the prince is more powerful than the sheriff in the grand scheme of things, but the way people talk about the relationship between the prince and the sheriff is that they come together. Supposedly the sheriff was found by La Croix in Africa, and has accompanied him since, and they work together. That suggests a partnership to me, or something similar, not simply compliance by the sheriff to his appointment. It is not so simple as the prince having more power, if only because he may not have had that power (indeed given his seemingly new status as a prince, probably did not) when he first encountered the sheriff. So there might be something more there.

[QUOTE=Anaximander]
I have a Sheriff related question msyelf. Suppose you side with Camrilla. At the end of the game, Straus becomes Prince of LA. Would he consider appionting the PC as his new Sheriff? You're still a fledgling at this point, but still... By the end of the game you've pretty much proven that you're easily one of the most badass vampires in the city. Or would such a position only go to an older, more experienced vampire?[/QUOTE]

Who told you Strauss becomes the prince of L.A. ?
1) He said he aspires not to "such lowly heights" !
2) Tremere's interest lies mainly in the clan ( in the protection of their secrets) ergo a tremere would never accept to be invested with an office if it could entail a loss of privacy !

then,
who but a ventrue could ever become the prince of a city ?
They're the most useless guys in kindred society but they know when it's time to make their step !:laugh:
Anyway I don't think you need to be an elder to become Sheriff. You just need to prove you have some skill, become a trusted agent and that's it!

I'm with Balance here. To be a Sheriff, wisdom isn't necessary ( I guess a guy with few Wisdom would make a better Sheriff, than a Wiser one ) Also, the Sheriff is just an Enforcer, he don't actually need to take too much desicions, as the prince do. So probably, you'll become a Sheriff in this hypothetical situation which Strauss becomes the prince of LA.

At least, I'd make the PC a Sheriff since he destroyed the Sabbat's outpost, Andrei, the SoL, half of the prince's tower and so on.... recieving orders from the prince and accomplishing them loyally (at least while you thought the Prince was loyal to the Camarilla, not to the power).

Oh! I see Confuzzled, you're right. That does raise other questions. Maybe he can speak like that because they are old friends... In on the caper together? Maybe it's a trick to make people belive they are less friendly then they really are? Hmmm.. Dunno... Maybe the Sherif was a slave in the old day and is used to it now.

Meanwhile, there are many Tremere Princes, and Tremere are indeed concerened with the clan first and foremost, and nothing would please the clan as a whole more then having more cities under their belt. For a bunch of guys who were considered "Evil" not to long ago, they need as many stable foundations away from their enemies as they can get.

In addition, you do need both wisdom and age to be a Sherif. First of all, the Sherif rules mostly through fear and respect... Kindred can get away with a LOT if they put their minds to it, but if they belive a powerful, clever Vampire is Sherif, they are less likley to try. Second, the Sherif has the power to issue Destruction... Something an unwise, young kindred easliy abuses and quickly needs to be put in his place... There is nothing more deadly to a Princes domain then having a feeble neonate running around with no more then 50 years under his belt and the power to kill other Kindred.

Third, if the other, older Kindred feel they are being passed up for decent positions, they are likley to withdraw support from a Prince, and a Prince can only be Prince as long as most of the local Elders support him. The people in positions are either Elders, or people backed and chosen by Elders. Fourth, if a Sherif doesn't have eyes and ears everywhere, he's uselsss. There's no point having a powerful enforcer who doesn't have a clue when and where enforcment is needed. Older Kindred always have more contacts and allies and influence enabling them to track down the Princes enemies.

You know, the list goes on. Basicly, there is a myriad of reasons you don't want someone who was embraced 10 nights ago in a position, EVEN if they seem perfect. Of course, if none of the Elders want it (Too deadly being a Sherif) then... Well.

Meanwhile, the Ventrue are maybe one of the most powerful and potent clans. From their days as Knights of old, to them founding the Camerilla, to the modern lords of industry and wealth, they are maybe the most influential clan in the sect, and one of the revered clans outside of it.

Yep, gotta second Pennypincher on that...

A sheriff is more then your brainless enforcer, he has to have good informants too, especially in a fragmented territory like the greater LA area ( considering all the Anarch baronies, Kuei Jin and Sabbat incursions ). The VTM Sheriff is more like a personal bodyguard then anything else in the game. Having a monster like him around is a little bit against the Masquerade usually, he must have had Obfuscate to hide his true nature in front of humans.

My current ideas why the Prince had him as a sheriff are these:

1st: His humanity rating must have been low ( probably 1 or 2 ) and Lacroix dominated him easily.

2nd: Lacroix somehow aquired his services through a boon or some promise, therefor getting his services.

3rd: Lacroix knew something wicked about him and blackmailed him into servitute.

I personally think 2 might be the best hit, as it would best describe why a 9th generation ? Ventrue prince had a 6th or 7th generation ? Gangrel ( or Tzimisce ) in his service.

As of the Ventrue not being powerful....the Ventrue might be the most powerful Clan in the Camarilla. Dominate and Presence is a bad combination ! And Fortitude....it's allways bad when your opponent just shrugs away your most powerful attacks.

It could also be that the Prince is using the threat of such a brute to try and bring the local Kindred together. Anarchs and Sabbat will never obey a Prince out of respect and loyality, might they might do as they were bloody-well told if the edict is read allowed by a 4 tonne ape with a sharpened support beam on his back that he calls a "Sword".

[QUOTE=pennypincher]
In addition, you do need both wisdom and age to be a Sherif (...)
Fourth, if a Sherif doesn't have eyes and ears everywhere, he's uselsss. There's no point having a powerful enforcer who doesn't have a clue when and where enforcment is needed. Older Kindred always have more contacts and allies and influence enabling them to track down the Princes enemies.
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I think the Prince should provide enought information to the Sheriff, just like the ones he gave to the PC while you're following his quests (Hollowbrook Hotel - Main information: dispose the Sabbat). So the Sheriff can't be stupid or a moron, 'cause otherwise some 'missions' would be compromised, but he doesn't need to be an influent Vampire in kindred society or too old Vampire!. FOr instance the PC did a Sherrif's work in many quests, without needing any wisdom (PC = few night old Vampire!!).

i think whether they would take on a relatively new vamp as a sheriff would depend on the prince and how highly they regard that particularly vampire's ability. however, i do still think its unlikely that a tremere prince would take on a vampire thats still at the bottom of the tremere hierarchy.

No, thats a totaly unrealistic expectation, and anyone who did that wouldn't be a Prince much longer.

A Sherif NEEDS to be in touch with thats going on. He needs minions, infulence, ghouls, eyes and ears everywhere. A Prince is busy being a Prince, he has an entier city to run... And certainly, from time to time, he will call on his Sherif (Or anyone he thinks he can work for free, like your character) to take care of issues that he/she/it might have a personal invovlment in... But a Sherifs job is very different.

A Sherif acts as a barrier bewteen all Kindred, and lacking one, he/she/it also acts as a Scourge from time to time. The duties invovled are things like:

Making sure all Kindred honour the Domain, and each others Domain.
Making sure all disputes are settled by the Prince and not in personal duke outs.
Making sure no new Embraces go past without the right of Progeny.
Watching the movments of the enemies of the city.
Keeping up a fearsome face for the Kindred.
Removing wandering Cattiff, Anarchs and Independant Clan members.
Tracking the activitys of all the cities Kindred and their dealings.
Watching the movment of the mortal pawns of all the cities Kindred.
Making sure new arrivals to the city are brought before the Prince.
Watching over his/her/it's own investments in the mean time.
Favour currying. Mmmm... Curry.
Prince's personal protection.
Being aware of the movments of important Kindred members and visitors (Archons, Justicars...)
Controling the violent parts of the city.
Combat.
Controling the inwards and outwards movments of weapons in a city.
Personal go-to boy for the Prince when he needs muscle.
Lap dog and pawn for the Elders.
Even, for lack of a better person, Keeper Of Elyisum.

I agree, the progression of the PC in the game is poorly represented. Any Kindred who gained attributes and powers at that rate would be an Elder by the end of the Month and playing black jack with Caine and winning after a year. However, it's up to a Prince to ensure that he not only satisfys the needs of the city, but keeps the favour of the Elders... And there is 0% chance that the Elders will look at ANY Vampire... Made outside the Traditions only a few nights ago... And consider it material for all the roles mentioned above.

Unless they are looking for an excuse to have the Prince removed.

The Prince has to consider saving face with the Elders, being feared by the Kindred, having a plyable, yet loyal staff, and having a Sherif who doesn't depend on him to do his job for him.

Trust me, I've been playing and running this game for a VERY long time. If you start putting fledgelings and neonates in public office, you don't last as a Prince. It's like a President putting an 8 year old in charge of Defence and claiming "But he just beat me in a game of Risk by closing his eyes and flailing about at random. He's perfect!... Sure, I had to play most of his moves for him..."

oh well, then, seems I misunderstood the role of a Sheriff..
if what you say is true, yes, the Sheriff CAN'T be a dumb neonate..

still, due to the PC's progression and achievments, I bet he wouldn't be a bad sheriff... but it's just my opinion anyway...

Well, let's say that the progression in Skills, Attributes and Disciplines is way out of the normal Pen&Paper one. Even a very active Neonate would need a century or more to get that much experience and that many dots in her statistics.

My old Pen&Paper character had such characteristics after years of playing....