What is your opinion 'bout samurais

[Lestat]

A colleague of mine had a box with the great classics of Kurosawa. So I've seen those fairly recently.

Since I liked his I was willing to see whether anything else was up for grabs, thanks!

And the samurai sauce is not that bad on fries, though I personnally prefer andalouse.

[dj_venom]

[QUOTE=fable]Next, you'll be telling us that economic conditions in 14th century Granada weren't bad, that Trinitarian religious beliefs weren't relatively late...[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, defintely...*looks around* I agree completely... .

Fable, I'm shocked at you, you have aided and abetted spammers, I thought Gods were above the petty squables of mankind.

Samurais are good, but frankly, I'd rather be the guy in full plate mail with a sword and shield, then the weirdo dancing around with no protection and a two handed sword.

[uglym]

To lestat (and the others)

Hi All,
I'm the one who is responsible for the recipe of samurai sauce.
I run the site <snip: No advertisments as per forum rule #4 - Xandax>
Lestat has a point: the sauce is great on fries! (not french fries, but belgian fries to be correct).
If only you guys knew what we put on our fries: do you know "fries special" (free translation)?
Its fries with mayo, ketchup and sliced onions! (really )
Well, why i wrote this?
Just great to know that our site has reached the states.
See you later guys, BTW: samurai should be respected : (NO?)
Uglym.

[Fiona]

Spooky coincidence * looks worried about belgian conspiracy*

Welcome Uglym. Nice site

[uglym]

nothing spooky

Thanks Fiona,
Nothing spooky about it though: just saw some visitors to my site coming through this forum
Looked around a bit and signed up: seems a nice group of people.
Well, its around 0.30 PM around here... think I'm turning in.. goodnight to all and sweet dreams
Uglym

[Minerva]

[QUOTE=fable]Shucks, Luis. You remove all my fun this way!

I honestly don't know what he wants. Does he mean he wants us to discuss the samurai code at some point in history? After all, it has changed quite a bit. Does he man he wants us to discuss the way samurai were treated before or after the Meiji Restoration by the government? Social aspects of clan life in Japan? The way samurai are depicted in the films of Kurosawa, or perhaps the more realistic, cynical view of Mizoguchi? Tactics in wartime?

If you're confused by this, think how I feel.[/QUOTE]

I second this.

I also wonder if he/she is someone who played too many games about Samurais and got certain kind of image, or someone who did a bit of research and got frustrated, or could be a Japanese who wonders what non-Japanese people know about Samurai.


That could change how I would respond.

[dj_venom]

[QUOTE=uglym]Thanks Fiona,
Nothing spooky about it though: just saw some visitors to my site coming through this forum
Looked around a bit and signed up: seems a nice group of people.[/QUOTE]

Glad you could join, and I encourage you to have a talk, or rather, spam, with some of the people here. Feel free to post in the Succeeder Stronghold, or the Heathen Citadel, and have fun.

[fable]

[QUOTE=dj_venom]Fable, I'm shocked at you, you have aided and abetted spammers, I thought Gods were above the petty squables of mankind. [/quote]

It's part of my even-handed nature. Once, I built a mighty city over many years, only to destroy it in less than five minutes through a mudslide. A relative of mine helped found a formidable nation, only to destroy it two centuries later by helping to elect George Bush.

I am also considering joining a GB spam society, though I am not fully aware of the attractions and problems associated with any of them. Furthermore, they must serve chicken tandoori, if they wish my approval.

Samurais are good, but frankly, I'd rather be the guy in full plate mail with a sword and shield, then the weirdo dancing around with no protection and a two handed sword.

All armor had joins, and there were always stress points even in the best protected suits. A really good blade could find those joins, and wear them down, while the person wearing the plate armor probably wouldn't score a single hit. A fair amount of that stuff (and some of it is quite beautiful) was only for ceremonial display, in any case. Plate armor was much more effective when the wearer was on horseback and formed a moving target, because then they had mobility and power, combined.

Did you know that the Japanese had cannon as good as the finest Portugese models, and excellent flintlocks? They even manufactured them. Tokugawa, that smart fellow, very slowly and carefully collected the weapons over time and closed down the factories, because he was afraid of the social implications of such powerful weapons being in less than noble hands. As I recall, samurai still had the right under the Shogunate to chop down any peasant that didn't display sufficient respect, but that's hard to do if gun-toting peasants form bands and pay late night visits on samurai.

[Luis Antonio]

Join the HC! You're already a part of the story there

Sides, now our taste improved, we like Chicken Tandoori :laugh:

[dj_venom]

[QUOTE=fable]It's part of my even-handed nature. Once, I built a mighty city over many years, only to destroy it in less than five minutes through a mudslide. A relative of mine helped found a formidable nation, only to destroy it two centuries later by helping to elect George Bush.[/QUOTE]

Hahaha :laugh: ! Who can understand the Gods, and their ways?

[QUOTE=fable]I am also considering joining a GB spam society, though I am not fully aware of the attractions and problems associated with any of them. Furthermore, they must serve chicken tandoori, if they wish my approval. [/QUOTE]

We will never serve the tandoori, we instead serve the evil brother... SATAY CHICKEN! But we'd love you to start spamming (not sure if you did it in the past, though I have a feeling you did...)

[QUOTE=fable]All armor had joins, and there were always stress points even in the best protected suits. A really good blade could find those joins, and wear them down, while the person wearing the plate armor probably wouldn't score a single hit. A fair amount of that stuff (and some of it is quite beautiful) was only for ceremonial display, in any case. Plate armor was much more effective when the wearer was on horseback and formed a moving target, because then they had mobility and power, combined.[/QUOTE]

Oh certainly, and that's what I mean, a lot of stuff relating to samurais focuses more on the ceremonial aspect, which is a comletely different suit. But the benefits of plate, as you say, is when you are moving at a speed, it would be difficult to shoot you with a well placed arrow. However it would be somewhat easier with a samurai, because they were suited for honourable, man to man battles.

[QUOTE=fable]Did you know that the Japanese had cannon as good as the finest Portugese models, and excellent flintlocks? They even manufactured them. Tokugawa, that smart fellow, very slowly and carefully collected the weapons over time and closed down the factories, because he was afraid of the social implications of such powerful weapons being in less than noble hands. As I recall, samurai still had the right under the Shogunate to chop down any peasant that didn't display sufficient respect, but that's hard to do if gun-toting peasants form bands and pay late night visits on samurai. [/QUOTE]

Nope, I never knew, though that's extremely interesting. Though you could never stop the tide of advancement, especially in war related aspects. Afterall, gun powder was THE weapon in the last 17 hundreds and on, if you didn't have it, you were severly weakened.

[fable]

[QUOTE=dj_venom]We will never serve the tandoori, we instead serve the evil brother... SATAY CHICKEN! But we'd love you to start spamming (not sure if you did it in the past, though I have a feeling you did...)[/quote]

I actually broke the rules when I first joined, and added political spam to my first posts in the BG2 forum. It's true! Make sure no one who is reading this gets away alive. We can't let it spread.

And in addition, do you know who called me on it? Another member who was really annoyed, by the name of--Weasel. Seriously.

Oh certainly, and that's what I mean, a lot of stuff relating to samurais focuses more on the ceremonial aspect, which is a comletely different suit. But the benefits of plate, as you say, is when you are moving at a speed, it would be difficult to shoot you with a well placed arrow. However it would be somewhat easier with a samurai, because they were suited for honourable, man to man battles.

Still seems to be some debate about whether samurai were heavy mounted troops at some point, or always on foot. I suspect, given the number of lords during the "lawless period," all sorts of different formations were tried. But as you say, the code was intended to pit samurai against samurai. It didn't always work out, but the shame/social ethos seemed to have worked rather better at achieving this than the guilt/religious ethos of latter-day knights.

Nope, I never knew, though that's extremely interesting. Though you could never stop the tide of advancement, especially in war related aspects. Afterall, gun powder was THE weapon in the last 17 hundreds and on, if you didn't have it, you were severly weakened.

As long as Japan was out of touch with the West, and this continued through the mid-19th century ACE, they were able sustain the un-invention of gunpowder. Isolation can be a powerful tool. But once Admiral Perry landed, that was the end of it. Though I don't think the more traditional samurai clans ever fully adapted to the new weaponry. To this day, there are many classes teaching traditional Japanese weaponry styles, and quite a few salarymen at least claim to have their ancestral swords.

[ik911]

[QUOTE=fable]I actually broke the rules when I first joined, and added political spam to my first posts in the BG2 forum. It's true! Make sure no one who is reading this gets away alive. We can't let it spread.[/QUOTE]
Phew, I'm glad I skipped the first couple of paragraphs..

[fable]

[QUOTE=ik911]Phew, I'm glad I skipped the first couple of paragraphs..[/QUOTE]

We'll kill you anyway, because we like you.

[ik911]

[QUOTE=fable]We'll kill you anyway, because we like you. [/QUOTE]
If it's in an appreciatory way, I'll play along.

Otherwise, I shall be forced to fake it.

[Luis Antonio]

[QUOTE=fable]We'll kill you anyway, because we like you. [/QUOTE]

After the Dead Poet's Society, we'll have the Dead Spammer Society. Only that instead of a do gooder teacher, we'll have a Babylonian God and tons of spam

[ik911]

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]After the Dead Poet's Society, we'll have the Dead Spammer Society. Only that instead of a do gooder teacher, we'll have a Babylonian God and tons of spam [/QUOTE]
I saw the movie last week. I thought it was grand. Made me think about philosophy and how I miss that as a basis. I was advised to get a reading list. I'm quite interested.

Dead Spammers Society doesn't sound bad either, though.

[dj_venom]

[QUOTE=fable]I actually broke the rules when I first joined, and added political spam to my first posts in the BG2 forum. It's true! Make sure no one who is reading this gets away alive. We can't let it spread.

And in addition, do you know who called me on it? Another member who was really annoyed, by the name of--Weasel. Seriously.[/quote]

Heh heh, you're joking. That is the strangest thing I have heard all year (out of 24 days ), you must have pushed him over the edge then, and you made him what he is.

I think you were probably the first mod to punish me, and I say that by telling me to put spoilers in, because like many a newbie, I didn't read the the thread .

[QUOTE=fable]Still seems to be some debate about whether samurai were heavy mounted troops at some point, or always on foot. I suspect, given the number of lords during the "lawless period," all sorts of different formations were tried. But as you say, the code was intended to pit samurai against samurai. It didn't always work out, but the shame/social ethos seemed to have worked rather better at achieving this than the guilt/religious ethos of latter-day knights.[/quote]

*nods* Knights were known for following the tenets of their faiths... when it suited them. It would probably have a lot to do with the culture, and the selection for samurai. From what I know of English history, many a knight was simply the son of a noble, and was pressured into it to gain status. And even if they had a few fails, they still went on. Meanwhile, once a samurai broke his code, death was his atonement. As such, it would have encouraged a more revered status, and thereby making the samurai a much more responsible and disciplined person, than the Knight of English history.

[QUOTE=fable]As long as Japan was out of touch with the West, and this continued through the mid-19th century ACE, they were able sustain the un-invention of gunpowder. Isolation can be a powerful tool. But once Admiral Perry landed, that was the end of it. Though I don't think the more traditional samurai clans ever fully adapted to the new weaponry. To this day, there are many classes teaching traditional Japanese weaponry styles, and quite a few salarymen at least claim to have their ancestral swords.[/QUOTE]

It is amazing what isolation can do though, just a comparision, Australia before the invasion of the Brittish, was simply made up of about 100 clans/tribes, all with different ideals, beliefs, and partially different languages. These tribes would trade with each other, but were mostly self sufficent, living off the land, each knowing the benefits of their area, such as the clan on the coast would know about fishing, while inland would know about hoarding water for dry seasons. Now look at Japan, which was discovered 150 years later, but they were far more advanced, even back when Australia was discovered they were still far more advanced.

[Hill-Shatar]

I forget who first chastised me. Proabably one of the mods of the KotOR forums. If not, I think it was Aegis.

[ch85us2001]

Hmmm, samurais are good, but Spamurais are better. *nods*

[fable]

[QUOTE=dj_venom]Heh heh, you're joking. That is the strangest thing I have heard all year (out of 24 days ), you must have pushed him over the edge then, and you made him what he is.[/quote]

Weasel never needed any pushing over the edge. He owned the edge, and the piece of real estate on it.

From what I know of English history, many a knight was simply the son of a noble, and was pressured into it to gain status.

The knight originally was simply a sort of local chieftain who in turn ruled a series of other chiefs. They were either deeded land, or captured it, or simply took it when left unoccupied. Many were rapacious lordlings out to form combinations that could destroy still other knights. The history of the German states is full of this: agreements, betrayals, assassinations, etc. Matters began to change in the 14th century, when the RCC began the furor over knightly orders. Suddenly, orders became a very powerful weapon of state. Each king and even some lords had their own order, while the Knights of Jerusalem actually enjoyed a kind of quasi-religious status. Experts on chivalry began to appear, and knights were in some cases held to very strenuous, and often ridiculous, standards. There was a penchant in Occitania, the nation that was once the southern third of France (with bits of Italy thrown in), for knights to promise to leave off some or all their armor until they had killed X number of Saracens and could return with proof to their ladies fair. They usually died, instead.

So in the West, there was no clear single idea what a knight was, as it depended upon region, ruler, order, period, and individual. But since the samurai part of the bushido code was a socially imposed ethos, it had a much greater and more consistent effect. This doesn't mean samurais were more honorable than their European or Arabic counterparts, but they were measured against a very traditional formula which sometimes worked, and sometimes didn't.

And even if they had a few fails, they still went on. Meanwhile, once a samurai broke his code, death was his atonement. As such, it would have encouraged a more revered status, and thereby making the samurai a much more responsible and disciplined person, than the Knight of English history.

Yes, the epic stories of samurai who were forced to break their codes to serve the cause of justice, and then committed seppuku in atonement. The 47 Ronin, which I referred to above, was such a tale. They're still inordinately popular. I remember reading somewhere that that story alone has been retold in more than 700 different versions, in a variety of media.

It is amazing what isolation can do though, just a comparision, Australia before the invasion of the Brittish, was simply made up of about 100 clans/tribes, all with different ideals, beliefs, and partially different languages. These tribes would trade with each other, but were mostly self sufficent, living off the land, each knowing the benefits of their area, such as the clan on the coast would know about fishing, while inland would know about hoarding water for dry seasons. Now look at Japan, which was discovered 150 years later, but they were far more advanced, even back when Australia was discovered they were still far more advanced.

Technologically advanced, certainly. I have to wonder what led the Japanese down that path, while the various Australian tribes remained on the level of hunter/gatherers or primitive agriculture. Was it climate, the absence of minerals, a forbidding topography that only gives up its resources with great effort? And what made the Japanese so intensely competitive, yet at the same time, so utterly loyal? Why did the feudal system stick so well in Japan, when the Danes (for example) never could get the hang of it, and fought hard for their proto-democracy?