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Regarding Robin Hood, I was referring to his actions, not his profession. I am sure he did not go around picking locks, disarming traps and the like. But he DEFINITELY stole from "the rich".

He DID have some thieving abilities such as the stealth and the climbing; this professional crossover is not reflected very well in D&D.

The closest thing would probably be a fighter/thief or, as you say, an archer (perhaps with some extra abilities). That would cover the stealth, at least....

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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

I thought you did a fine job representing Robin Hood. Rangers in PNP get climbing skills IIRC. Drakron, is this so? And, Rangers in BG2 as well as PNP get stealth, so I think this is one of the few cases where DND does a good job representing a hero's class.

Heh heh. I heard a great story once. 199-somehting. This couple were getting married and the wife-to-be wanted "the music from Robin Hood" played at her wedding, what with the release of the Kevin Costner movie (I'd be sorely p*ssed if my future wife was wooing over a movie star at my wedding).

You know what's coming next right? The Vicar, not being the most in-tune with modern life (low hippoints?) plays...

"Robin Hood, Robin Hood and his band of merry men,
Robin Hood, Robin Hood riding through the glen..."

Tears all round

Sorry, Chenjzen, but I think you're way off the mark with the CG alignment. I think a CG character in Athkatla would be so disgusted by the corrupt power of the Wizards, the slavers, and so sickened by Bodhi's guild that all these other evils would have to be addressed first. As an organization that actually mitigates some of these things, the ShadowThieves can be considered an unpleasant yet tolerable counterbalance. If your character has an Int and Wis that doesn't classify him as a moron, by Ch.6 he would see this.

On the OTHER HAND - I think it's quite naive to think that thieves target the rich. Burglars and muggers get $ where they can, i.e. from those they can overpower. This is evil (the strong shall take their place and rise obove the weak). However, even a Paladin will not slay a creature simply for being evil - they must be ENGAGED in evil acts. Goodness comes from protecting the weak from the predations of the strong. Having evil thoughts (i.e. joining the thieves guild so you can exploit those less powerful) does not warrant a death sentence - only close observation, maybe a warning or two.

Cutting a thief's hands off, as a punishment for ANY kind of thievery whatever the context, strikes me as an extreme lawful bent.

Chaotic good is a fun alignment - lets you separate evil from lawbreaking, a distinction which can bog down a paladin. Hence Robin Hood. Lets you give the kid you pickpockets you a break so he can fend off his mom's boyfriend nasty backhands. Give the harlots some coin so they can take a break from selling themselves. etc., etc.

BTW, Do you think that the mob of fanatics ready to burn Viconia at the stake are GOOD?

I looked at "goody" but its 30-something pages and that's too much history to assilimilate as a latecomer. Like seeing it near the top of the list though.

@GB- stop with the wedding songs. I'm gettin' misty!

"When making a glorius egg-dish of goodness some eggs must be broken .."

Minsc Human Male Ranger Chaotic Good .

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"There is no cure for my malady.This is the sacrifice,the price i paid for magic..."

Nice little ruckus raised. How perfectly Chaotic. My view of Chaotic Good is someone who is willing to do whatever it takes spread his version of good across the land. He/she is a strong individualist who is confident in their views of morality - they don't need society necessarily to tell them what is "legal" and "not legal". If this means circumventing government and laws, so be it. If this means using government and laws, so be it. If this means using evil folks so that they are accomplishing good things, so be it. The idea is that the agenda of "good" is pushed.
Chenjzen would be perfectly happy with wacking the Council of Six (he believes that the hard working folks of the country should know who the HECK is their leaders) and sitting himself upon the throne of power as a benevolent dictator, spreading his good rules and laws across the country - laws that would support strong individialism and free trade - by force if necessary.
I mean, c'mon guys, what is a good adventurer really doing? He's being what we call today a vigilante. He's taking justice into his own hands. This means he uses his moral compass, takes it down into dungeons or into the highest government offices (which usually end up running the dungeons in one way or the other) and KILLING evil. I'm not going around bumping Trolls on the head so that the cops can come get 'em. Same with the evil mage standing next to the Troll. He's a goner to.
AND, I don't see the point in standing idly by in a "reactionary" role to evil. This means you constantly give the evil guys the upper hand - let them plan out the traps and build up their forces. No WAY.
All the talk about disrupting order and structure misses the point. It's a MORAL question. If some dude is willing to take from other folks - their money, their lives, their freedom, whatever - then that dude needs to be taken down. He's wrong (I would never take anything from the honest folks) and I'm right. WOW, maybe all those "evil" merchants won't have to pay protection money any more - they can lower their prices and the poor can get more for their buck.
Talk all you want about disrupting things, you don't see a thieves guild in that Elven city do you? I betcha they kick butt in their town (though not enough sometimes - example Irenicus).
For those who would argue I shouldn't kill the thieves (SHADOW Thieves) because they "helped" me rescue Imoen - what a crock. They charged me up the wazzoo for something they aught to help me with for free if they had a decent bone in their body. It was a self-serving gesture. They used my sword arm and I basically got a boat ride with a warm vampire reception at the end of it - whoopee.
Tell you what ought to have been an option - to be able to go to them Radiant Heart guys and get some help there. But heck, you can't even ASK them for help.
And hey, I'm not without mercy. When I played the ruler of the Keep, I let the thief go who was robbing to get medicine for his wife. I even paid for the medicines. But folks who are obviously steeped in evil like the Shadow Thieves (remember I mentioned torture chambers, etc.) are not who I would put in the "rehabilitation" category. They deserve to be swimming in that fiery lake right along side Irenicus (he he).
And what makes any of you Shadow Thief advocates think they are any better than the slavers we get to wack in the game, huh? Their evil ways are above the law, hurting all the honest folks in society just as badly as slaving - heck it's not a stretch to say THEY WERE PROBABLY INVOLVED IN IT!

And please, those of you who invoke the "M" word (Murder for those of you in Rio Linda & Palm Beach County)in a game like D&D. Get real. Any cop who saw the kind of things that were going on the the Shadow Thieves lair would be tempted (not saying they would give in to the temptation) to put a bullet in the head of folks they ran into pulling that crud. Adventurers (except maybe them Lawful Good folks) are hardly under the kind of restraint a cop is.
**SPOILER**
And I betcha a lot of them Lawful Good folks went and wacked the Kolbods in the sewer for that spear (to get the sword Lilacor) - even though they don't attack unless attacked. Just because they were Kolbolds. Yep, I did it.
Robin Hood was Chaotic Good (at least in the movies). Dude's living in a forest, chillin' with the deer. He ain't got torture chambers set up for the Sheriff's deputies. No comparison.
And, for the folks who talked about priorities (like Bodhi, etc.) I need to mention AGAIN that wacking the Shadow Thieves was on my "last to do" list - short of killing Irenicus but only because that ends the game.

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.

I am not even try to reply....
But I am going to tell you this, do what you what but the Shadow Thives are not going to be destroyed by you or anybody else. They are important to the makers of the AD&D universe, so dont you think that because they are a "evil" organization they are going down, Remember Edwin, well he is from Tray and that place is one of the "evil" places on this sphere, and there is also the Zetherin that trys to take control of trade, wipe out the cousil of six and you are not going to see the next day, you would be dead the next morning, being killed by those guys and what will happen to Amn ?
And there is also the kinghts of the Shield that are controled by a outcast god, fanncy you chances with a god bound in the prime? they also will try to take Amn from thenselfs, there is also the Twisted Rune a bunch of Lich that want to take over Faerûn, well Amn after you sould be quite a good place to start and best of all my little friend, shoon the IV a very powerful demilich that is on the body of a Elf, well he wants to start his empire again and since you have remove the oposition, well that just leaves you.
Thank you for helping Amn, by the way there is a army in the south that is being run by two orge mages, that will be good news to that army, there is no longer a goverment in Amn, well next stop to that Army, Athkatla.
Yes, by doing that you just made things worst to the "people", I am sure that, before you die, they will thank you by puting you in jail for killing inocent poeple, I am sure that because they are "evil" those people deserve to die, even if you did not have any prove about any wrong doings in their part, the courts will that that "they are evil, trust me" under consideration.
That Happened because you fail to see what will happen if you destroy the bases of goverment, any type of goverment.


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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

AND for geh4th. The punks are wearing the colors, they pay the price. They know what they're getting into, it's not like they're joining a men's golf club - they're a gang. I'm no different from any other citzen who wants to eradicate the gangs - except I'm empowered to do so, and the law doesn't have the resouces to track down vigilantes (adventurers) in the DnD setting like in real life - so I'm more free to do so.
Nope, I didn't go into regular folks houses in the game and take their money. I stayed true to the Good in Chaotic Good. I DID help myself to the dough on the evil folks I wacked donated a lot of it to the Good temples and beggars on the street.
Pre-meditated murder? Murder implies that the folks killed are innocent of any wrongdoing. The Shadow Dudes are proudly displaying their allegience to an evil group - they are not innocent. If the results are no more torture chambers, innocent people getting robbed and pushed around, and total disregard for the fellow brother just trying to make it, then that's fine by me.

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.

Drakron, I'm willing to take on anyone wanting to fill the void and I'm not going to pansy out - in fact you can't predict the future and I could easily make an argument that by leading by example I could marshal a strong force of good folks who aren't afraid to tell evil where to go - straight to the nine hells. So, if you're not man enough to hang, go ahead and stand on the sidelines while someone tries to make a difference. As a matter of fact, (American Anthem starts playing in the background) if even just a FRACTION of the good adventurers out there who are wading around in remote dugeons would realize that the Trolls out there aren't as dangerous to their homes as the theives taking over the streets where their moma's live, THEN WE COULD TAKE THE CITY BACK FOR GOODNESS! LONG LIVE EVIL BUTT-KICKING!

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.

All thieve are not evil.

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"Boo says Weasel is the best"

Hey there Weasel. Evil is as evil does. That does not mean all thieves are evil.

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.

Sad. In your world, anyone that disagrees with your views are killed.

That's not CG.

Stereotypically speaking:
Hippies are CG
Anarchists are CE

You may be in between, but which direction are you leaning. Seems clear.

Exactly my point. Chenjzen, you condemn everyone who does not agree with YOUR view of what is "good". This is pure chaos, and nothing else.

You could never be a "benevolent dictator" by definition: rule requires law, and chaos cannot rule effectively, else society would disintegrate due to arbitrary "I've decided that this is what is 'good' today" type of dictates. You are an individual, undeniably chaotic, advancing your own goals at the expense of any who would stand in your way; all who would do so instantly become in your eyes "evil". Society would invariably regard your random acts of rule as detrimental, and in some cases evil, no matter your intentions.

We can continue to endlessly debate whether the act of wholesale slaughtering members of a thieves guild is for the good of the many, or an act of personally desiring to shed blood in the name of your percieved good. As I said, I would shed no tears for any member of the Shadow Thieves if they get killed while plying their "trade", especially any who are assassins.

I have a good outlook, simply less chaotic than yours, with more definable goals and reasoning to go along with them. Drakron points out that as an organization the Shadow Thieves (or replacements) cannot be completely eliminated. You would pursue this couse of action with the CERTAIN knowledge that it would ABSOLUTELY end up with you getting killed for it eventually (they DO have assassins, after all, and eventually one of them would get you, don't bother denying it or claiming that you are too powerful for that). Where, then, was your "good" cause advanced by your actions if you died while making NO appreciable change in the scheme of things?

Your intentions label you more than anything we say to each other: while I agree your intent is NOT evil, you are more Chaotic Neutral than any other alignment. You act without reason (according to society's view of reason, not yours) and act with only YOUR view of the way the world should be according to YOUR view. There ARE some out there who would consider you evil. This makes you a classic Chaotic Neutral.

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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

Something I missed until after sending that last post:

Chenjzen: you invoked a real-world comparison to this situation, about cops and the Shadow Thieves. You also stated that this is a "gang", and if "They wear the colors, they pay the price".

While I will not make the mistake of thinking that your views would be the same from a fantasy world to the real world, your statement brings to mind an very interesting question: "Gangs" of young thugs plague the inner cities of America, and many other places in the world. These gangs would be "evil" by alignment standards, because of their random acts of violence. Their members "wear the colors", as you say. There is no functional difference between these "gangs" and a typical fantasy thieves guild; same general type of organization, same motives (personal gain, power within the organization).

Should all members of these gangs be hunted down and KILLED for the greater good?

Using your reasoning for the motives of a Chaotic Good person, you imply that they should all be exterminated simply because they "waer the colors" (are members).

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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

I was saddened to hear him mention the American Anthem in association with the wanton bloodshed he suggested.

Good ideals, evil methods.

Originally posted by geh4th:
perceived good.

You have answered the whole argument right there.

Perceived

I wonder if Chenjzen has took the alignment test.

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"Boo says Weasel is the best"

Reminds me of Whitecloaks, for those of you who read Robert Jordan.

Rail: nope - I do not kill anyone who does not agree with my views. I kill, or use, or convert, anyone who is EVIL. I believe in absolutes - so if you don't we're going to continue to disagree (respectfully). And don't get sad, the American Anthem, Chenjzen, and Baldur's Gate 2 as painted by my words are all NOT REAL. You want to get sad? Look at how much in taxes they take out of your paycheck.

Aegnor: I saved the Drow woman. And I killed the fanatics in defense of the Drow and in defense of myself. It's wrong to kill anyone just because of their race (I know someone is smiling about that one and the earlier admission I made about the Kobolds). She was willing to hang with me so I thought it might be a good idea to let her and lead by example. And no, she was not an NPC I romanced.

geh4th: I am NOT certain that anyone will kill me - assassin or no. I happened to play the game when trying to kill the Shadow Thieves as a 50th level character (Heck, it's my game and my 3rd trip through). Nor do I pretend to be able to tell the future. Good folks genuinely do disagree on the method of coping with evil, and so I will respectfully disagree with you. I approach the game with more fervor than real life because it is an artifical structure - not completely thought out and imperfect - and use that fervor to play an Active role in battling evil. I take umbrage with someone saddling me with the Neutral moniker. In my mind, a neutral person believes in a balance of sorts with evil never reall being eradicated, and can also be very self-centered. This can keep them from becoming involved in a situation unless it achieves a perceived balance or something is in it for them. Not me. The money is not important and I played my character that way. I took the time to help all my NPC's and anyone else trapped by evil or bad circumstance, and thus I believe I made a positive impact on those around me - in fact both the chaotic's and the lawful's were practically giddy (not the Drow however) at my high popularity ratings - ratings not bought at a temple. And while you claimed you would not make the mistake of thinking my views are the same for the real world as they are for the fantasy world - you went on and made the mistake.

Weasel: I recognize that a being is limited by the method and mechanics of how they experience their surroundings. How else am I to know evil except by perceiving it? If I do not perceive anything, I cannot affect anything and will be unaware of all but myself. And by the very act of perception reason is employed to facilitate the recognition of design.
I took the Alignment test. If you give it any weight (I took it for fun, not to know who I am) I will tell you what the results were. I came out of it as Neutral Good.

geh4th: Dude I got to hand it to you, you give me plenty to respond to. So, I will say that you cannot say I act without reason. I have filled pages with thought-out reasoning. You may not AGREE with the reasoning, but it is reasoning nontheless. And the society argument - even in the simplistic DnD universe - is laughable. Have you noticed that the societal man thinks us adventurers are weird?

On the whole, it sounds like you guys have a hard time with the real differences between the DnD universe and ours. In ours, we have no way to judge others except by their words and actions. In this game universe - you can cast a low-level spell and know instantly who is evil. If you keep that in focus, I think you'll understand my viewpoints a little easier. It seems you want to apply the moral uncertainties of the real world to a universe that is a whole lot simpler than ours - even more so in the computer gamed-down version.

And I shall stop this sermon with the following facts about the Shadow Thieves:
1. Charged money to help me save someone's life.
2. Delayed me whilst Irenicus took over Spellhold and further tortured Imoen.
3. They actively murdered and stole from the innocent (and yes the guilty, but from the innocent as well).
4. Used me to get rid of the competition. What did they have to lose? They had invested nothing in me.
5. Pretended to help me while providing a minimum of manpower and only when it ultimately served their own interests (eliminating the competition and keeping an eye on this here Child of Bhaal).
These could all be gleaned WITHOUT the use of a spell - just a little reasoning and perception.

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.