Underworld from the point of view of the Camarilla, The Masquerade? Anyone?

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:17 am

And just another question. Based on the game, in the very beginning, it took about 2 hours for me to regain consciousness after the bite - if I remember correctly. In the “Kindred the Embraced” movie, victims were sometimes conscious during the whole process (Sasha – she looked shocked, but was able to walk with a help of other Brujah). What version is closer to the WW rules?

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:35 am

So why the sun light is so lethal (is it compatible with the White Wolf design)?

Because sunlight is something "godly". UV lights and other human made lights have no consequences for kainites.

And how much time does it takes for the sunlight to kill an average Kindred?

Totally depends on such things as Generation, stamina and the Discipline Fortitude. A vampire with a high stamina and Fortitude may have a few more seconds. A Vampire with a very high Generation ( 14 or 15 ) may withstand the sun for a longer period then someone of lower generation ( mere minutes maybe ).

Based on the game, in the very beginning, it took about 2 hours for me to regain consciousness after the bite - if I remember correctly. In the “Kindred the Embraced” movie, victims were sometimes conscious during the whole process (Sasha – she looked shocked, but was able to walk with a help of other Brujah). What version is closer to the WW rules?

Can be both...usually you won't stay concious cause you are dying...In the moment your heart stops to beat, you are fed a few drops of your sire's vitae ( blood ). Then it might take seconds or hours to be embraced.
So in the Kindred Movie/TV series, it's a bit to dramatic, she would be out for at least a few seconds.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:04 pm

Nice info coming thru here, thanks to all, hope it continues.

Ouch, that is harsh pennypincher!

So give me a pennypincher, Apperance 5?

Lucita
"plus 2 dots for each century of age ( for the first few centuries )"

I kinda like the idea of 2 dots per century, why only the first few centuries?

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:07 pm

Aye, I have to agree with that logic, considering the person must go past the stage of death to be Embraced, they must at some point black out... Their heart must stop pumping, they are likley totaly drained of blood (No blood in the brain = black out and death)... And there is a good chance their body would begin shut down due to truma as well.

However, it is also possable that when you sire fed you, you woke up after 5 mins and entered a nice long frenzy, in which time your sire fed you two hookers who we never see because the Sherif takes the bodies stashed under the bed and gets rid of them. I spose all sorts of things are possable.

As for the points Lucita, the Attributes and Talents okay, but starting Elder Vampires from the Elyisum book (400-500 years) only have ten dots to start... Thou then again, how many freebie points does one dot in "Age" net you again? 20? Thats 2 more discplines right there. I spose if we gave her literal points to spare I MIGHT be convinced... On pure rules and balance alone... To giver her a dot of Presence and another dot of Potence. Seeing as I already gave her a VERY kind 11 points, that brings her up to 13... I was just basing it on what I saw used in the movie. It would be hard for me to sit here and nod and agree that she had Presence 5 and just decided it wasn't worth using, or Obfuscate 3 and kinda forgot.

Lucita has, as always, answered the other questions beautifuly. It's the concept of The Light and the purity of the Sun that is deadly to vampires, not the scientific components that make up light. The Angels said "Walk forever in shadow" not "Avoid tanning saloons and wear SPF 30+". One blood point a night (Blood pools range from 10 in pathetic generations, right up to a hundred and more for the most acient of vampries) to stay Undead, one blood point to heal a wound, blood to act and look human when required, blood to activate some discplines (Celerity, Thurmaturgy, Obtenerbration...) and sometimes to uphold the Masquerade (Doesn't look to good to be shot five times and not bleed a drop, or to get smacked in the face by a baseball bat and come out looking like Fabio).

From a pure rules stand point regarding the sun and the time it takes to vaporise a vampire. A "Turn" is bewteen 1.5 and 3 seconds, the sun at noon on a naked vampire does about 8 points of damage that can only be absorbed with Fortitude... So usualy 5 points max... And requirs you to roll a 9 or a 10 on a ten sided dice. You have 7 health levels... So as you can imagine, in full sunlight, it takes a Vampire an average of about three to 6 seconds to burst into flames and become a pile of hollow nothing. Quick? Sure. Painless? You wish!

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:26 pm

[QUOTE=Acleacius]Nice info coming thru here, thanks to all, hope it continues.

Ouch, that is harsh pennypincher!

So give me a pennypincher, Apperance 5?

Lucita
"plus 2 dots for each century of age ( for the first few centuries )"

I kinda like the idea of 2 dots per century, why only the first few centuries?[/QUOTE]

Awww, I didn't mean to be harsh.

Here's my theory on these kinds of things.

Mortals posses stats bewteen 1-5. 1 is the person who is worst in all the world when it comes to attributes. A strength one person is a weak, scrawny little p***ant who can bearly lift their own weight, two an avergae person who can't kick down a door in one kick, but can help you push a car home, three a larger gent or lady who is in good shape and stronger then most, 4 is a weight lifter professional who could use their strength for a living and is one of the strongest people on earth... Five is THE strongest person on earth. It is impossable for anyone to be stronger then you, they just can't do it, you are THE best...

To that end, giving someone a five in something is a VERY big ask. This person isn't just good (3) they aren't just great (4) they are THE BEST (5). When it comes to things like Apperance, it's even MORE difficult to assign a five... After all, that means that basicly everyone on planet earth has to agree that you are the most beautiful person they know. The woman from that movie really isn't the most beautiful person I know... She just didn't make my jaw drop and have me dreaming of her for weeks to come. I've met women who've had me thinking of them for weeks and weeks, even if I don't know them... She wasn't one.

The same is true with attributes, 0 is untrained... You might not suck at it, but you just really don't know anything about it... A person fighting with Dex 4 and Brawl 0 is still good... They have natural talent, they just don't know the first thing about boxing or martial arts. Meanwhile, a person with 1 dot has some basic skills, natural or trained, 2 is a fully trained person, 3 is an expert in their field and likley saught after for speical tasks, 4 is a genius, maybe someone who created a new form of their own (Brawl: made their own martial arts, Repair: Created their own set of tools thats now world famous. Academics: Discovered and named their own mathmatical theory)... And five is THE BEST PERSON at that ability. You have to be a little old martial arts trainer who lives on a mountain and meditates all day on the body and the form and refuses to train anyone because your art form is too deadly... You are THE best... Unbeatable... Nobody can have more skill then you at this.

Vampires, of course, have different issues. When you have 300 years to read every book on medicine every written, compare them, and test all the theories on living human subjects, your understanding of medicine can surpass what a normal mortal would understand... Hence why some vampires can learn attributes and abilitys and Discplines at 6-10. After 500 years of speaking to mortals, conversation becomes like a script... You know exactly what to say and when to say it and just how to sound to recivie exactly the response you want... Hence your Manipulation 7 and your Subterfuge 6.

That leads us to the question of why the first few years, things come faster. The answer is a little bit two fold from my point of view.

1) The older Vampires get, the less interested in the world and things they become. Learning ANOTHER dot of Presence and reading ANOTHER book on astrology might seem a little meaningless when you can already command the city with a thought and you know the name of all the stars and can tell when one has vanished from the night sky. The more jaded and mired in age they become, the less they seek out new things, and the more things leave them behind... Your computer skill of 5 was prolly GREAT for your C64, but things have changed and you havent... Learning the new skill can be hard, and seem pointless... Afterall, things will only change again.

2) The higher up the tree you go, the more difficult things become to learn (Reflected by higher XP costs and learning time)... Having someone teach you a few words of German so you can ask where the toilet is and if someone speaks English is easy... Learning how to hold a conversation, that might take a few weeks or months... Learning the entier language and speaking it like a native, that could take a year or more... Imagine how long the things vampires need to learn could take. If it takes you 5 years to learn Empathy 5... How long will it take you to learn things about empathy no human can know? Theres no books on it, no tv shows, nobody you can ask... You basicly have to create all new theories and test them over and over and find a brand new empathy... Some people don't achive that in their LIFETIME! 50 years to learn a skill at 6? Not an unreasonable ask... 100 years to learn it at 7? Just a drop in the ocean for a Vampire.

... Now imagine how long the learning times must be for Discplines! How DO you learn Fortitude 5? Stand in front of the 9:15 train to St Loius and if you live, you're learning?? Heck, how would you even know when you HAD learnt it? The train hurts less? Do you test it out by putting your arm into sunlight? NO THANKS!.

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:37 pm

I think the Elysium Rules are more stricter then the ones they presented in Children of the Damned, which I took as granted for my presentation.

Maybe we should compare her a bit with the "real" Lucita stats, as Selene seems to be quite an active hunter type and is about the same age:

Lucity y Aragon

Clan: Lasombra antitribu
Sire: Ambrosio Luis Moncada
Nature: Rebel
Demeanor: Defender
Generation: 7th
Embrace: 1190
Apparent Age: Early 20s
Physical: Strength 5, Dexterity 4, Stamina 5
Social: Charisma 4, Manipulation 3, Appearance 4
Mental: Percetion 4, Intelligence 3, Wits 5

Talents: Alertness 2, Brawl 5, Dodge 4, Empathy 2, Expression 2, Grace 3, Intimidation 1, Leadership 4, Streetwise 1, Style 4, Subterfuge 4

Skills: Archery 2, Drive 2, Etiquette 4, Melee 4, Performance 3, Ride 2, Security 1, Stealth 4

Knowledges: Academics 3, Camarilla Lore 3, Investigation 3, Linguistics 5, Occult 4, Politics 3, Sabbat Lore 3

Disciplines: Animalism 2, Celerity 3, Dominate 5, Fortitude 4, Obfuscate 3, Obtenenbration 6, Potence 3, Protean 2, Serpentis 1

Background: Allies 2, Contacts 5, Herd 2, Influence 2, Resources 5, Sabbat Status 1, Status 1
Virtues: Conscience 3, Self Control 3, Courage 4
Morality: Humanity 4
Willpower: 7

So Lucita has 37 points in Abilities and 29 points in Disciplines.

( from the Transylvania Chronicles IV Book )

I took her as an example for my first Selene stats.

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:45 pm

Yeah pennypincher I know the stats seems to inflate sometimes...

For everyone:

Stats 101: A 1 is below average, a 2 is the human average ( yep most of us ), a 3 is outstanding ( an athlete, a pop star, a movie star and so on ), 4 is human's peak ( Olympic Athletes, Nobel price winners ).

Having a 5 in something is above human, it may take centuries to perfect a 5 in skills, only very exceptional humans might reach a 5, Einstein, Mozart maybe. ( i.e. Melee 5, you are better then any martial artist; Firearms 5, Hello SEALs I can shot better then you guys; Performance 5, Hello Hollywood, just give me the Oscars next year....all of them ).

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:51 am

" Awww, I didn't mean to be harsh."

Hehe , well I was joking of course, I thought I saw you have her as a 2.

Well you should consider seeing it when it comes on DvD if you have the time or intrest, just her nude sceens are worth the DvD rental, but to each his own taste in tasty women.

I realise you did not see the 2nd moive (if I recall) which obviously does show more character, if I am allowed to say that about an action movie.

I wont spoil the movie which explains somethings Lucita wrote, too.

I do still hope someone talks more about the 1 or 2 points per century.

" Mortals posses stats bewteen 1-5"
I didn't realise a 5 meant you had to be the best, as in best on the planet and thought 6 was possible close to godlyness, but not sure looks like you are saying mortals, when I mean vamps?

I may have to rewatch the first moive, cause recall her with a higher humanity.
I notice many situations where she seems not to be manpulated by elders (though they seem to be trying), believe it is her choice is not to manipulate others and seems to try to protect mortals, thou maybe I am confused.

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:07 am

About generations. From the game I remember : “If you are from the 5th generation, your blood is strong, if you are from the 50th, you can barely qualify as a vampire”.

If they are worrying about the Caitiffs, isn’t it more logical to give a right of siring to the eldest vampires only?

So what about Jack, Prince, what generations are they ?

Prince was not strong at all, I played all endings, he did not resist when I cut his throat, and did not try to fight Kei-Jin. Why?

Whats about the ghouls? Don’t they violate the Masquerade? And the guy “vandal” in the Blood bank – based on the Camarilla law, he must be killed !

Another question. What did LaCroix expected to find in the sarcophagus? Yes, I know, an older vampire. But in what state? In a hibernation, like in the Underworld? In that case, there is almost no blood in it! He could reanimate the elder, give him fresh blood, but in that case the awaken elder would be no match for him - he would kill LaCroix

[QUOTE=pennypincher]
1) The older Vampires get, the less interested in the world and things they become. [/QUOTE]

Good point.
I guess Selene should be very confused with computers and other high-tech stuff. Even with driving a car

P.S.
As Lucita apparently does not want to watch the movie, I can give her a spoiler. In the second movie she has diabelized her grand-grand-sire, so I believe she has improved her stats. She even got some resistance to the sunlight. But she is only 600, not 800 years old.

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:31 am

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:37 am

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:47 am

Dots, please put everything you want in a single post, rather than successive posts. You can use the EDIT button to change your first one. Multiple posts comes across like postfarming, whether intended or not. Thanks.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:12 am

dots67 wrote:About generations. From the game I remember : “If you are from the 5th generation, your blood is strong, if you are from the 50th, you can barely qualify as a vampire”.

If they are worrying about the Caitiffs, isn’t it more logical to give a right of siring to the eldest vampires only?

So what about Jack, Prince, what generations are they ?

Prince was not strong at all, I played all endings, he did not resist when I cut his throat, and did not try to fight Kei-Jin. Why?

Yes, it makes sense that only the most potent vampires should be allowed to create vampires... However, imagine that your a younger vampire, and your master tells you that you can NEVER make another vampire.

Always alone.
Can never have a power base of loyal childe.
Will never be able to garner status through your childes actions.

Suffice to say, the younger generations would go Through The Roof!! This is, in part, the reason why many Clanless Vampires get made in the first place... A moment of passion, a wrong choice, lonleyness.. But you know your elders will kill you and the childe, so you leave it and run away... Hey pretso, Cattiff... EVERYWHERE...

I don't know why the Prince doesn't fight back, I assume because you beat the police, the sherif, the Kindred of the East, and now you've come for him and his Dominate just wont work... He likley gives up in sorrow and disgust. He doesn't fight his own battles because, like all Venture, he has someone who can do it for him, so he doesn't have to risk his neck.

Whats about the ghouls? Don’t they violate the Masquerade? And the guy “vandal” in the Blood bank – based on the Camarilla law, he must be killed !

Ghouls are a close call. Some cities demand that you present and request permission to create a ghoul, others view it as "If you have them present long enough to pour a point of blood down their throat, you can take care of them if they get out of hand." Obviously, most Ghouls are aware of vampires (Some aren't, they just get the "Speical drugs" once a month) and because of their undying love (Blood Bond) they will NEVER give up the secret. You can burn the truth out of a mortal, but anyone whos blood bound is loyal Beyond Death! Nothing will make a ghoul betray it's master, even Dominate has been known to fail.

The guy at the Blood Bank might BE a ghoul... Likley working for some vampire who garners favours by giving out the red juice to Kindred in desperation... Or he might just be a well paied idiot. Either way, he is likley sufficently underthumb that he isn't a risk to the Masquerade... In fact, given one of the conversation options with him, I think he is likley well paied and kept in place with a healthy dose of what Kindred do best... Fear!

Another question. What did LaCroix expected to find in the sarcophagus? Yes, I know, an older vampire. But in what state? In a hibernation, like in the Underworld? In that case, there is almost no blood in it! He could reanimate the elder, give him fresh blood, but in that case the awaken elder would be no match for him - he would kill LaCroix

He really really really really REALLY hoped there might be an Antedeluvian in there... One of the Vampires who founded the great clans... So acient and powerful that they can rule the world from their slumber (Torpor) and control vampires actions in an acient war against each other called The Jyhad. No doubt LaCroix hoped he could drain the vampire of their soul and power and become as strong as the acients... Or bargin the elder off to some soul or another for even more power...

Good point.
I guess Selene should be very confused with computers and other high-tech stuff. Even with driving a car

P.S.
As Lucita apparently does not want to watch the movie, I can give her a spoiler. In the second movie she has diabelized her grand-grand-sire, so I believe she has improved her stats. She even got some resistance to the sunlight. But she is only 600, not 800 years old.

Well, as you said, Underworld isn't Vampire: The Masquerade, so maybe in underworld vampires are just the same as people and keep up with modern technology more easily... Don't find themselves becoming jaded by the constantly changing world...

Oh, and Acleacius:

Vampires attributes and abilitys only stretch from 1-5 as well, they are as limited as mortals... There are however ways around this for them.

1) They can spend a blood to increase their physical stats by 1 for a scene. This means they can increase them to 6 - 10. At the end of the scene (Or sooner) they drop back to their original state... But this does mean vampires can spend a little blood to crush their enemies with inhuman strength, amazing relfexes and speed, or by just ignoring things that are done to them.

2) Vampires whos blood is strong (7th or better generation) become less and less human and more and more supernatural as they age. It becomes possable for all their attributes and abilitys to go over 5 and remain there forever. This means Elder vampires are God like in many regards... While the strongest man on earth (5) may be able to pull a train with ropes attached to him, the most meger of the Elders might be able to pull it with one hand by the grill..

dots67 · Post by **dots67** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:17 pm

[QUOTE=pennypincher]
1
But you know your elders will kill you and the childe, so you leave it and run away...

2
The guy at the Blood Bank might BE a ghoul... [/QUOTE]

1 It does not make sense. Sure, the number of kindred must be balanced with the number of mortals. Lets say the the optimum for LA is 1000 kindred. If there are 1100, then making another one is a risk. Then just kill a childe, what's the problem? Why sacrifice an old blood? If the number of Kindred is less then an optimum, then I dont see a problem at all..

And Caitiff... If they all were a result of an illegal embrace... Remember guys on the beach in Santa Monica? The Camarilla law did not care about them. Only Velvet V asked to kill one of them... What's about Lilly and E. ("vampires in love")?

2
He IS a ghoul - of Lilly. She was locked in a room and tied to a chair, and he drank her blood... remember?

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:23 pm

actually, i think the guy in the bloodbank was therese's ghoul as he refers to her when you talk to him to begin with to get entry to the back of the bloodbank. lilly's blood was being used to fill bloodpacks which could then be bought from the ghoul - he was not necessarily drinking it himself, which is why one of the options after rescuing her is to go to the asylum and find a human girl to replace lilly as the blood donor.

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:28 pm

[QUOTE=dots67]1 It does not make sense. Sure, the number of kindred must be balanced with the number of mortals. Lets say the the optimum for LA is 1000 kindred. If there are 1100, then making another one is a risk. Then just kill a childe, what's the problem? Why sacrifice an old blood? If the number of Kindred is less then an optimum, then I dont see a problem at all..
[/QUOTE]

It's even less....One Kindred per 100000 humans is the norm, in Sabbat controlled territory it's usually 1 per 50000.

Confuzzled · Post by **Confuzzled** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:06 am

The guy at the Blood Bank might BE a ghoul

My impression from the dialogue was that he certainly is a ghoul. Not absolutely clear-cut, but he has links with Therese, and if you try seduction on him he turns it down, blaming that for him being in this situation anyway. Sounds like someone who has ended up doing something he didn't want, and if it was seduction by a vampire, what else other than being made a ghoul?

And he has the yellow eyes of course (although the game doesn't seem to always use that consistently).

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:43 am

dots67 wrote:1 It does not make sense. Sure, the number of kindred must be balanced with the number of mortals. Lets say the the optimum for LA is 1000 kindred. If there are 1100, then making another one is a risk. Then just kill a childe, what's the problem? Why sacrifice an old blood? If the number of Kindred is less then an optimum, then I dont see a problem at all..

That one makes sense from a political and power point of view. If making a childe just gets the childe killed, theres no reason not to make one willy nilly... If the worst that happens is a slap on the wrist and a dead vampire, big deal. If, however, your head is on the line... God forbid!! Most Kindred laws have only a few outcomes... Blood Bond, Exile, Debt or Death.

Also, this is a FANTASTIC way to get rid of your enemies and create power vacumes and such. Lets face it, Bob the Elder is never going to step down as Keeper Of Elyisum, however if someone were to find out that his childe Susan was created before persmission was obtained... Pow, one less enemy, one less keeper and a spot you can fill. Yummy.

And Caitiff... If they all were a result of an illegal embrace... Remember guys on the beach in Santa Monica? The Camarilla law did not care about them. Only Velvet V asked to kill one of them... What's about Lilly and E. ("vampires in love")?

Some, very rare Caitiff are created because blood is just too weak to hold any sign of clan linage, but yes, most Caitiff are made by illegal Embraces gone wrong... Which is why VV can have them killed if she wants, and why they keep getting chased off beaches with death threats, and why you can pretty much do with them as you like... They aren't protected by Cammerilla law, so you can kill, use maime, torment, imprision, threaten and bond them all you like. Most vampires wont kill a Caitiff on sight for no good reason because:

1) The Cammerilla doesn't want a bad name with the clanless vampires it has in it's ranks... It wants them to play along and be good kiddies and obey.

2) You are breeching the law when you kill another vampire without the princes permission, even as you are upholding the law by killing clanless, illegaly sired vampires. If the prince likes you or doesn't find out, you're in the clear... If he or someone in power has reason NOT to like you.. Well, suffice to say that "Killing a clanless scum vampire for the good of the cammerilla" can quickly be re-worded as "Killing a vampire".

3) You never know when one of them is going to go all Chuck Norris on you and turn out to have been Embraced 500 years ago, or suddenly whip out several new fangled explosives and blow you to high hell... Frankly, theres no reason to kill another vampire if you don't have to, because it just risks your neck... Heck, what if they get away and come back with a blood hungry pack of Diablorists??

4) You just don't know whos toes your stepping on. Sammy the most acient and powerful vampire on earth may have made Misty a vampire in a fit of passion and realised his mistake, but he may also still love Misty and watch over her... Heaven help the Vampire who kills a Catiff who turns out to have an important sire who was secretly tracking their progress, or who turns out to be a Tremere experiment sanctioned by the Prince... Or heck, just turns out to be a local, offical Kindred who you've never seen before!!

2
He IS a ghoul - of Lilly. She was locked in a room and tied to a chair, and he drank her blood... remember?

I don't think he was drinking her blood, if he was he would be blood bound and forced to obey her and want nothing more then to free her... But latter posters point out he was maybe the Malakavians ghoul. Makes sense... I didn't want to say for sure he was or wasn't beacuse the only evidence I remembered was the character saying "It's been a while since I tried ghoul blood"... And honestly, what the hell would your 1 night old whelp vampire character know about how to spot a ghoul? Cripes, he didn't even know how to MAKE one.

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:01 pm

I'm about 99% sure Vandal (the guy in the Blood bank) is Therese's ghoul.
- there is more than one oblique and some not so oblique references to him being a ghoul of a female vampire
- if he is a ghoul, then there are no other candidates as master: Bertram & the Prince are male and I doubt a Vampire from outside Santa Monica, besides the prince, would encroach on their territory and certainly not place a ghoul in such a stationary post/function, where he can easily be tracked down and neutralised.
- he knows of vampires, he even has one in the closet: how long would a non-ghoul human survive in that situation?
- he is clearly a few cards short of a full deck, which might point to a Malkavian connection (he might have gotten crazy(-ier) through the blood, or that's what might have attracted the Malk to him).

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:20 pm

Also in dialgue files, if you are a Ventrue it is the only way to have him be nice/respect you.
Where he is Annoyed by the PC asking how much, the Ventrue has a different effect.
I never played a Ventrue, not really my style, but I would almost bet a Ventrue could Seduce/Persuace him, I never did look it up in Vandal's Vandal.dlg file.

So the Malk/Vent conflict in Therese/Jennette certianly would explain Vandal's weirdness and there is no doubt, at least to me, he is a ghoul.