Class Selection

[rbeverjr]

[QUOTE=Berethor]Mostly true, but I thought we were talking about Fighters/Monks, not Barbarians/Fighters/Monks . [/QUOTE]
It's about equipment and special ability selection. Fighters, particularly berserkers, can be similar to the barbarian. They will have a little less HP and 20% less resistance to physical damage, but MR is the same.

[QUOTE=Berethor]ANYways about the CF's stun..In case you didn't know, the Monk has an ability called Stunning Blow. It's not as useful as the CF, but still good. And don't forget, the Monk can use the CF and some other weapons you mentioned too. [/QUOTE]
I knew that monks have a stunning attack, which I agree is less useful than CF. Monks can use weapons, but at a reduced THACO compared to fighters (which may not be a big deal at very high levels). Does their attack rate decrease with weapons from what is allowed using fists?

[QUOTE=Berethor]And what I was saying was that we are comparing Fighters who can't cast spells, and therefore the Fighter wouldn't be able to cast Improved Haste on himself without Bracers of Blinding Strike, and again, the Monk can do the same.[/QUOTE]
I'm not interested in player vs player matches, but what is more effective in the game. Most people will play with a team and that team will have a mage. That mage could cast Improved Haste.

[QUOTE=Berethor]I don't think I was too off about the damage per round, assuming the Monk and Fighter both hit with all attacks. And you can consider that good for a Fighter, as it takes the Monk 2 more hits to do between 10-20 damage more.[/QUOTE]
What I am saying is that the situation is much more complicated than you are indicating. The dual wielding fighter gets around 4.5 attacks/rd using Belm if I recall. How many did you say the monk gets? OK add 1 if the team mage hastes or add another 4.5 if Improved Haste. Even if the monk and fighter are both whirlwinding, then it is still 10 attacks each - the monk may never have more attacks except for mook battles. Now you have to factor in effects. When does the foe become stunned if using CF or slowed if using FoA or etc. (depending on the uber weapon used). Even Soul Reaver can be pretty potent in such battles. If you are interested in one-on-one battles, just equip both monk and fighter as best you can and have them go at it at various levels. See who wins the most matches then.

Lastly, I am not saying monks are bad. I believe that an expert can take any character class and use them effectively - including bards. It's just that I think the fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian classes generally offer more for a team. This bias comes at least partially because I face some of the toughest battles in the game at very low levels.

[Berethor]

[QUOTE=rbeverjr]Lastly, I am not saying monks are bad. I believe that an expert can take any character class and use them effectively - including bards. It's just that I think the fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian classes generally offer more for a team. This bias comes at least partially because I face some of the toughest battles in the game at very low levels.[/QUOTE]

I know, I was just making some points. I mean, c'mon, you gotta admit, for a guy that uses his fists and not some uber murder-all weapons like Fighters he's pretty damn good .

[rbeverjr]

Thanks for your input Berethor. I know that some people of old really swore by the monk. I hope other people will also voice their opinions concerning monks, bards, or any other class.

[Berethor]

No problem, I have to back up my friend of Asian decent lol . Maybe you should put some points that I sait that made sense:speech: in your description of the Monk, and maybe give him some more credit. He can hold his own.

[rbeverjr]

As I have noticed that this post has been looked at a few times, I want to post an update. I don't want to lead new players the wrong way. Concerning the arcane users: although both wizard and sorcerers are good, I previously indicated that I preferred Edwin. However, I now prefer sorcerers to wizards, with the possible exception of the wild mage, when I am particularly concerned about having the most powerful character or team. New players may still be better off consulting XyX's spell guide and either playing a wizard or using the Edwin-Keldorn team (with Happy patch) until they are confident in their ability to make the best spell choices.

Once again: Although there may be debate concerning whether the wild mage or the sorcerer is best, the consensus of the expert players is that the sorcerer is more powerful than other wizards.

Concerning fighters: Although once I preferred the kensai over the barbarian, I think I would flip that order now. I like to be able to use all the game’s equipment and don’t like having to cast Spirit Armor all the time. Eventually, you can make the barbarian virtually invulnerable to physical harm, highly resistant to most sources of magical damage, and immune to most magics through his rage. Both classes make good fighters, of course.

There’s a mod available that allows a fighter kit called Morituri. This fighter is the best fighter once he starts gets a Greater Whirlwind HLAs. Before that, I personally prefer other fighter types. At very high level (L35), the morituri becomes very twinky, but he is still only a fighter.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

hmm regarding Monks they are very powerfull, indeed one of the most powerfull single class tanks.

In terms of raw tanking power he dealt a bit more damage than a properly equiped Korgan, but he had the benefit of being immune to magic, and having uber low saving-throws. The nice thing is he can match any tank for damage and surviveability, but he needs alot less equipment so others on the team can make use of it.

His only real disadvantage is an inability to become hasted, which is easly remedied by 5+ GWW's

as far as Bards go, well they have many cheesy options available later on which is their only strenght. But you can play one have fun and he will actually become powerfull, but most of Shadows of Amn is a chore compared to a fighter/mage and a Mage/Thief will be better anyway due to various high level spells as well as the cheesy UAI

[Onkel Bob]

as far as Bards go, well they have many cheesy options available later on which is their only strenght. But you can play one have fun and he will actually become powerfull, but most of Shadows of Amn is a chore compared to a fighter/mage and a Mage/Thief will be better anyway due to various high level spells as well as the cheesy UAI

As usual we disagree...

[rbeverjr]

@Jedi: You made some contentions about the monk, but I see no numbers to support them. Someone (death-caster) beat Ascension using a solo berserker - on Insane. Can a monk do that too? (A monk has made it on Core.)

Bards have one nifty cheese trick that the fighter-mage does not, mislead/clones with enhanced bard songs stacking. (I think they stack.) I don't approve of such cheese. Other than that, bards just seem like inferior fighter-mages to me. However, bard-lovers feel free to defend him.

I think pretty much every class has soloed the game. Also, you should play what you want regardless of all arguments towards relative power. That's the fun of role playing. And an expert player simply doesn't need extra power to beat this game. But new-comers may want the more powerful characters until they learn the game.

[Lonelypilgrim]

Since i haven't been to ToB yet i can only speak on SoA..and since we're in the SoA forum, heh.

So, about bards. Never played a pure bard, but trying out a Blade right now. Even somewhere in mid-game the Blade gets a unpiercable AC of ~20. Defencive spin in conjuction with the Bard armor that allows to cast spells ( dont remember the name). Thus you can have a 20 AC tank with stoneskin, mirror image and some globes. Magic Resistance can be buffed up by Amulet of Power and other jewelry. Rather decent imo, far better than any fighter can achieve in SoA.

Also, the bard gets a high pickpocket ability, even with the 1/2 pickpocket value of a Blade. This can save some skill points from the main thief. The high Lore can save time as it almost never fails.

But isn't it true that you can put on the boots of hastly retreat (?) that buffs the AC by 7 and saving throws aswell? All that for not being able to cast spells and attack! So a Blade can tank with oh, about 25 AC and sing improved Bard song at the same time. Also the boots overrule the defencive spins rooted to the ground thing.

A blade can put 2 slots into short swords and 3 into two weapon fighting, so don't have to worry about thac0.

Never tried a main Blade either. But the blade in my team atm is Haer Dalis and he has considerable slashing and all sorts of physical resists as a tiefling.

In conclusion, like i said, never been to ToB, dont know how it goes over there.

[rbeverjr]

Even somewhere in mid-game the Blade gets a unpiercable AC of ~20.

Someone hit the AC cap with their bard, but you still sometimes get hit, particularly in ToB or with difficult mods. I find it more important to destroy the opposition quickly. Sometimes, a simple wand of monster summoning can be an effective "tank." Before the enemy has dealt with these "bunnies," they're dead.

There's a number of ways to defeat the defensive spin liability. All of them seem like cheese to me and out of the spirit of the kit. The blade is supposed to be stuck there like a fencer doing his incredible defensive array. But that's just me.

I think that the THACO, saves, and HP of a bard is less than the fighter, and fighters do more for my team early in SoA than a bard. Later on the bard can become useful. AC at the cap, decent THACO, stat killing with the Chaos blade, magical defenses, etc. That's all nice. Personally, I think he's always inferior to the fighter-mage though.

I have no doubt that bards can be used effectively by good players, but I doubt that they are the best choice for beginners.

[Onkel Bob]

I have no doubt that bards can be used effectively by good players, but I doubt that they are the best choice for beginners.

True. But easy to use for beginners does not equal powerful at least not in my definition. If ease of use was the criteria I'd say that a barbarian or berserker was probably the most powerful class ever... That's not how I feel although I do feel that both are exceedingly good tanks.

In my game tanks aren't meant to deal a lot of damage that's not the point of them. They have to be good at taking it and they have to be good at not being turned against me. The last part is something that the two classes that rage do really well. And of course the barbarian is good at taking damage without dying too since he can take more than anyone else.

But about the bard: One thing I feel the people not liking bards forgot to mention: The bard will always be casting spells as of a higher level than wizards. And this is especially true if you compare him to F/M's. It makes a difference to me at least.

[rbeverjr]

But about the bard: One thing I feel the people not liking bards forgot to mention: The bard will always be casting spells as of a higher level than wizards. And this is especially true if you compare him to F/M's. It makes a difference to me at least.

I'm really surprised that anyone is trying to favorably compare a bard to a fighter-mage. So, you're casting as a higher level wizard than the FM. That's nice but usually doesn't make a big difference. When the FM loses his last stoneskin, he casts the spell again (and rests when that's his last spell). The bard does a little more damage on the combat's initial fireball. The FM doesn't care, because he's using the staff of fire and conserving those spell slots for other things. Etc. Conversely, a higher level spell slot can make a lot of difference. When does the bard receive the level 7+ arcane spells? Scrolls just aren't the same thing as cloning and casting chain contingency during battle.

On a side note, I find it curious that your tanks are nothing more than defensive blocks. I suppose that strategy will work, but I just get more pleasure knowing that each member of my party can contribute to the offense. And with the really challenging mods, it is difficult to be invulnerable. You need to dish out damage. At least, that's my take.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

So many replies so little time .

Ok for starters I don't play the game with a calculator on hand. I Played the Monk all the way to Amkathran, and he was simply superior to Korgan, which was my best tank at the time.

Korgan had a pretty standard setup: Gaunlets of extrordinary specialization, Axe of Unyielding/Crom, the best full plate available to me ect ect. both My Monk and Korgan had the best things I could buy loot or steal well I didn't steal much

As for results, I don't have a calculator to really number crunch but a Monk does 1D20 + whatever he gets from STR, striking as a +4 weapon which is alot. Subjectively speaking he did could kill a Fire Giant faster than Korgan could, ran almost as fast as the Dwarf (though I'm told the monk is actually faster ????) But he had an advantage in every single fight where nukes were being tossed around or any other nasty spells. Oh and He definitly Had a much higher AC. In ToB it probably doesn't matter but I'm guessing they were hitting my monk on maybe a 4 or 5 or higher, whereas Korgan was hit on anything but a 1

Now as for Bards; IIRC the song stacking bug was fixed by Baldurdash, and maybe even by the patch alone. He can use any item and set traps which is arguably what alot of his skill is based on. Sure with UAI he can do alot but Battle preperations take forever.

With a F/M you could for example do CC 3x project image upon seeing enemy, then have the clones do it as well. The result: 6 expendable tanks (THAC0 in the -teens) with GWW and say Ravager Halberd, Staff of Ram, or even any decent weapon.
If done with optimized cheese have them cast PW: kill on the F/M who has a spell trap and his Chain contingencies as well as his "Project Image" spells are restored. I'm not even sure how many times you can repeat this

The Bard is good as a support nuker (high level fireballs and Skull traps compared to even a Sorceror, but then again there are many better nukes which a Bard has no access to. Dragon breath and Abu Dazim's come to mind) and he has access to UAI and Traps which makes for some decent cheese as well. The negative side here is that it takes him a while to become powerfull, much longer than a fighter/mage.

In summary; he is a valid roleplaying choice, can comlpement any party and he will carry his weight eventually, (or is somebody going to argue that they simply outclass everybody straight out of the chateau ??) he is hardly the uber-powered killing machine that some make him out to be.

Just my 2 coppers worth feel free to disagree, but I've tried a Bard almost to the tree of life, where I already had some (HLA's 3.5 million exp or so) the only time he was powerfull was when I had the battle planned out like clockwork and really utilized every drop of power he had. Even then he wasn't really "uber"

Tank: linear power curve up untill level approx. 25
Sorceror: Exponential power curve skyrockets with HLA's
Bard: Slower exponential power curve than a Sorceror in the beginning, and lower max power as well

[rbeverjr]

I Played the Monk all the way to Amkathran, and he was simply superior to Korgan, which was my best tank at the time.

I edited my characters to monk and berserker, each with 5 million XP and with the same stats (19 str, 18 con, 18 dex, 10 in others). When I equip a monk and berserker the best I know how with Shadow Keeper and have them fight, both using and not using their high level abilities and monk abilities, the berserker typically wins. Celestial Fury (CF) stuns the monk and then the monk dies. This is a disadvantage of using the monk - I want to use the uber weapons. I know the monk could use CF too, but he will have 1 attack/rd unless whirlwinding. Some mod monsters have great resistance to physical damage, and a melee guy needs a vorpal weapon (sometimes), stat draining weapon, or level draining weapon to kill them. My biggest complaint against the monk is he is a late bloomer. I have already completed some of the most difficult fights of SoA before he really becomes good.

At high level the monk is a good fighter. The fact that he sometimes beat the berserker is proof of that. The Magic Resistance that the monk has is beneficial and certainly desirable, but not absolutely necessary. I've heard that Quivering Palm works a surprising amount of time even in ToB. A monk may be worthwhile for a change of pace in a ToB only run. All things considered though, I still favor the fighter. If a berserker can make it through Ascension solo on Insane, I suspect that he is tough enough.

If you like monks, there are mods that give them twinky HLAs, making them even better to power players - seems a bit much to me.

New topic: Remember that damaging spells often have a cap. The fireball of a 10th level mage does 10d6, as does the fireball of a 30th level mage or bard.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Well to each his own . Don't get me wrong I like all melee classes for their simplicity and effectiveness. It would be hard to play this game with out a few tanks.

I believe you when you say a Berserker will win vs a Monk their are many nice overpowered weapons. With GWW, statisticlly speaking your going to roll a 1 at least once every two rounds, now since I can't KO a fighter in only two rounds the Berserker has the advantage (Stun = dead).

Baldurs gate is however a single player game, and the Monks magic resistance, which is alot higher than a Berserker can ever get in the unmodded game (patches + fixpack only), is simply priceless. Many many fights were made alot easier simply because I could use my Monk to take most of the deadly offensive magic head on.

I will strongly disagree with you when you say he is a late bloomer. This is true only up untill level 15 or so. While still level below level 10 he is alot weaker than Korgan but after that he can hold is own quite nicely. The advantage is also that you can use the good equipment to boost others an not just keep it all to yourself

I'm not going to argue against fighters anymore simply because I love Korgan

[rbeverjr]

@ Jedi

Not argue - discuss

Late bloomers: Level 15?! I want TOUGH characters by level 10. Before I am level 14, I will have collected the ring of G, SoM, CF, FoA, Carso. and Belm. (Abbreviations used to prevent spoilers) If the character can't help a lot in these endeavors, he can sit at home.

[galraen]

What tends to distort Monk vs Any other class is the way Black Isle modified quivering palm. They both strengthened it and weakened it.

They strengthened it by making it too readily available, it should only be usable once a week. Also they changed the way it works, instead of readying it, and then having to successfully touch the target within 3 rounds or lose it for a week, they made it very simple to use.

However they weakened it by giving the victim a saving throw, which (unless the victim is wearing a scarab of protection), he/she/it shouldn't get.

Correct QP rules:

1)It can be attempted but once per week,and the monk must touch the intended victim within 3 melee rounds or the power is drained for one week.
2) It has no effect on the undead or creatures which can only be hit with magical weaponry.
3)The victim cannot have more hit dice than the monk using the power,and in any event,the total hit points of the victim cannot exceed those of the monk by more than 200%,or the power has no effect.
4)The command to die(the control of the vibrations) must be given by the monk within a set time limit,or else the vibrations simply cease on their own accord and do no damage whatsoever.The time limit of the death command is one day per level of experience the monk has gained at the time the power is used.

[rbeverjr]

The victim cannot have more hit dice than the monk using the power,and in any event,the total hit points of the victim cannot exceed those of the monk by more than 200%,or the power has no effect.

With a once a week ability, I would expect it to work on monsters with more HD than me. After all, those are the ones that matter! What amazes me is the number of times people have reported that QP works on ToB dragons.

[Crenshinibon]

First of all I'd like to state that I view the Bard... a Blade in particular, as superior to the Fighter/Mage. One might actually say that a Blade's greatest rival is a Fighter/Mage/Thief which can be true in some cases, however, back to the Fighter/Mage, each class has their own advantages and disadvantages. While the Fighter/Mage might have a higher THAC0 and a greater spell selection, the Blade's spells do last longer, he can easily achieve an AC of -24 and of course match the Fighter/Mage in almost every aspect be it with the use of scrolls, traps or whatever else. For ToB I do not use any mods but I tested it out and the song stacking still works in the latest patch. As for all classes, the Wild Mage was not fixed by Baldurdash as tested on my friend's computer.

For the Monk and Berserker I'll have to say that the Monk is a better choice. While he may not have as much health or the weapon proficiency, he can match the Berserker with the base attack speed, without the interference of Greater Whirlwind, unless of course the Berserker decides to sacrifice some damage for speed. Now, the main advantage that a monk has over the Berserker is the ability to use wands. What I imagine happened in that battle where the monk lost was that you buffed them up and just told them to attack each other. Of course, the one with the brute strength wins. A Monk has the stealth skill for a reason. Not only can he scout the Berserker when hidden, but he can unleash a barrage of spells through wands, effectively making the first move and retreating if need be.

[rbeverjr]

Not only can he scout the Berserker when hidden, but he can unleash a barrage of spells through wands, effectively making the first move and retreating if need be.

OK, we disagree on both counts, bard and monk. The guy who soloed a monk on Core difficulty in Ascension mentioned stealth tactics. That's not an easy challenge; so, I bet he used wands too - I don't recall. I'm still waiting for someone who can solo a monk in Ascension on Insane, as was done with a berserker. Has anyone done that?

Personally, I don't recall off-hand any wand other than the Reach Harm artifact that is going to change the outcome of the fighter vs monk match much. If it's just a game of retreat and not fight, the fighter can suck down invisibility, and they both can just sit. However, the point was that the fighter can use more effective weapons than a monk's fist. Using wands is a nice perk and another reason to consider monks in ToB - probably not enough in my mind though. The monk's slow start still makes me uninterested in them for SoA.