[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]
They are RPGs, right? The whole idea is to immerse yourself in the role, and not have the game bitch-slap you with the fact that it's just a game, right?[/QUOTE]
Ah! Here is where you and I truly differ, then. I never really immerse myself in games. The appeal of RPGs to me is the storyline. There are few things I enjoy more than good story. But I am not my character. I am just a player having fun with a game, and (hopefully) enjoying a good story in the process.
So if we define poor game design for RPGs to include anything that breaks immersion, then I will concede that this werewolf encounter is poorly designed.
Griffith Park werewolf (possible spoiler)
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Anaximander
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yrthwyndandfyre
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[QUOTE=Anaximander]Ah! Here is where you and I truly differ, then. I never really immerse myself in games. The appeal of RPGs to me is the storyline. There are few things I enjoy more than good story. But I am not my character. I am just a player having fun with a game, and (hopefully) enjoying a good story in the process.
So if we define poor game design for RPGs to include anything that breaks immersion, then I will concede that this werewolf encounter is poorly designed.[/QUOTE]
Then that is well and truly where we differ. I use these games to bleed off stress and tension, and while I'm a vampire, I'm very much a vampire, just as while I'm a Jedi, I am very much a Jedi, and while I'm a computer geek, I'm very much a computer geek.
Perhaps, however, my sensitivity to sunlight makes me identify more closely with vampires. Sunshine hurts me in the Real World, not just in VTMB.
So if we define poor game design for RPGs to include anything that breaks immersion, then I will concede that this werewolf encounter is poorly designed.[/QUOTE]
Then that is well and truly where we differ. I use these games to bleed off stress and tension, and while I'm a vampire, I'm very much a vampire, just as while I'm a Jedi, I am very much a Jedi, and while I'm a computer geek, I'm very much a computer geek.
Perhaps, however, my sensitivity to sunlight makes me identify more closely with vampires. Sunshine hurts me in the Real World, not just in VTMB.
Sic gorgiamos allos subjectatos nunc
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
[QUOTE=pennypincher]Now, that being said, I belive the encounter was meant to be a puzzle as well. I found it a pleasant change not to be back stepping while shooting or swingging a sword wildly... And it realisticaly represents how battles with Werewolves all to often go. Not many Vampires are brave enough to look at 9.5 feet of hair, claws and muscles that is running at them full pace and say: "I'll look it in the eye and dominate it"... Lets face it, if it doesn't work you shall be hence forth known as "Snr Smeer! The smeeriest smeer that ever covered a grassy hill".[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with it being a situation you can't solve by fighting, I would have liked there even to be more situations like (because frankly the later levels have too much of it for my taste).
I have a problem with it being a situation you can only solve by, and I repeat myself, I know, either looking up a walkthrough or doing multiple saves/reloads.
Moreover the situation could easily be remedied by a simple twist to the scene. Nines suggests in the scene that the building should be safe, then have it be so. You will still need to figure out how to get back to the cablecar, but by having the time to wander through the building you might also stumble on the solution for killing the werewolf (for which you still need to make a fairly deadly run outside to put the power on).
And have the werewolf maybe damage the building but not enter almost as soon as you yourself enter that building, have him take his time to get inside.
I have no problem with it being a situation you can't solve by fighting, I would have liked there even to be more situations like (because frankly the later levels have too much of it for my taste).
I have a problem with it being a situation you can only solve by, and I repeat myself, I know, either looking up a walkthrough or doing multiple saves/reloads.
Moreover the situation could easily be remedied by a simple twist to the scene. Nines suggests in the scene that the building should be safe, then have it be so. You will still need to figure out how to get back to the cablecar, but by having the time to wander through the building you might also stumble on the solution for killing the werewolf (for which you still need to make a fairly deadly run outside to put the power on).
And have the werewolf maybe damage the building but not enter almost as soon as you yourself enter that building, have him take his time to get inside.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
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yrthwyndandfyre
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[QUOTE=Lestat]I have no problem with it being a situation you can't solve by fighting, I would have liked there even to be more situations like (because frankly the later levels have too much of it for my taste).
I have a problem with it being a situation you can only solve by, and I repeat myself, I know, either looking up a walkthrough or doing multiple saves/reloads.
Moreover the situation could easily be remedied by a simple twist to the scene. Nines suggests in the scene that the building should be safe, then have it be so. You will still need to figure out how to get back to the cablecar, but by having the time to wander through the building you might also stumble on the solution for killing the werewolf (for which you still need to make a fairly deadly run outside to put the power on).
And have the werewolf maybe damage the building but not enter almost as soon as you yourself enter that building, have him take his time to get inside.[/QUOTE]
That occurred to me, too. Unkillable God-Monster? Bad. Unkillable God-Monster that you can't avoid an enounter with? That truly reeks. More than once I've been fretting because I know a werewolf is coming (one just freight-trained Nines), I know how big and scary they are, and the game has me run up by the observatory and calmly wait for it to attack me.
Even worse is when Nines says it's time to leave, and my PC sits there carrying on silly banter until the cable-car leaves. Nines is hiding out in Griffith Park. If he says it's time to go, one would typically give him the benefit of the doubt, wouldn't one? If he suddenly badly needs to leave, there must be a good reason.
Then of course, there is the fire. Jack's very first admonition to your fledgling butt is that fire is Real Trouble, but the PC acts like the whole LAFD is camped ten feet away and there is nothing to worry about. I've fought forest fires before. They're really big and really scary and about the second most terrifying mundane thing in the world next to a Tornado (I've seen one of those up close and personal, too). Hurricane force blizzards are also pretty darn scary, but at the end of the day I'd rather freeze to death than be burned alive. You normally freeze to death in your sleep.
I have a problem with it being a situation you can only solve by, and I repeat myself, I know, either looking up a walkthrough or doing multiple saves/reloads.
Moreover the situation could easily be remedied by a simple twist to the scene. Nines suggests in the scene that the building should be safe, then have it be so. You will still need to figure out how to get back to the cablecar, but by having the time to wander through the building you might also stumble on the solution for killing the werewolf (for which you still need to make a fairly deadly run outside to put the power on).
And have the werewolf maybe damage the building but not enter almost as soon as you yourself enter that building, have him take his time to get inside.[/QUOTE]
That occurred to me, too. Unkillable God-Monster? Bad. Unkillable God-Monster that you can't avoid an enounter with? That truly reeks. More than once I've been fretting because I know a werewolf is coming (one just freight-trained Nines), I know how big and scary they are, and the game has me run up by the observatory and calmly wait for it to attack me.
Even worse is when Nines says it's time to leave, and my PC sits there carrying on silly banter until the cable-car leaves. Nines is hiding out in Griffith Park. If he says it's time to go, one would typically give him the benefit of the doubt, wouldn't one? If he suddenly badly needs to leave, there must be a good reason.
Then of course, there is the fire. Jack's very first admonition to your fledgling butt is that fire is Real Trouble, but the PC acts like the whole LAFD is camped ten feet away and there is nothing to worry about. I've fought forest fires before. They're really big and really scary and about the second most terrifying mundane thing in the world next to a Tornado (I've seen one of those up close and personal, too). Hurricane force blizzards are also pretty darn scary, but at the end of the day I'd rather freeze to death than be burned alive. You normally freeze to death in your sleep.
Sic gorgiamos allos subjectatos nunc
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
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pennypincher
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Honestly, if Nines said to me: "We have to go, now! You don't understand!!" my first thought would be 'He's trying to find a chance to get away'.
That aside, I never really found it as bad as everyone else here did, but maybe thats because my first thought was already: "Heavens no, I'm getting the heck outta dodge!" and ran for my life. I know it's tought to avoid the Werewolf for 4 mins, but after about 3 tries I found it became second nature. Through this door, down that door, duck in this room then out again, over there, outside, back over here, under that around that...
That aside, I never really found it as bad as everyone else here did, but maybe thats because my first thought was already: "Heavens no, I'm getting the heck outta dodge!" and ran for my life. I know it's tought to avoid the Werewolf for 4 mins, but after about 3 tries I found it became second nature. Through this door, down that door, duck in this room then out again, over there, outside, back over here, under that around that...
I was Diablorised once. I got better.