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[QUOTE=snoopyofour]

Oh and I guess I ought to remind you that every ninth level spell you've ever mentioned would be a cheat by you're criterion since mages can't get to level 18 in SoA. hmmmm, how's your foot taste?[/QUOTE]

Time stop scrolls can be found after you come back from the underdark. Freedom and imprisionment scrolls can be found at the underdark. Mantle too. So Ha!.

Please tell me where you found an imprisonment spell in the underdark? I would love to hear it.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Please tell me where you found an imprisonment spell in the underdark? I would love to hear it.[/QUOTE]

In the dwaven store.

Let's just address this comment first.

"You will be, no matter what, just because they're not meant to be killed by a fighter. The vanilla game gives you tons of chances to win just because they want that kids that dont want to think before playing use their hack'n slash parties with success"

No, the vanilla game is the way it is because the designers of the game wanted the game to be playable with any class and just about any party arrangement. Basically they wanted a game that people would play, if I weren't doing tactics to prove a point I wouldn't be playing it. It isn't challenging, its annoying for this very reason "they're not meant to be killed by a fighter". Most of the protections mages get in this mod aren't spells, they're not even contingencies, they're innate abilites that happen automatically. Its like they all have another contingency that has no limit to the number of spells that can be put in it and every single mage has this new ability. Now I could make a mod where every fighter has 100% magic resistance, True Sight and Remove Magic as innate abilites, and immunity to Timestop but it wouldn't really matter cause then I've just made it so that they weren't meant to be beaten by mages. In case you're still missing my point let me reiterate, anyone could make this game unbeatable for mages just as easily as they made tactics harder for fighters. Mages and liches are only harder in this game because they use abilities they didn't have previously and weren't meant to have period.

By the way, the lich in the docks is already dead , and kangaxx isn't going to be a problem. I'm starting to get the hang of pwning these guys.

Oh my god in heaven. I just now realized the hilarity of your initial complaint against me using a lvl 20 barbarian. So let me get this straight. You're whole point, this entire time, for as long as this thread has been going on, for as long as we've been talking about this...is that a level 10 barbarian with no equipment can't beat a level 30 lich with a skeleton crew. OH MY GOD!!! Are there any other profound truths you would share with us Confucius? I mean would you like to tell us how its unlikely that a lvl. 2 bard would beat a beholder. Maybe how having a lower ac is better. While you're at it why don't you explain how the leveling up process works. For the love, I hope that you were saying that my lvl 20-something barbarian can't beat Kouraison because if you aren't then you have just become the new captain obvious.

"In the dwaven store"

And once again you are completely wrong.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Oh my god in heaven. I just now realized the hilarity of your initial complaint against me using a lvl 20 barbarian. [/QUOTE]

Please keep a civil tongue on these boards, or you will end up losing your posting privileges. Perhaps you missed the forum rules you agreed to when you joined:

#9 - Generally, if a thread has no useful content for other members, or may offend someone, don't post it. Let common sense be your guide.


This isn't up for discussion. If you want to argue, PM me. Better still, PM Buck Satan, the site owner, but the rules stand. No flames, no sarcasm, name-calling, etc. Answer questions and argue points all you like, but show respect for the people who are here.

calm down, dude..

"In the dwaven store"

And once again you are completely wrong.

Well, I can't remember the duergar merchant having imprisonment scrolls. He DOES have 4 freedom scrolls... He may have imprisonment but I just can't recall.

Pellinore, you are completely correct about the 4 freedom spells. As for the imprisonment spells, they aren't there because I just so happen to be in the underdark right now and after checking with every merchant there, there are absolutely NO imprisonment spells.

Thank you fable for your timely intervention, if we could maybe, just maybe, get on to what this thread was supposed to be about the entire time, that would be great.

Challenge

I want to see what people will come up with if the challenge is to think of ways to take down a powerful mage with a single combatant [...]

Let's talk about fighting one of your pc sorceresses (in essence a perfectly played mage).

What about a duel in the pit of the Copper Coronet. On one side we have a Barbarian, controled by one, who want's to hold up the fighters' banner. On the other side we have a sorceror, controled by one, who want's to defend the cause of the mages.
I would like, however, to leave Tactics out of this question. This mod only complicates the matter unnessecarily. If you would agree to do without Tactics I would be happy, If not, it doesn't matter. We could just open another thread. What do you think about that?

Best regards,
Lark

I agree Lark. That's why I suggested using a pc sorceror since so many of the mages in tactics use abilities that aren't actually available to a player. But I like the idea of doing as if it were the fight in the CC. So those are the circumstances, and remember no cheese for mages.

I'm going to put the first one out there. A fighter/thief weilding Corsyamar (I've got to figure our how to spell this. aka Big paladin sword) With a high ability to detect illusions and a few breach, ruby ray, and spell strike scrolls. This character is not unreasonable at all and wouldn't even be very difficult to set up. Assume he has all HLA abilites available to him. He also has invisibility potions with a cloak of non-detection.

However, if you want to post your tactics for beating some of the harder magic users in the game feel free.

I don't think that a fight between a sorceror and a fighter/thief would be optimal. Nobody here underestimates the power of this multiclass. Where opinions differ is rather whether (pure)warriors can put a challenge to (pure)wizards or not. Moreover, by introducing the thief you open a whole new can of worms, where the old one isn't yet closed again. I would prefer to settle the open question, before continuing to the next one.

The duel in the arena was just an idea, I wanted to check first if there is any interest. If we want to duel we have to clear the circumstances which are still a bit vague.

The basis should be a patched, baldurdashed, unmodded version of SoA and ToB. Reference should be the game, the information on the [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/"]Gamebanshee homepage[/url] and the [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm"]Spell Reference[/url]. To prevent an inpenetrable tohobohu we have to impose some limits on what the contrahents may or may not use. Do they have access to the backpack during the fight, or may they use only equipped and quick items? Are there banned items, if yes, which? (it would be wise to forbid the use of mindflayer control circlets, for exmple). What stats do they have, which abilities in what quantity, which spells are learned and memorized? The best would be a writeup of the characters in question. We should come to agree, what we consider as cheese and what not. Do we judge the casting of a chain contingency in the middle of the combat a legitimate tactic? What about fighting and detecting illusions at the same time - legitimate or not?
Finally, a referee wouldn't be bad. Maybe we will find someone that will help out.

Best regards,
Lark

This isn't just about whether or not pure warriors can pose a threat to mages. The question whether or not any non-magic user can. There are plenty of people who believe that no character can defeat a powerful mage. We don't need a write-up of all the combatants, that would take too long. Just give a general summary of your character (armour, special abilities, weapons, potions, ect.) and if the tactic you would use isn't obvious then state that too. All contingencies and triggers are acceptable. All items are acceptable accept pro. magic scrolls. If you want to use robe of vecna then be prepared for your opponent to use cloak of mirroring, however I don't really want to see any fighter types relying too heavily on the cloak. Assume both parties would fight exactly as they would in the game. Cheese is defined as anything that breaks a ground rule of the game (Druids throwing mage spells through potion swap, summoning multiple creatures who normally allow only one at a time, ect.). The use of imprisonment isn't going to be included in this because the spell can (for the most part) only be countered by mages.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Besides, how are you thinking that you're going to have an 8th level spell right out of Irenicus' lab. None of the early quests seem at all managable for a lowlevel party. I'm curious to know how you beat an adamantite golem with level 9 characters, when there are precious few +3 weapons available so early in the game.[/QUOTE]

You don't, and I didn't. The usual tactic is to leave the last battle and finish it after underdark. I had no way of fighting the adamantine golems, and had to leave them alive.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]There's no way that's true. I faced a random encounter almost immediately after the slaver quest where a mage had a contingency fire 3 horrid wilitings at my party. There was no warning and no time to prepare and everyone but my barbarian died.[/QUOTE]

That is true, and if you've read the README-tactics you'd know that. So, go figure what you'd done without your imported cheating barb? ;p

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]"And yes, it is cheese, not cheating, and you're cheating just by having a level 20 character to start Baldur's Gate SoA"

Oh my you're SOOOOO angry . But in addition to that you're also out of the loop. This little experiment is a challenge that Thrifalas gave to me that I would never beat advanced liches with any barbarian of any level (and I recall hearing you say something similiar so its no surprize that you're mad since I'm sticking it to you). I could have waited till my barbarian was 40th level and before doing this and still been well within the parameters of this little bet. Of course Thrifalas can renig and say "Oh I meant soloing with a barbarian from beginning to end" but I expect that he wont. Besides these liches can't get any harder. One of them cast 6 9th level spells at me which puts him very close if not at the experience cap. But no, I'm supposed to fight a mage twice my level with no decent weapons or abilities just because Antonio will cry if I don't. That's especially crass when mages have just about everything they need made immediately available to them in the most basic stores while fighters have to get out of spellhold to find anything decent. Why don't you stop whining and just face fact that even the best magic users in this game have weaknesses if you're able to exploit them, which I guess you aren't.

Oh and I guess I ought to remind you that every ninth level spell you've ever mentioned would be a cheat by you're criterion since mages can't get to level 18 in SoA. hmmmm, how's your foot taste?[/QUOTE]

What I expected what for you to kill liches with a single barbarian, which I'm still waiting for proof for. Since your plan obviously... failed?

Still, what Lois said that they you're cheating as you're importing a character and playing tactics. Which you are. You're not playing tactics, you're trying to kill imp. mage imp. ud liches. Which you can't with a barbarian.

And what's the whine about the spells? They ARE available in SoA, even if maybe not exactly the place Lois said.

And yes, you're supposed to meet the liches at level 10. Not 20. And a level 5 sorc can kill Firk, so I guess a level 2 bard could kill a beholder. With the right scrolls

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Basically they wanted a game that people would play, if I weren't doing tactics to prove a point I wouldn't be playing it. It isn't challenging, its annoying for this very reason[/QUOTE]

You import a character with HLAs. They're meant to be challenging for out-of-spellhold-groups, not out-of-sararush. And you still give amazingly strange descriptions about how you kill things.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]You're whole point, this entire time, for as long as this thread has been going on, for as long as we've been talking about this...is that a level 10 barbarian with no equipment can't beat a level 30 lich with a skeleton crew.[/QUOTE]

His point is, that while a 10 barbarian without equip can't kill a unmodded lich, a mage can. or a ken/mage. And while imp. liches are totally impossible for barbarians to kill, they're not for casters. His point is correct, but I guess you don't see that.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]I'm going to put the first one out there. A fighter/thief weilding Corsyamar (I've got to figure our how to spell this. aka Big paladin sword) With a high ability to detect illusions and a few breach, ruby ray, and spell strike scrolls. This character is not unreasonable at all and wouldn't even be very difficult to set up. Assume he has all HLA abilites available to him. He also has invisibility potions with a cloak of non-detection.[/QUOTE]

If the thief can have the cloak (which is a cheese item btw), so can the mage. The mage casts invis and the fighter/thief is out of the game. Now they're both invis, but the mage can finish the fighter/thief off with AoEs like a triggered 3xSunfire.

And if the thief doesn't have the cloak, he's finished before he got a chance to react. Even if they start of fresh from scratch and in melee range. Triggered pro-mw, stoneskin, pro-abjuration.

You forgot some things that could have made the thief truly dangerous, like the wand of spellstrike. Which yet again make me very curious about how you fight tactic liches.

This thread is rather amusing, but not very informative. If someone has something really constructive to say about how to deal with spell casters and monsters with spell casting abilities, would you please post it here: http://gamebanshee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76084? I quickly saw that this thread was going nowhere... I also know that there are still people playing this game who have a wealth of experience and can offer good tactical advice.

*In general,* the high level arcane caster is the most powerful class in the game. There really is no point in debating this fact (and I will not). However, even pure warriors can defeat mages under certain circumstances, depending on the level of preparation of the two classes. Heck, it happens all the time in the stock game doesn't it?

Don't even bother comparing the arcane caster with the fighter-thief with UAI and unlimited scrolls and equipment to choose from. In essence, this fighter-thief has become a mage and more. Of course, he should win. But that is kind of a twisted comparison of warrior vs mage, don't you think. Finally, in the end, who cares if the mage is more powerful than the warrior? We all just play the game for enjoyment right? So, let everyone just do what they have fun doing.

"That is true, and if you've read the README-tactics you'd know that.'

And if you'd read it you'd know that the random-encounters program is specifically designed to put you up against a party 2-3 levels above your main character.

"What I expected what for you to kill liches with a single barbarian, which I'm still waiting for proof for. Since your plan obviously... failed?"

I didn't tell you a plan, I told you how I killed them. Maybe you didn't get that.

"And a level 5 sorc can kill Firk" I wonder how you think this when sorcerors are at no point in the entire game level 5.

"His point is, that while a 10 barbarian without equip can't kill a unmodded lich, a mage can. or a ken/mage. And while imp. liches are totally impossible for barbarians to kill, they're not for casters. His point is correct, but I guess you don't see that."

This is quiet simply wrong. I've killed 3 already with my barbarian alone. Scrolls and spells are a kind of equipment so if my lvl 10 doesn't get any good weapons, your mage doesn't get any good spells. I'm done arguing with you about this. My barbarian has 3 liches, 2 dragons, and Kouraison to his name. After I finish off Kangaxx I'm deleting this lame mod and finishing ascension. PS: I would love to know how your solo lvl 10 sorceress killed an impr. lich. To put it lightly I think you're lying.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]"That is true, and if you've read the README-tactics you'd know that.'

And if you'd read it you'd know that the random-encounters program is specifically designed to put you up against a party 2-3 levels above your main character.[/QUOTE]

Aint your character level 20? What do you expect? Orange juice and magic missile?

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]"What I expected what for you to kill liches with a single barbarian, which I'm still waiting for proof for. Since your plan obviously... failed?"

I didn't tell you a plan, I told you how I killed them. Maybe you didn't get that.[/QUOTE]

No you havent told us. You told you'd use prot from magic scrolls, whirlwind or somehting but you havent told us how the battle per se has happened. You told that you've slain the skeletons which are annoying, and hten after that you've rested (or something) and returned.

Here is your quote about it:

No no, what I was implying is that those two characters were completely useless. Ok, my team setup involves my level 20 barbarian (I'm still trying to get levels with him) and level 9 sorceror, c/r, and f/t. I'm thinking that placing my barbarian in first slot was a bad idea because now the whole game is tailored to his lvl. So basically what I'm saying is that I beat those liches with the barbarian alone. All you do is tease out the skeletons and mummies. Kill them, rest and then go back and fight the lich. Mainly you just hit him a couple of times, he'll throw pmw, you wait (with deathward he can't really do any substantial damage) drink potions when you need to, whenever he looks like he's throwing timestop, duck behind something. Basically you just play it by ear until you think he's out of pmw and then use two whirlwind attacks. In my opinion the saquain priestess with the cloak of mirroring was a hundred times more difficult than any lich I've faced. That minor avator with imprisonment as an innate ability drove me nuts. But by then I was higher level and finished her off with a smite followed by a greater whirlwind. As a side note, oh my god! this katana I got from Kouraison is rediculous. I can't believe how good this weapon is.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]"And a level 5 sorc can kill Firk" I wonder how you think this when sorcerors are at no point in the entire game level 5. [/QUOTE]

The fact is that a level 5 sorceror can slay Firkraag, if one knows how to direct his powers.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]"His point is, that while a 10 barbarian without equip can't kill a unmodded lich, a mage can. or a ken/mage. And while imp. liches are totally impossible for barbarians to kill, they're not for casters. His point is correct, but I guess you don't see that."

This is quiet simply wrong. I've killed 3 already with my barbarian alone. Scrolls and spells are a kind of equipment so if my lvl 10 doesn't get any good weapons, your mage doesn't get any good spells. I'm done arguing with you about this. My barbarian has 3 liches, 2 dragons, and Kouraison to his name. After I finish off Kangaxx I'm deleting this lame mod and finishing ascension. PS: I would love to know how your solo lvl 10 sorceress killed an impr. lich. To put it lightly I think you're lying.[/QUOTE]

To put this lightly we thing you're wrong, and I bet Thrifalas or I can just make a level 10 sorceror make a lich go down. Mages get awesome spells. You better read those links I've provided you on the ohter thread again, and read them carefully. Spell descriptions and discussion will teach you.

"To put this lightly we thing you're wrong, and I bet Thrifalas or I can just make a level 10 sorceror make a lich go down."

An improved lich? We are talking about the same thing right? And if you're talking about just using scrolls to spells you can't memorize then spare me. I don't really see you surviving a fight with a lich and if you want to prove me wrong then I invite you to go ahead. Although if you do I could just pull your response and just deny that you're telling the truth. But anyway kangaxx is dead, and guess what, I still have both of my protection from magic scrolls and I even forgot that I had the "cloak of cheese". I don't suppose I have to clarify that my barbarian did this without a single other member to the team. I actually killed them all before I went into the fight just to make sure that it was mano ah licho. But anyway, that's pretty much the end of this little experiment. Kouraison was easily the most interesting part. I think I'm going to go back and save right before his fight just so I can have the pleasure of kicking his scrawny butt again and again.

"No you havent told us. You told you'd use prot from magic scrolls, whirlwind or somehting but you havent told us how the battle per se has happened. You told that you've slain the skeletons which are annoying, and hten after that you've rested (or something) and returned."

What do you want, a round by round for the entire fight? I've already told you as much strategy as I had to use. Oh and by the way, I didnt use protection scrolls for any of those earlier liches.

"The fact is that a level 5 sorceror can slay Firkraag, if one knows how to direct his powers."

Oh really, please tell me how you would do this. You don't get scrolls that you can't memorize and you're dead the first time he blows fire. Have fun.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]An improved lich? We are talking about the same thing right? And if you're talking about just using scrolls to spells you can't memorize then spare me.[/QUOTE]

An improved lich has the imp. mage, imp. undead mods. I don't think any other mod in tactics change them, but install everyone to be sure.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]But anyway, that's pretty much the end of this little experiment.[/QUOTE]

Want another experiment? Go play full tactics/ascension without your cheating barbarian and give us some feedback about how it went. You'll do fine, as you're the self-crowned master of the game.

Go hack 'n slash on Illyich's party and I'll guarentee you a nice experience.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]What do you want, a round by round for the entire fight? I've already told you as much strategy as I had to use. Oh and by the way, I didnt use protection scrolls for any of those earlier liches.[/QUOTE]

Maybe a description of what happened, how things worked out, if everything you thought would work did, if you had to change tactics in the middle of it...

What I'm mostly interested in is how you survived that many round against a lich (with a pet fiend, who spawns more fiends etc.) to wear out his pro-mw. And I had the distinct memory of him casting more pro-mw, thus making him impossible to take down by brute force.

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Oh really, please tell me how you would do this. You don't get scrolls that you can't memorize and you're dead the first time he blows fire. Have fun.[/QUOTE]

He don't get to blow fire, and even if he does, it can be circumvented by defensive spells and a lot of fire-resisting stuff that's lying around his lair. And Firkraag himself dies to carefully set skull traps.

And no, no sorc in the game is level 5, but it's theoretically possible as the only spell you need is skull trap which you gain at level 5. It sure it possible with a fresh-out-of-Chateau-Irenicus-dungeon anyway.