To restart or not to restart. (few, but some, spoilers)

[Xandax]

Hehehe - a 400MB mod
Guess I know what I'll do tonight if I find the mod worhty of install.

hehe - I wonder how it got a user rating of 1336.9 when you can select 1 to 10

[Fljotsdale]

*Shakes head in disbelief*:speech:

But... but... what's WRONG with the levelling system?

Yes, when I first started playing I had to lower the difficulty slider SLIGHTLY, but when I got the hang of the game I put it back to default and have never looked back. The game is perfectly playable 'AS IS', you don't need to tweak it, mess with it, or anything! You can put ALL your most-used skills as Majors - whether they are 'soft' or 'hard', and still play perfectly well!

And if a 69 year old grandma can play it with VERY little trouble, why are you young men having so much difficulty?

In the MQ, why not go in at level 1 or 2? It's easy-peasy! Or wait until you are level 40, maybe. Easy-peasy again.

And other quests and exploration... at whatever level... are no big deal. REALLY!!
I'm going to have to put up the difficulty slider soon...

The hardest things to kill are Will-o-Wisps. And Spriggans.

[Xandax]

*Shakes head in disbelief*:speech:

But... but... what's WRONG with the levelling system?
<snip>

What is wrong is that it is penalizing exploration and promoting either cookie-cutter speccing or doing things at Level 1 or 2.

Yes, when I first started playing I had to lower the difficulty slider SLIGHTLY, but when I got the hang of the game I put it back to default and have never looked back. The game is perfectly playable 'AS IS', you don't need to tweak it, mess with it, or anything! You can put ALL your most-used skills as Majors - whether they are 'soft' or 'hard', and still play perfectly well!

And if a 69 year old grandma can play it with VERY little trouble, why are you young men having so much difficulty?

Good that you have no problems, but I had huge problems.
I could not close the first oblivion gate at L20 withouth having to alter the difficulty. There were many, many high level mobs killing off my "help" NPCs and, well - my character.
I had to reload every couple of minutes and remember to save very often.
That is not fun to me, having to reload because the game is build in that way.

In the MQ, why not go in at level 1 or 2? It's easy-peasy! Or wait until you are level 40, maybe. Easy-peasy again.

Because I don't want to go a level 1 or 2. I want to explore the land, do some quests - you know, play the open ended game. Afterall, my character has just gotten out of jail, would his first instinct be to learn the lay of the land or run off on some quest for somebody he doens't know after somebody he doens't know.

And other quests and exploration... at whatever level... are no big deal. REALLY!!
I'm going to have to put up the difficulty slider soon...

Indeed it is. Because the game scales the way it does, it removes the need for exploration. If all monsters are scaled to you, then it doesn't matter if you play the game as a L1 with a little twig or as L25 with great equipment, because the monsters are scaled to you. The challenge was intended to be the same. That takes away a huge aspect for me.

The hardest things to kill are Will-o-Wisps. And Spriggans.

Well, not to me. I have little to no problems with neither of thoese.
I do however have problems with amongst others many high level Deadras and Athronacs. The will's and spriggans are easy. So perhaps things aren't so black and white as you try to present. "If I can, you can..." doesn't do much for advice or help.

This game have now a couple of times obviously and forcefully punished my "soft" character because of the leveling scaling the game uses to a degree where I had to alter the difficulty slider significantly to proceede.
And thus - I'll try my best to find modifications which alter to something I consider sensible when it is possible.

[Belthan]

Because the game scales the way it does, it removes the need for exploration. If all monsters are scaled to you, then it doesn't matter if you play the game as a L1 with a little twig or as L25 with great equipment, because the monsters are scaled to you.

Well, you do have a point there. Regardless of whether some players find the game too easy, too hard, or just right overall, there is an element of realism in games that will hand you your head in a basket if you stumble into the wrong area without sufficient experience or gear, and that element is admittedly pretty much absent in Oblivion. (As is the ability to wade through hordes of evil underlings with impunity once you've achieved near-godhood). But I think that enhances the open-endedness of the game rather than detracts from it. I get a kick out of exploring new areas and interacting with new NPCs more or less at random, without having to worry about stuff like "I have to clear out dungeon A so I can level up and take on dungeon B".

That said, I disagree that you need to min-max a cookie-cutter tank or battlemage to avoid being toast. I always build characters based purely on roleplaying preferences, and they've all been pretty successful as long as I play them according to their strengths and weaknesses. I ran a purely "soft skills" diplomat who hardly fought anything - talk to it, charm it, distract it, sneak past it or run away from it, but never fight it (and if absolutely neccessary, stab it in the back ).

[Xandax]

<snip> But I think that enhances the open-endedness of the game rather than detracts from it. I get a kick out of exploring new areas and interacting with new NPCs more or less at random, without having to worry about stuff like "I have to clear out dungeon A so I can level up and take on dungeon B".
<snip>

I'm an "explorer" in these types of games, meaning I enjoy walking around seeing what I can find. However - if I know I can walk into any dungeon I find and the game "supposedly" (because I don't see it working fully in this game, hence my problems suriving numerous encounters) making sure that I'll be able to complete it, it detracts from the danger element.
In Daggerfall and Morrowind, there was en element of danger when dungeoncrawling because you never knew what you'd run into and you knew you could reap great rewards for circumventing some dangerous monsters.
That element is next to gone - except naturally for the fact that monsters kicked my characters behind from here to oblivion (pun intended ) because it IMO scaled badly. And also because things scale, you know the level of benefits will be around your level and you'll not be able to accidently stumple on that good reward. Also because you - intended, no factual - was ment to be able to do any quest at any level, the incitement to level actually is dimished in the game.
Such elements do I feel is lacking very much in this game.


But nevertheless, because the game IMO scales badly, it made it impossible for me to close the first gate and free the city of Kvarth withouth turning down the difficulty (significantly). That is IMO mark of bad scaling and thus bad gamedesign. Luckily - I know I'm not alone in this regard as I've read posts around from many other people who got their behind kicked when entering the gates "to late" (meaning not L1-4ish).

First after entering the gate, I had 2 storm atronacs and 1 clanfear kicking me. The guard inside died within 10 seconds. I could not survive any meele, so I jumped around using my (ebony) bow and it took me about 50 dwarven arrows to kill them. After that I ran into some Dreamores(sp?) which kicked me so I turned down the difficulty enough that I could kill them.
After closing the gate and entering Kvarth I ran into dual Spider Dreadars and a couple of storm athronacs and a couple of clanfears. Needless to say that the guards died within a short time and the immortal one was unconsious most of the time. And this continued throughout the entier of Kvarth. So after using all my health potions, there was little to do then turning down the difficulty even more..... so yeah - I got pretty annoyed with this games supposed "scaling" at that moment, because it seemed unlikely the scaling would tip in my favour unless I grinded my characters weaponskills. And grinds are something I can't be bothered to do in single player games, my play time is to valurable for that.

[Siberys]

Pssst- It's "Kvatch"

[ashes2233]

am i the only one who makes sure to do kvatch as soon as i exit the sewers. not because i enjoy doing it (to be honest i hate oblivion gates) but because the game leveling makes it very difficult for a single person to take a city filled with storm atronachs and spider daedra. but as the gaurds are still good when you are level 1 it makes it 4 people against a whole city of scamps.


other than that i love the leveling. who said that you were supposed to get +5 everytime i think the game intends yu to get +2 or +3 most times as with this you still do well, so forget the minor skills rubbish jsuty have your major skills and try to do keep going-not as hard as people make out IMO

[Siberys]

I've made about 30 characters and the first one was the one with Kvatch at the start, then the rest I still haven't even touched Kvatch.

[fable]

I wouldn't restart. Basically, I think they made some horrible errors, such as preparing a very large, open area for the game, most of which is pure eye candy that you'll never access--because there's no reason to go there. Looking for dungeons to ransack? Find one near a city. Go through it. Come back in 3 days, and it will be full of the same creatures you faced before. Want more difficulty? Level up. Reenter the dungeon, and the creatures will be tougher. Want to try other places for better loot? No, all the loot is tied to your level. MW was so much better in this respect: there was a small but very real chance that over time you'd find far better or worse loot in a new place you just looted.

[Cartell]

The only character I've made that has ever have a problem fighting anything with incredible "I hate the game" difficulty was my assassin. And that was only with the occasanial part. When that happened I just would sneak by it or run away until so i could heal and try again. And so even my weak assassin could survive most parts. So no I wouldn't restart your game keep playing and give it some more time.

[Xandax]

I wouldn't restart. Basically, I think they made some horrible errors, such as preparing a very large, open area for the game, most of which is pure eye candy that you'll never access--because there's no reason to go there. Looking for dungeons to ransack? Find one near a city. Go through it. Come back in 3 days, and it will be full of the same creatures you faced before. Want more difficulty? Level up. Reenter the dungeon, and the creatures will be tougher. Want to try other places for better loot? No, all the loot is tied to your level. MW was so much better in this respect: there was a small but very real chance that over time you'd find far better or worse loot in a new place you just looted.

Pretty much how I feel. There is little to no reason to explore in the game due to the scaling. Then I'd rather have a liniar game. Bethedsda could do so much good with Elder Scroll, yet for each installment I feel they drive it more and more away from RPG and into pure Action.

But anyways, I installed that overhaul thingy and have now made a custom class and restarted. I'll give it some time to see if the mod improves the game or otherwise, it'll be uninstalled and shelved, and not touched for a great deal of time until I'm bored again.

[Fljotsdale]

What is wrong is that it is penalizing exploration and promoting either cookie-cutter speccing or doing things at Level 1 or 2.


Good that you have no problems, but I had huge problems.
I could not close the first oblivion gate at L20 withouth having to alter the difficulty. There were many, many high level mobs killing off my "help" NPCs and, well - my character.
I had to reload every couple of minutes and remember to save very often.
That is not fun to me, having to reload because the game is build in that way.

Well, no, it wouldn't be fun for me either!

Because I don't want to go a level 1 or 2. I want to explore the land, do some quests - you know, play the open ended game. Afterall, my character has just gotten out of jail, would his first instinct be to learn the lay of the land or run off on some quest for somebody he doens't know after somebody he doens't know.

That's fair enough. I like going the exploration route as well. I think I only twice went straight into MQ, and I didn't continue with either of those games because I felt I was missing too much!

Indeed it is. Because the game scales the way it does, it removes the need for exploration. If all monsters are scaled to you, then it doesn't matter if you play the game as a L1 with a little twig or as L25 with great equipment, because the monsters are scaled to you. The challenge was intended to be the same. That takes away a huge aspect for me.

Hm. Do you think so? I love the exploration aspect. Yes, to some extent the monsters are scaled to your character - but you CAN find Spriggans and Wil-o-Wisps and Daedra at pretty low levels, when they can be pretty daunting!

Well, not to me. I have little to no problems with neither of thoese.
I do however have problems with amongst others many high level Deadras and Athronacs. The will's and spriggans are easy. So perhaps things aren't so black and white as you try to present. "If I can, you can..." doesn't do much for advice or help.

Different character-builds, I expect.

And, no... Saying 'if I can, you can' is not only unhelpful, its incredibly tactless! I apologise. *Crawls under stone, blushing hotly*

This game have now a couple of times obviously and forcefully punished my "soft" character because of the leveling scaling the game uses to a degree where I had to alter the difficulty slider significantly to proceede.
And thus - I'll try my best to find modifications which alter to something I consider sensible when it is possible.

Fair enough.

[Fljotsdale]

Well, you do have a point there. Regardless of whether some players find the game too easy, too hard, or just right overall, there is an element of realism in games that will hand you your head in a basket if you stumble into the wrong area without sufficient experience or gear, and that element is admittedly pretty much absent in Oblivion. (As is the ability to wade through hordes of evil underlings with impunity once you've achieved near-godhood). But I think that enhances the open-endedness of the game rather than detracts from it. I get a kick out of exploring new areas and interacting with new NPCs more or less at random, without having to worry about stuff like "I have to clear out dungeon A so I can level up and take on dungeon B".

That said, I disagree that you need to min-max a cookie-cutter tank or battlemage to avoid being toast. I always build characters based purely on roleplaying preferences, and they've all been pretty successful as long as I play them according to their strengths and weaknesses. I ran a purely "soft skills" diplomat who hardly fought anything - talk to it, charm it, distract it, sneak past it or run away from it, but never fight it (and if absolutely neccessary, stab it in the back ).

Yeah. My little girl - emulating yours - is doing fine!

[Fljotsdale]

I'm an "explorer" in these types of games, meaning I enjoy walking around seeing what I can find. However - if I know I can walk into any dungeon I find and the game "supposedly" (because I don't see it working fully in this game, hence my problems suriving numerous encounters) making sure that I'll be able to complete it, it detracts from the danger element.
In Daggerfall and Morrowind, there was en element of danger when dungeoncrawling because you never knew what you'd run into and you knew you could reap great rewards for circumventing some dangerous monsters.

Especially Daggerfall!! That game terrified me! Adrenelin all the way! Loved it to bits! :laugh: