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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:33 am
by Jordoo
Quite simple CORAN is better.
*** in bow
20 dex
also has two side quests

I do love KIVAN but coran is a better archer bottom line.
If you can have them both you will really tare it up.

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:07 pm
by Rav
Jordoo wrote:Quite simple CORAN is better.
*** in bow
20 dex
also has two side quests

I do love KIVAN but coran is a better archer bottom line.
If you can have them both you will really tare it up.
So what do you think about the extra half an attack per round that Kivan gets (without TotSC/ about half the game earlier with TotSC)?

Rav

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:52 pm
by Jordoo
Rav wrote:So what do you think about the extra half an attack per round that Kivan gets (without TotSC/ about half the game earlier with TotSC)?

Rav
Coran gets it too albeit later on, but he comes with ***BOW right away witch is an advantage to hit. I have played with both in the same group as archers and even though Kivan had more time with the group Coran caught up with him in kills by the end. Thats my real live game experiance.

Deffinately not knocking Kiven though he rocks!

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:27 pm
by Rav
Jordoo wrote:Coran gets it too albeit later on, but he comes with ***BOW right away witch is an advantage to hit. I have played with both in the same group as archers and even though Kivan had more time with the group Coran caught up with him in kills by the end. Thats my real live game experiance.

Deffinately not knocking Kiven though he rocks!
I only recently acquired TotSC, so for me Coran and kivan were both people that would pretty much hit every shot. But Kivan would get more and earlier shots in (because he had 3 attacks in the first round, and Coran only 2).

I definitely like it that in TuTu the straight Archer is a better archer than a (cheating ;) ) Elf F/T though.

Rav

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:09 am
by TheAmazingOopah
I voted for Kivan, and I can't back it up with witty mathimatical proof, but can only talk out of my own experience. It's basicly just like this that when I direct Kivan to shoot at a basic monster, the beast is dead before you can say "Callahan", and probably would've died twice if that would be possible. With Coran, not only do I have the feeling that he misses more often, but also that his hits are less lethal. I like Coran as a character and a thief, but when it comes to sniping, leave it to the fellow with the .44 Magnum.

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:22 pm
by Andrew Stone
I voted for Coran - *** in bow and dex 20. Also, it's relatively straight forward to pick up Coran early enough for him to play a major part in the game. I'm currently playing an Elf fighter (archer). Blew through the early parts of the game ignoring pretty much any side quest (except rescuing Dynaheir) that didn't run out in front of me waving its arms and shouting 'do me now' and ran as fast as I could through Cloakwood to get Coran. He's now my party thief (bye bye Imoen) and has more kills and a higher %age of party kills and exp. than Kivan does, even though he's been in the party for a shorter period of time.

Having said that, they both rock, and my party which leans very heavily towards bows (myself, Kivan, Coran, plus Dynaheir and Branwen with slings and spells and Minsc as a tank to keep the monsters back) doesn't seem to be having any real problem with anything. Except greater basilisks. But that's what summon skeleton is for.

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:12 pm
by Walen
Isn't it that in BG rangers get a hidden bonus to bows because they cannot use two weapons?

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:02 pm
by CFM
Walen wrote:Isn't it that in BG rangers get a hidden bonus to bows because they cannot use two weapons?
Hmmm... not sure I've heard that one before. I'm thinking it is Icewind Dale that Rangers get a bonus, and it's if they're using a one-handed weapon without a shield. Not too sure though.

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:07 am
by roller1234
Voted Coran.
Rav wrote:Kivan. He gets the extra 1/2 an attack per round about half the game sooner. Without TotSC, Coran doens't get this extra attack at all, since he will be capped at level 6 fighter.

Discussing Thaco is meaningless. Kivan hits more often because he shoots more often (that's why he gets more kills, as was mentioned in a previous post). It's like having a permanent half-haste.

I play Tutu however, so Kivan just blows Coran completely out of the water, since Kivan gets BG2's archer kit.
I have to disagree with that. First, the AddOn is part of the game, and pretty much to be expected to be installed. Also Kivan is a ranger. He gets to lvl7 @75k exp, Coran @128k exp thats 53k difference. Considering i've reached values of 250k exp in a full party, the point of "half the game" seems flawed. Second passage relies on the above flawed assumption.

Also installing mods you can get any class to be anything the mod designer wishes. Doesnt have anything to do with BG1 though.

CFM
Kivan is an elf and gets +1 thac0 to bows. Still not enough though. Coran will have 21 dex, and has benefits of an entire additional class, a thief, which incidentally synergizes very well with 21 dex.

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:38 pm
by Jordoo
roller1234. Coran is also an Elf and gets that same bonus. I voted for Coran long ago and still think its pretty evident that he is a better archer than Kivan.

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:02 pm
by roller1234
Yes well the comparative table on the previous page listed neither so i had to mention it. Wouldnt it make more sense to compare Kivan to Minsc though. Both are rangers with melee capability. Kivan is better with bows, but Minsc is better with two-handed weapons. Given that Coran is best @ranged, picking either of those would be based on a mix of their abilities(since going for pure archery -> Coran). And in this case im not so sure if Kivan actually wins against the mighty Minsc either.

So the progression seems to be actually Coran>Minsc>Kivan. :o

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:58 pm
by Jordoo
roller1234 wrote:Yes well the comparative table on the previous page listed neither so i had to mention it. Wouldnt it make more sense to compare Kivan to Minsc though. Both are rangers with melee capability. Kivan is better with bows, but Minsc is better with two-handed weapons. Given that Coran is best @ranged, picking either of those would be based on a mix of their abilities(since going for pure archery -> Coran). And in this case im not so sure if Kivan actually wins against the mighty Minsc either.

So the progression seems to be actually Coran>Minsc>Kivan. :o
If your compairing archers in BGI then its Coran vs Kivan and nobody else. Khalid finishes a distant 3rd.
If your compairing the overall NPC's Kivan in my mind is slightly better than Minsc at least for BGI. He's just an absolute gunner with a longbow and at 18(12) str he's no slouch with a halibard or 2handed sword, plus if you use the MANY strength potions he's just as good as Minsc in that reguard. He also has better dexterity and thus better AC than Minsc.
I agree with you though that Coran is a better overall NPC than either.

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:04 am
by EtherImp
Just to clear something up.. (This is probably only available while running Tutu)

According to AD&D 2nd ed rules, Composite bows (Composite long bow for example) apply your DAMAGE BONUS from your STRENGTH SCORE to your bows DAMAGE MODIFIER..

For example, a character with a high strength score, who receives, say, +3 to damage due to his strength, would receive that +3 to damage when using a Composite Bow, as well as his THAC0 modifier from his DEXTERITY score to the Composite Long Bow.

So.. How do you figure out who the better archer is?

Figure out how high you can specialize each character at, say, level 8: Coran and Kivan, by only selecting bow profiencies of your choice (the best bow possible, for their class).

Then figure out Kivans strength bonus, and his THAC0 at level 8,with Composite Long Bow, and all modifiers from specialties applied.

Figure out the same for Coran.

Apply the "best" equipment set for each player. (+1 Composite Long Bow, Gauntlets of Dex/Archery/whatever, Girdles of Strength..whatever would improve their archery the most)

Average out the damage done over 1000 turns. Whoever comes out higher, wins.

With the Strength Bonus applied, and using a Composite Long Bow, I think Kivan would win, or it would be a tie (due to Corans extra specialization). Especially if you gave Kivan the gauntlets of Dex. I'm pretty sure 18 Str and 18 Dex with a Comp Long Bow beats 20 dex with a non-Comp bow.

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:06 am
by roller1234
Jordoo wrote:If your compairing archers in BGI then its Coran vs Kivan and nobody else. Khalid finishes a distant 3rd.
If your compairing the overall NPC's Kivan in my mind is slightly better than Minsc at least for BGI. He's just an absolute gunner with a longbow and at 18(12) str he's no slouch with a halibard or 2handed sword, plus if you use the MANY strength potions he's just as good as Minsc in that reguard. He also has better dexterity and thus better AC than Minsc.
I agree with you though that Coran is a better overall NPC than either.
Good point about Khalid. I'd say then Kagain too, with dex gauntlets. I dont see anything making Kivan actually different from other NPCs to justify calling Khalid or Minsc a distant 3rd. He is just a regular ranger, not exactly the strongest class in BG. Only because he does have an avatar with a bow, doesnt make him excel in said area. Even though thats probably the reason.

EtherImp
According to AD&D 2nd ed rules
In BG, slings do apply strength bonus to damage, and bows do not. Simple as that. In NWN1/2 there is a "mighty" modifier which lets you add some of the str bonus to damage. Which is ironically the same as in BG, where most bows do have an additional damage bonus on them already. I dont know how BG2 handles this, but i doubt it is any different, and lets you add 14 damage to each ranged shot, heh.

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:59 am
by Jordoo
I am pretty sure that roller1234 is correct about the damage from your strength modifyer only applying to slings.


In response to Kahlid NOT being a distant 3rd:
Coran gets +3 from 20dex, +1 because he's an elf, +3 to hit and +3 to damage as a master in bow.
Total= +7th +3td

Kivan gets +2 from 17dex, +1 because he's an elf, +1 to hit and +2 to damage as a bow specialist.
Total= +4th +2td

Kahlid gets +1 from 16dex, +3 to hit and +3 to damage as a bow master.
Total= +4th +3td

Minsc gets +1 to hit and +2 to damage as a bow specialist.
Total= +1th +2td

Your right roller1234 Kahlid should be a better archer than Kivan and he would level up faster than either of the rangers or multiclssed Coran. Gotta admit that one surprised me.

Oh and Kaigen is the best natural Tank in the game IMO. As dwarf he gets some good saves plus his 20con.

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:37 am
by EtherImp
roller1234 wrote: EtherImp

In BG, slings do apply strength bonus to damage, and bows do not. Simple as that. In NWN1/2 there is a "mighty" modifier which lets you add some of the str bonus to damage. Which is ironically the same as in BG, where most bows do have an additional damage bonus on them already. I dont know how BG2 handles this, but i doubt it is any different, and lets you add 14 damage to each ranged shot, heh.
I'm fairly sure in BG2 (tutu for BG1), Composite Long Bows apply your strength bonus to damage, which would give Kivan a significant damage bonus.

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:53 am
by Jordoo
The bonus to damage does not apply in BGI or ToTSC for composite bows. If it does in TuTu I wasn't aware of it but even if thats the case whats the actual extra damage for 18(12) strength? +2 or +3? Even if its +3 that means Kivan would be doing 2 more damage than Kivan per hit but Coran would still have +3 bonus to hit over Kivan.

BTW, if you have the strength to use a composite long bow (which both characters do) how would being stronger mean your doing more damage? Your either strong enough to pull the bow back or your not, thus the built in bonus to damage for the weapon itself.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:09 am
by roller1234
EtherImp wrote:I'm fairly sure in BG2 (tutu for BG1), Composite Long Bows apply your strength bonus to damage, which would give Kivan a significant damage bonus.
How can you say this. What does have another game or mods have to do with anything. Regardless of whether composite bows in BG2 actually do apply anything to damage, which they by design dont do in bg1 nor in nwn1/2. I actually went ahead and made a 25 str comp. bow archer in BG2. He did 7 damage to a mephit. You cant do 7 damage to something if youre doing 1d8+15 with each strike, here is the proof. Feel free to look up yourself, its not that difficult at all. Composite bows do not apply anything to anything.

Jordoo
Hehe yeah, i picked up Khalid as an archer so far. There is still time 'till Cloakwood. Here is another thought. Maybe he was designed to be an archer. That would explain his low str, and/or make it irrelevant. Another successful deception by avatar i'd say.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:25 am
by GawainBS
Composite Longbows do +2 to damage, from being a Comp. Longbow. That's all there is to it in BG1. They also add their enhancement bonus to damage, as do all weapons, and proficiency bonus.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:27 am
by roller1234
interesting. Yes my bg2 archer was able to reach damage values up to 11. With a 2-9 bow this would indeed imply there is a +2 to damage bonus. The interesting part is that it is generally assumed that the longbow of marksmanship is the better bow. With this however lets look at the stats

Longbow of Marksmanship: +3th, +2td
Composite Longbow +1: +2th, +5td (+3td base +2td from being composite)

Given high enough thac0, +3 extra damage per strike isnt that insignificant.