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In my part of the world the lyrics is not a problem, as most children won't understand them anyway. My son, aged four, actually prefers childrens songs to heavy metal. He will usually just walk over to the stereo and turn off anything he doesn't like, and I do play a lot of traditional metal. He likes Lordi because they remind him of orcs and trolls, and not because of the music. No, he did not see the Eurovision Song Contest. IMHO any kid at that age should be in bed at that time in the evening. I can't for the life of me understand why any parent would let a 4-5 year old stay up and watch TV close to midnight, let alone something like the ESC. When the time comes that he actually understand what the lyrics and the message is all about, I will be much more worried if he gets exposed to gangsta' rap or MTV manure than a bunch of latex goblins playing traditional 80s party-metal. As for satanism.... I thought most people would have figured out by now that if the devil was in the business of making music, he would never make heavy metal.... :laugh:

Moonbiter wrote:In my part of the world the lyrics is not a problem, as most children won't understand them anyway. My son, aged four, actually prefers childrens songs to heavy metal. He will usually just walk over to the stereo and turn off anything he doesn't like, and I do play a lot of traditional metal. He likes Lordi because they remind him of orcs and trolls, and not because of the music. No, he did not see the Eurovision Song Contest. IMHO any kid at that age should be in bed at that time in the evening. I can't for the life of me understand why any parent would let a 4-5 year old stay up and watch TV close to midnight, let alone something like the ESC. When the time comes that he actually understand what the lyrics and the message is all about, I will be much more worried if he gets exposed to gangsta' rap or MTV manure than a bunch of latex goblins playing traditional 80s party-metal. As for satanism.... I thought most people would have figured out by now that if the devil was in the business of making music, he would never make heavy metal.... :laugh:

Well that sums it right up. I couldn't have said it better.

As I and many others have said , IMO it all comes down to the parents and how they raise their children. If you can get your children to understand morrals, there shouldn't be any kind of conflict. There is real life and then there is entertainment, kids should learn the difference.

Damn, this post will be a looooong one

Fiberfar wrote: Anyways, Lordi isn't the worst for kids (As an example). Looking like mosters but playing that kind of "hard rock" will not affect one much IMO. Now, if you get deeper in the deepths of metal you'll find band like Gorgoroth and eventually Mayhem. IMHO you should stay away from at least Gorgoroth and Mayhem at that age (6-14), because those lyrics are bad, really bad (with the history of Mayhem being worse). There are probably bands with worse lyrics than those two, but I think I made my point clear.

That's true, and I only take it as an eample of bands, since it was covered in news. More problematic bands are/were Sentenced, which lyrics talk mostly about suicide and dying..., The Berzerker and couple of others whose concerts I have seen. There has always been very young children amongst the audience.

dragon wench wrote: As far as the lyrics themselves go, to my untrained ear, I have enough trouble discerning what is being sung, it's all a blur to me. I'd assume this would be even more amplified for a young child; thus, I question if the lyrics would really make any difference at all to them.

Not all bands use such singer and style. Let's take Sentenced for an example. Before they ended their band they used a singer whose singing was quite easy to understand, and thus reading lyrics wasn't necessare.

Bloodstalker wrote: I have no problem with younger children listening to metal. I do, however, think that if I were a parent I wouldn't take them to metal concerts. 5 or 6 year olds as kipi mentioned in his first post, have no more business at a metal concert than they do a bar or a strip club. It's not the music I think is a bad environment, it's the shows. Note, I am not saying that the shows are bad, because I love them, but to me, it's just something that isn't really appropriated for very young children of that age.

That's very good point. And it's not always the behaviour of bands, but the behaviour of rest of the audience. Like picking up fight because being drunk, etc. Not the place where 5-year-old kid should be...

Fiberfar wrote: I don't think metal is bad for anyone, as long as they don't take the lyrics to seriously (when they sing about death and killing and what not). Don't take kids to a concert at that age however. The loudest band on earth plays concert at 129,5 dB, which is well over the threshold of pain. If anyone claims to be mentally affected from listening to metal, don't belive them

Rein wrote: As I and many others have said , IMO it all comes down to the parents and how they raise their children. If you can get your children to understand morrals, there shouldn't be any kind of conflict. There is real life and then there is entertainment, kids should learn the difference.

I agree with you, but if for some reasons this "teaching" doesn't reach the understanding of child? Some may not understand what's the thiing behind all those lessons, and thus the behaviour and all the other bad things can become as "Forbidden Fruit".

Fiberfar wrote: Anyways, Lordi isn't the worst for kids (As an example). Looking like mosters but playing that kind of "hard rock" will not affect one much IMO. Now, if you get deeper in the deepths of metal you'll find band like Gorgoroth and eventually Mayhem. IMHO you should stay away from at least Gorgoroth and Mayhem at that age (6-14), because those lyrics are bad, really bad (with the history of Mayhem being worse). There are probably bands with worse lyrics than those two, but I think I made my point clear.

Okay, maybe Lordi wasn't the best example of bands in this discussion. And I agree you, there are a lot of worse bands, like those you mentioned (have listened them a bit, reaaaaally bad stuff there, even for me).
And that's why I'm worried about this child-thing, since even though they start from the easy Lordi-style bands, part of this group will move harder and darker till they got to bands like those two you mentioned in your post...

Kipi wrote:I agree with you, but if for some reasons this "teaching" doesn't reach the understanding of child? Some may not understand what's the thing behind all those lessons, and thus the behaviour and all the other bad things can become as "Forbidden Fruit".
...

I agree with you as well. I :mischief: myself am a rebel and I always did the opposite of what I was tought (to an extent ). Every family is different and children DON'T always understand the meaning of lessons. I guess in a a parent's shoes it would be best NOT to take your child to a Heavy Metal concert.

Even though I'm not a parent I believe that it is a difficult task raising a child, because you don't know if they are going to listen to you or rebel. :speech:

I praise everyone that can raise a child right. There is no such thing as perfect because not everyone in this entire world will agree on everything. So it all comes down to opinion.

IMHO: Keep music evil! :mischief: *Rein slams on electric air guitar* :devil:

I would say that we live in a free world, and we can listen to whatever we want.

A lot of you seems to forget that Heavy-Metal is also a way of expressing yourself, just like any other music genre (And that includes techno).

If i have to choose between my future children listening to Lordi or Mariah Carey, i wouldn't know what to pick, as i would rather just give them both CD's in their hands, and let them figure it out on their own.

What i see here, is that people fail to see that music doesnt sculpture your entire way of being, but rather gives it another dimension.

I know that i would get pretty depressed again if i all EVER listened to was Drowning Pool and Marilyn Manson, since it is actually very sad music.
But sadness is a part of life, just like what might, to some, seem like 'mindless' pop songs are.
Robbing a young mind of some of the dimensions in music is not something i will take part of, and while i do not 'resent' it, i find it somehow small, because you, by doing that, bend your child towards a more secluded and 'poor' way of thinking.

I like classical music, a lot of it helps me relax, but i can't picture myself listening to ONLY classical music for three days.

If you think listening to ONLY Heavy-Metal and Hard Rock is extreme, and you then ban it from the household, and start forcing everyone else to listen to Classical Music instead, then it is just the opposite extreme, which isn't a lot better, is it?

I listen to heavy metal music myself, together with a variety of other genres. But when my nephews and niece were little I used to change the music if I was driving them in my car as I wouldn't personally class a lot of my music as suitable for kids that age. Its nothing to do with not wanting them to listen to it, just more the language that is used. Now they are teenagers I don't really worry too much about what music I play around them.

Cussing is also a way of expressing yourself, whether you think it is too extreme for your children or not, is up to yourselves, i am just saying that i would probably take a different course of action.

While i would not forbid my children to listen to it, i would try to put an effort into making sure that it wasn't the only music they were listening to.

But i do not think that 5-year olds who are listening to Hard Rock and Heavy-Metal are put into a pattern of bad behavior by default.

I have a mate who is goth, and wears all of those spikes and leather cloths, but he is just as sensitive as the next person.
People are very quick to judge everyone on the music they are listening to, because it is a lot easier to put them in large groups of people then.

"Ooh, Milton is listening to Lordi and Korn, he must have a pentagramme painted on the floor of his living room, he will probably eat my children if i dont be careful".

"Ooh, Kim is listening to Britney Spears and Christian Walz, he must be a very feminine type of person".

I have a dream, that one day my little children will be judged on the contents of their character, rather than the kind of music they listen to!

media in our children's lives

Kipi wrote:Now, is heavy metal really something that young children should even know about, not to mention to listen regulary?
If I could decided, no person under 16 should listen metal.
What do you think of this?

I have to admit to being with you on this one. I listened to heavy metal but only as a teen (well...does Linkin Park and a few speed metal bands count?) and while it was detrimental at the time it has since become no problem. I do believe, however, that this is in direct response to emotional and mental maturing rather than anything having to do with the music itself. I do feel that it is up to the parents to raise their children rather than anyone in media (news, music, acting) but I understand how difficult it is when they see this all over the television even on things as simple as commercials. Also, there are different societies that view things differently. I lived in Germany for several years and was shocked and amazed that such a socially responsible country would have outright nudity and sexuality even in its commercials. But then I am American and we are seen as being prudes when it comes to this... Americans are also seen as violent, crude, unintelligent, oh, the list goes on. The worst part of this is that I saw so much of the worst of our culture being exported to Europe while I was there that it made it easier to believe the worst of us and it made me sick. I no longer wished to be American for a while until I realized that you can be part of a family and still be different (i.e. I just don't belong lol). I listen to all types of music and watch all types of things. I am an adult so I make the choices of what my young son will watch or listen to because he does not have the emotional maturity to figure these things out on his own. Since parenting is such a hard job anyway, why should we make it harder on ourselves by letting them listen to things that will only confuse them? Oh, and hang Britney Spears and Christina Aguillera for what they have done to the little girls' clothing industry!

laditricsie wrote: Since parenting is such a hard job anyway, why should we make it harder on ourselves by letting them listen to things that will only confuse them?

That's right. Such material would only confuse children, as they surely won't understand all those things around that "phenomenom".

Oh, and hang Britney Spears and Christina Aguillera for what they have done to the little girls' clothing industry!

Well, if we gou that direction, then we should start from Spice Girls

Kipi wrote:Well, if we gou that direction, then we should start from Spice Girls

Hang 'em all!! Just kidding but really I do think that as parents we hold the responsibility for whatever goes into our children's heads. They watch what we watch, listen to what we listen to, do what we do. I agree that we should teach them where to draw the line as far as acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior. However, when they are still at an age where we are having to remind them to brush their teeth and we are still cooking their food for them, I think we need to keep the focus on the basics. My son is 9 years old and does schoolwork at least 2 years ahead of the grade level he is in (4 years in 3 subjects!). I have to be extremely careful with him because he has an understanding level that is way ahead of his emotional maturity (which is also too far ahead for my comfort). I try not to limit him but I have to be incredibly careful with him. He came home from a friend's house not too long ago asking me about some music that he heard while there. I knew the band and lyrics (I listen to them) but the message was loud and clear and rather violent. It bothered him because he is rather soft-hearted and I had to explain to him that there are differences in people, the way they believe and if he didn't agree with the lyrics, he didn't have to listen. He told me how his friend turned into a person that he didn't understand becoming more agitated and angry as the music continued to blare. That was when he decided to call me to come and get him. I told him he made the right choice and that I was proud of him. I am still worried though. Not with his decision-making skills but whether I am succeeding at being a parent or not. Like I said, I don't want to limit him but I think this is something that he needs to discover on his own in his own time. This is not easy as a single parent!!

@laditricsie,
first of all, welcome to SYM!

Since parenting is such a hard job anyway, why should we make it harder on ourselves by letting them listen to things that will only confuse them? Oh, and hang Britney Spears and Christina Aguillera for what they have done to the little girls' clothing industry!

I am a parent too, my son is 11.
While I understand what you mean, I tend to find that laying down hard "Thou shalt not" rules generally has an effect that is precisely opposite of what is intended. In other words...tell a child that they expressly can't do something, and chances are they'll exert everything in their power to do it. This doesn't mean I'm a lax parent, or that we don't have rules we expect our son to follow. But, with issues like this, much like violence and so on in games or on TV, we prefer a guided approach. Also, I believe that too much sheltering of kids can have negative consequences. For example, we allow him to watch Law and Order: SVU (special victims unit), because we believe it is, in fact, healthy for him to be aware of issues like rape and pedophilia. And, we tell him very explicitly that this *is* the real world, that in this case the fact it is on TV does not mean it is fantasy or something that could never happen in actuality.
And, so far... the approach seems to be working out. Last weekend we were in a music store with him, and his selection was very age appropriate. He also spent a lot of time denigrating a rap singer (can't recall the name) who employs a lot of sexually explicit and violent content.

But, everyone has different ideas on parenting, so this is pretty subjective stuff.

I completely agree with you regarding the clothing industry..... This is one reason I'm pleased I have a boy.

dragon wench wrote:@laditricsie,
first of all, welcome to SYM!
I am a parent too, my son is 11.
While I understand what you mean, I tend to find that laying down hard "Thou shalt not" rules generally has an effect that is precisely opposite of what is intended. In other words...tell a child that they expressly can't do something, and chances are that they'll exert everything in their power to do it. This doesn't mean I'm a lax parent, or that we don't have rules we expect our son to follow. But, with issues like this, much like violence and so on in games or on TV, we prefer a guided approach. Also, I believe that too much sheltering of kids can have negative consequences. For example, we allow him to watch Law and Order: SVU (special victims unit), because we believe it is, in fact, healthy for him to be aware of issues like rape and pedophilia. And, we tell him very explicitly that this *is* the real world, that in this case the fact it is on TV does not mean it is fantasy or something that could never happen in actuality.
And, so far... the approach seems to be working out. Last weekend we were in a music store with him, and his selection was very age appropriate. He also spent a lot of time denigrating a rap singer (can't recall the name) who employs a lot of sexually explicit and violent content.

But, everyone has different ideas on parenting, so this is pretty subjective stuff.

I completely agree with you regarding the clothing industry..... This is one reason I'm pleased I have a boy.

First, Thank you for the welcome!
Second, it's not that I expressly forbid him to do these things. I quietly omit them from his life before it becomes a discussion. I don't want to be the one to introduce it to him but at the same time he knows that it is perfectly ok for him to come to me with any questions and he does, even ones that he thinks will get him in trouble! We watch CSI and a few other things together (I adore "House") and he understands that while the show itself is fantasy the content is based off of real life happenings. He is fine with this and he even learned something from CSI about an issue that I deal with on a daily basis. I have anaphylactic reaction to wheat so I have to be very careful and read everything I eat (he helps with that). He also informs the wait staff at various restaurants as to my allergy and intensely questions them about what they have in their recipes (embarrassing, but cute and kind of funny!). What he learned though was that while this can be deadly for me it can also be controlled through vigilance. But it scared him at first with the way they did the graphic images of how someone dies of anaphylaxis. He and his daddy didn't understand the way it worked. Even now they only have a basic knowledge of the mechanics but I carefully shelter both of them from the true knowledge of what it is that I go through when I am not as careful as I should have been. I don't shelter my son from much (can't since we are military and he sees too much anyway) but I do try to let him be a kid.
Third, I am thrilled beyond belief that I have a boy as well! I work at the local high school and am shocked at what I see is being labeled "acceptable".:speech: