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Vicsun posted:

What exactly am I wrong about? I think you just pretty much agreed with what I said, unless your post was some subtle ironic maneuver that went over my head

Sorry, my bad. Turbo-posting on three different messageboards with basically the same topic.

@Morlock...

Like I previously stated 2 years ago when I first came here and you'n'me got into it, I don't give a toss anymore. I have lived with you and your sandbox conflict for my entire life. I've tried to do my part to create peace, both by might and by reason, and in my book it's a lost cause. I fully and wholeheartedly respect that you think you're defending your country, and as I said 2 years ago, I was indoctrinated enough by the political climate I grew up in to support you when I first came down there. Of course, that changed pretty quickly, but then again, carrying a gun as a peacekeeper in a so-called demilitarized zone where a bunch of retards constantly try to pick a fight, is basically the same job as being a bouncer in a backwoods honky-tonk bar where two hicks are fighting over the blonde tramp drinking for free at the end of the bar. Useless and stupid. It will happen every Saturday night from here to eternity, and trying to fix the problem will only give you a busted lip.

THAT is why I'm questioning joining the army.

Morlock wrote:Maybe in the US since WWII. The US is not the entire world.

No, you are probably right. The US is the only country where the military ruins your life as a rule. Maybe you should have a chat with some Russian veterans from Afghanistan. Or just about any military in Africa. Any one of the grunts in Thailand.

And people wouldn't be killed if the military isn't doing it's job?

Sure they are, but probably fewer. Why add to the bodycount? If military types played their wargames on the moon or in Arizona and just killing other military, then it would be fine by me - their choice. Unfortunately they keep placing their warzones in ordinary people's back yards.

I don't understand your point....yes, that is the widely accepted definition of "defending". Do you see anything wrong with that?

Seen any western armies defending something lately? Forward positions on foreign soil excluded, of course.

Yes, I can, but as I would be in the minority opinion, I'll refrain from doing so, so as not to divert attention from the matter at hand.

This has to be the strangest response I've seen in a while. You mean to say that the non-stupid mission is generally viewed as stupid by most people with the exception of you and a few others?

As I said, the military's function is not for these missions, but for the day-to-day business of keeping a nation safe. I worked in the air-force, in a F-16 squadron, first as a technician, than in a more executive position, in both positions my job was to take care of the planes. Aside from the importance of the job, the amount of responsibility and trust that is put in you something no one at the age of 18 is going to find anywhere else. At 19, I was arguing with generals and telling them what's what. You can't get that any where else. And, aside from that, you will find freindships in the army you won't find anywhere else. I met my girlfriend in the army. Many of my best friends are from the army. My unit was like on big, 150-man family. It's a life-altering experience that focused me and gave me skills I couldn't find anywhere else.

You find very good friends, an education apart from anything else and get to yell at authority in most prisons as well. I would still dissuade anyone from becoming a criminal. Learning how to service the tools of war is not a self-serving purpose, it is simply preparation - taking good care of a nuclear warhead is preparation for genocide, nothing else. I guess it is too emotionally taxing to consider the fact that the thing you are fixing is built to kill other people, so it's easier to just see it as a job.

In short, I'm just saying......you had to have gone thru it to be able to impart what the military experince is like, since, according to your attitude above, you've got the wrong idea.

Home at the base is one thing, war something completely different.

Still, you are missing the point. I am not arguing against the good friends, the education, the telling off generals, etc. That's all fine. It is still for the purpose of murdering other human beings. Fixing and fueling up an F-16 is simply aiding and abetting.

And, true, I did not go through combat in the army (even though I've been in my share of shooting and bombmings), and cannot tell you what it's like encountering an enemy in combat, but, the military experience is certainly not a one-faceted experience. I spoke with my best firends in combat units all the time, and the feeling are very much the same.

Your friends must either have better morale than their colleagues or not be part of the US invasion of Iraq, because last I heard, most of the servicemen want to go home. Iraq is boring, deadly boring and sometimes just deadly.

Morlock wrote:Well, as I am living in an exception, I cannot identify at all with calling that BS. Over here, it's the real deal. Soldiers here actually do defend their country and it's people, and aren't thousands of miles away fighting for economic and political gain, or thousands of miles away defending interests that have nothing to do with their country.

This is not as clear cut an exception as you would make it to be, but perhaps we should avoid that particular discussion? It tends to get very heated, and will probably add very little to this particular thread. On the other hand, you are in the unique position of observing first hand that "violence sows violence". In military terms it is generally referred to as an "escalated conflict", and strangely, they all do.

Silur wrote:Sure they are, but probably fewer. Why add to the bodycount? If military types played their wargames on the moon or in Arizona and just killing other military, then it would be fine by me - their choice. Unfortunately they keep placing their warzones in ordinary people's back yards.

When did we go from talking about soldiers to "military types"? Al Quada and Hezbollah are "military types". You're saying you wish "military types" would stop fighting in our backyards, I'm all for that. However, I was specifically talking about an actual military defending against "military types" who decide to attack the backyard.

Silur wrote:Seen any western armies defending something lately? Forward positions on foreign soil excluded, of course.

I don't take western armies as the rule, as I have little respect for most western armies. The same goes for Eastern armies. I can only talk about central armies.

Silur wrote:This has to be the strangest response I've seen in a while. You mean to say that the non-stupid mission is generally viewed as stupid by most people with the exception of you and a few others?

Yup, it's called 'an opinion'. I was refering to the recent Israeli excursion into Lebanon, as one might have guessed, and, frankely, it being widely thought of "stupid" (In most cases, that is quite an understatement) outside of Israel does not affect my judgement. As long as me, and a few others (i.e., my fellow country-men) see it as non-stupid, I frankely don't care if anyone else in the world thinks it's stupid. They don't seem all that bright to me, either.

Silur wrote:You find very good friends, an education apart from anything else and get to yell at authority in most prisons as well. I would still dissuade anyone from becoming a criminal. Learning how to service the tools of war is not a self-serving purpose, it is simply preparation - taking good care of a nuclear warhead is preparation for genocide, nothing else. I guess it is too emotionally taxing to consider the fact that the thing you are fixing is built to kill other people, so it's easier to just see it as a job.

Still, you are missing the point. I am not arguing against the good friends, the education, the telling off generals, etc. That's all fine. It is still for the purpose of murdering other human beings. Fixing and fueling up an F-16 is simply aiding and abetting.

....aiding and abetting the cause of preventing more of my cousins or friends or neighbors getting killed. Yup, I'm happy to do it. As a matter of fact, not only do I not mind helping to hunt down those who would kill my family, I'm very proud of it.

Silur wrote:Your friends must either have better morale than their colleagues or not be part of the US invasion of Iraq, because last I heard, most of the servicemen want to go home. Iraq is boring, deadly boring and sometimes just deadly.

As a matter of fact, they (apparantly) do have better morale than their colleagues, and they are not part of the US invasion of Iraq. I have enough problems in my country to deal with before caring too much about another country's troubles. But it breaks my heart to see all those guys getting killed, (generally on page 16, as it's been a while since a soldier dying in Iraq made the headlines) and, put in the same situation, I'm sure most of our soldiers would also want to give in their dog-tags. I guess I have the luxury in believing my country's cause.

Silur wrote:On the other hand, you are in the unique position of observing first hand that "violence sows violence". In military terms it is generally referred to as an "escalated conflict", and strangely, they all do.

Well, I am of the opinion that the human race is not a peaceful one. Get rid of all the guns, all the soldiers, all the terrorists, all the murderers, thieves, drugs, ect., and we'd still find something to fight with and about.

Morlock- who conciders himself either the most pessimistic optimist he knows, or the most optimistic pessimist

Morlock wrote:Yup, it's called 'an opinion'. I was refering to the recent Israeli excursion into Lebanon, as one might have guessed, and, frankely, it being widely thought of "stupid" (In most cases, that is quite an understatement) outside of Israel does not affect my judgement. As long as me, and a few others (i.e., my fellow country-men) see it as non-stupid, I frankely don't care if anyone else in the world thinks it's stupid. They don't seem all that bright to me, either.

If it's any consolation, I think Hizbollah are the bigger idiots in that affair. Most of the time it's a draw, except maybe the oportunistic post-911 years. You reap what you sow.

....aiding and abetting the cause of preventing more of my cousins or friends or neighbors getting killed. Yup, I'm happy to do it. As a matter of fact, not only do I not mind helping to hunt down those who would kill my family, I'm very proud of it.

And you think it is working?

Silur wrote:And you think it is working?

I know it's working. Suicide bombing prevention is at almost 100%. Many fewer shootings. But, most importantly, there isn't someone I know blowing up every other week, including a girlfriend (while waiting to meet me for lunch at a Pizzeria), family members (a second cousin who was killed, with her father, buying coffee and cake the day before her wedding), neighbors (An elderly man buying groceries for the Friday night meal) and friends (A soldier who's tank was blown up, and body parts were captured to be ransomed off), not to mention personaly being shell-shocked after jumping into a carpet store when someone started shooting up the main street in downtown Jerusalem, or heaing that the bus I was on blew up 20 minutes after I got off, or, in general, hearing explosions every once in a while.
If all the above is being prevented successfully, Yeah, I'd say it's working.

Morlock- who does not pretend to be unbiased in any way, shape, or form

Morlock wrote:Well, I am of the opinion that the human race is not a peaceful one. Get rid of all the guns, all the soldiers, all the terrorists, all the murderers, thieves, drugs, ect., and we'd still find something to fight with and about.

Sure, but it might be a fair fight. Blowing up other people's children with laser-guided bombs from the safety of an airplane isn't.

Every time your part of the middle east comes on the news I weep for Yitzhak Rabin. Yigal Amir could not be happier.

Guys, last time I checked, this thread was about the advantages/disadvantages of joining the military. Things have gotten way off track, here. Let's bring it back, now.

I really meant the above. I've deleted 3 more posts. I know tempers are very high on this subject, but if there are any more off-topic posts, I'll be handing out infractions.

fable wrote:Guys, last time I checked, this thread was about the advantages/disadvantages of joining the military. Things have gotten way off track, here. Let's bring it back, now.

Sorry, got carried away...

Back on topic: The major disadvantages with the military is that you run the risk of getting killed, being used as a playing card in international politics / corporate finance, may have to kill innocent women and children, and being shafted by your own government when you get back home. Making your own decisions is generally frowned upon. It is unlikely that anyone outside the immediate family and your unit will ever be happy to see you. The major advantage is that you don't need to take responsibility for your own actions - unless the media finds out, in which case you will be hung out to dry while those who gave the order get away clean.

If you like to do some real humanitarian work, consider joining the Peace Corps instead. Or study to be a doctor or nurse and join Doctors without borders. Either way, you will find great friends, learn something unique and actually help people instead of blowing them up. The Doctors without borders usually work the same regions as the marines do, and sometimes even closer to the action.

I've been in the Army for two and a half years now, and have not been to the middle east or killed anyone, or been significantly at risk of being killed. The two most significant thing I've done is evacuated citizens and filled sandbags when El Paso flooded this year. The other was defending (yes I beleive M.A.D. counts as defending ;P ) South Korea.

To all that say the military ruined their life, the problem is that they don't realize the significance of the contract they enter. It is very strict, and in effect 24 hours a day, 365.25 days a year, and even when you are off duty or on leave. If you are fine with having everything else in your life be second to the military, including your family, then you are suited for a career in the military. If not, the military will still take good care of you, if you are willing to devote yourself to it for a few years. But it is undeniably hard on your body and mind.