Monks

[Xyx]

Originally posted by frudi:
<STRONG>so now monks suck because they loose badly to spellcasters? like any other fighter type class would do any better... so I guess that means that only spellcasters are any good??</STRONG>

Warriors are also some good, just not as good as a rested spellcaster. The advantages of warriors are, IMHO:

• No need to rest after every big fight. At least, provided you have enough healing and don't wish to go through the game using Greater Whirlwind Attack in every battle.
• Easy to play. Simply point and click, and chunks start flying. If you wish to use spellcasters with the same or better efficiency than that, you actually have to think.

All spellcasters can soak or deal damage better than warriors, it is just more of a hassle (although BG2 is very easy on resting).

Adding a little fighting power to a spellcaster's repertoire (such as the infamous Kensai-Mage) never hurts, of course. Any thought-out multi or dual is more useful than a single class, IMHO.

Originally posted by frudi:
<STRONG>as for monk's fists being only +3 - there isn't a single creature in the game I haven't been able to hit with a monk's fist.</STRONG>

I take it you never met Kangaxx?

Originally posted by frudi:
<STRONG>of the various resistances, the one that really matters is magic resistance and even the Cloak of Mirroring can't offer the same level of protection.</STRONG>

Hmm... There are only two types of spells that warrant protection:

• Damage spells. Magic resistance negates damage, the Cloak bounces it back.
• Disabling and insta-killing spells. 99% of these are negated with a saving throw, or by having high Hit Points.

I'd go for the Cloak of Mirroring. Of course, not needing the Cloak means you can use another nice cloak and give the Cloak of Mirroring to someone else.

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Actually a fighting type CAN have 100% magic resistance.

It's called protection from magic (the scroll...which monks can not use). For a good real-time hour, you are immune from all magic.</STRONG>

Yeah... about two times in the whole game. Unless you employ clones, of course, which countless people (myself excluded) will consider cheese.

It seems to come down to this:

• Fighters kick Monks' butt.
• Monks have some nifty abilities, such as magic resistance and stealth.

AD&D doesn't get any more balanced than that, IMO.

[polaris]

Look people,

I never said that Monks didn't have their uses. In fact if you go back to my first post, I think you will find that I think they are a pretty neat class. I still think so. I just don't think they are the uberclass some of the other posters think...and for fighting, a fighter is better (which makes sense I think).

Now I did say that I thought the Monk was a bit weak. I still think so. I also think some other classes (Theives and Druids come to mind) are weaker.

-Polaris

[THE JAKER]

Polaris, I'm scared even hitting the "post reply" button, but here goes:

"Whachoo talking 'bout thieves!"

A'HEM...I wonder if any of those monks, clerics, mages OR fighters can DISARM a TRAP...

No? Well I guess they'll just have to take the damage (/instakill), then, which might take a little of the fight out of them!

See, the thief has a number of abilities that make them essential, which is at least a little bit better than the Monks that this thread is about ( I never have played one, so...). I don't know if the thief is the "strongest" class, but they sure are a part of a lot of the stongest dual/multis, and the swashbuckler can certainly cream some corn!

[polaris]

Calm down Jaker,

I said that I thought thieves were *weak*, not useless (there is a difference). However, look at it a bit more carefully....

In BG I (as long as I was quick with those potions of insulation), I could solo with a fighter. My solution to traps was to simply take it on the chin. [Which I will admit is a no-go in BG II.]

In SoA and ToB, however, the traps *aren't* that tough. I find that even Nalia is likely to disarm most traps, and Imoen is almost certainly will. Give Imoen 4-5 potions of master thievery and you have all the thief you will ever need for the best of the game (give her the Harper's Amulet and the Ring of Danger Sense as well).

A Thief multi or dual (especially dualed to a mage) is great. I find that a Solo thief is usually a waste of space in a party, however. [In short, I find that 'Thief' along with 'Fighter' is one of the best "second" classes you can have...to back up your primary one.]

-Polaris

[THE JAKER]

Ok, obviously we've gotten a little far afield from 'Monks', which are the topic...

I agree that Imoen or Nalia (or Yoshi, but especially Jan! ) can do all the thieving you absolutely need. (but not necessarily all the theiving you WANT to need)

However, the problem is that they are weak characters to have scout ahead of the party, and a thief is partly a scout. The mage/thief dual or multi is a problem in my mind because of this. I want to have my mage at the back of the party, and my thief out ahead. For this reason, a fighter/thief or pure thief (swashbuckler )wearing some of the excellent leathers that Nalia, Imoen and Jan can't wear, is important to me.

As far as dealing with some of the most nasty traps, BTW, a monk would have some advantages over a pure fighter in "taking it on the chin" because of their MR and immunities.

[polaris]

As for 'taking it on the chin', I'd call it a wash though most of SoA. The Monk does have the MR, but the fighter has better hit points. There are a few save or die traps in SoA, but after you have played the game once, you know where they are (which takes the sting out of traps). I would say that a Paladin with a holy avenger is better than either though most of SoA. His MR is typically 60% or so (better than a Monk until very late in the game) AND he has the saves and hits to go with it.

As for scouting? That is what clairvoyance and wizard eye is for. Besides...simply have all your clerics have 'detect traps' active whenever in a dungeon. You will be fine. The traps will light up long before you trip them...and then you send your *invisible* Theif/Mage to disarm them. It works like a charm....trust me

In short, I find no real need for the 'buff' scout you are talking about Jaker.

-Polaris

Just IMO of course.

[frudi]

I take it you never met Kangaxx?

actually, my monk killed both Kangaxx and the Demi-lich in Watcher's Keep, protected by the Protection from Magic scroll. and yes, he used his fists and yes, they abviously hit.

Magic resistance negates damage, the Cloak bounces it back.

I take it you never installed ToB? if so, let me tell you that the Cloak now DOESN'T reflect the spell back to the caster. also, the Cloak doesn't protect against spells like Fear, Symbols, Power Words... and neither against area of effect spells.

and for fighting, a fighter is better (which makes sense I think).

I agree that fighters should obviously be the best fighting class, otherwise what's the point of their class name? and in straight melee combat they will generaly dish out more damage than a monk (dual-weilding or hasted, with 2hswords they get less attacks/round which negates the possibly higher damage/hit).
but I am still thoroughly convinced that a monk can handle a wider variety of enemies than a fighter. without the hassle of having to change equipment for certain types of enemies. especially the ability to face any spellcaster alone and not have to worry about any other spell but Imprisonment makes the game soooooo much easier.
now you may not consider the monk to be an uber-class and I can't say much about that, since there are a lot of classes I haven't tried out yet. but I can tell you, that playing with him I found most of the game (except for some ToB bosses and groups of powerful melee enemies, like fire giants) just plain too easy.

oh, and I played through ToB without a thief - with magic resistance and some healing potions for mechanical traps, the monk can easily ignore traps and walk over them.

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: frudi ]

[polaris]

Ahh, but there you have hit upon the Monk's glaring weakness. ToB is FULL of melee heavy baddies. You have firegiants, drow, dragons, lots of salamanders, etc etc. When faced against very powerful melee fighters (like Firegiants), the Monk simply has problems.

You make a big deal about the 'hassle' of switiching gear. It isn't a big hassle. A fighter his four slots for weapons (five if you dual wield), and unlike BGI, the game pauses when you go into inventory. As such you can instantly switch over to the immunity you need.

I also take it you have never run into the 'answerer' (at the oasis) or 'lower resistance'. Your MR against those attacks lasts all of about a round....and there are a LOT of attacks your MR is useless against.

BTW, at level 26, monks fists do go to +4 so you could beat the demilich. Actually the demilich is easy if you solo and very hard if you don't (a reverse of the normal conventional wisdom).

As you progress in ToB, I think you will find your monk losing a lot of his shine (mine did).

-Polaris

[polaris]

Actually the Cloak of mirroring DOES affect area effect spells (it is not supposed to). Even so, have your fighter wear an inertial belt. That provides a BASE 50% protection against magical damage.

As for your symbol spells, they are grossly overrated. Fear? There are at *least* four items in the game that protect against fear totally. In addition, if you a member of a party, your cleric can keep the entire party fear-proof almost continously.

Death? Again in a party, deathward is not a problem. It is only a 4th level cleric spell (and therefor common as dirt). If you are soloing, then Hindo's Doom will do you just fine.

The only one that is a real pest is stunning...and even that isn't true for all fighting types (only the pure fighter). The Cavalier and Inquisitor are almost immune to these type of attacks AND (especially the Inquisitor) has MR that is near Monk Level with the right gear (Holy Avenger+Amulet of Seldarine+Bonuses from Hell+Bonuses from Machine = 75% MR BEFORE Potions or other special items are factored in).

In short, the Monk is a neat class, but IMO somewhat weak.

-Polaris

[THE JAKER]

Polaris, why 2 posts?

[frudi]

I'm not really interested in character vs character fights showing of ones might, all I care about is getting through the game. so I run into exactly one enemy that weilds The Answerer and I seem to recall being hit exactly once with a Magic Resistance spell (never Lower Resistance). tha game doesn't do much to lower my MR.

as for the melee badies - the drow rarely tuched me and fighting a group of ten of them was no problem. the salamanders are only dangerous because of their fire shields and rings of fire resistance and/or boots of cold resistance decrease the damage from those. the fire giants were a pain, I have to admit it, but using the special abilities like Stunning blow, Quivering palm and Smite got me through them. and as for dragons - Draconis and Abazigal are a pain regardles of class and the pair in Watcher's Keep isn't all that difficult. anyway, I found dragons MUCH easier destroyed by magic so I'd preffer a mage over a fighter type any day for dragon killing.

and I'm not making a big deal about having to swap gear with a fighter for certain enemies, just thought to mention it, because some say the beauty of fighters in comparison to mages is they don't have to prepare before battles. but then again I guess swaping a helmet or a ring in mid-combat or clicking on a different quick weapon slot isn't THAT big a deal . but I think there's still less of it with a monk.

and I actually agree with you that monks are not nearly as dominant in ToB as they were in SoA, but for me, they still make the game a LOT easier...

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: frudi ]

[Xyx]

Originally posted by frudi:
<STRONG>actually, my monk killed both Kangaxx and the Demi-lich in Watcher's Keep, protected by the Protection from Magic scroll. and yes, he used his fists and yes, they abviously hit.</STRONG>

Ah, that is certainly good news. What level was the Monk? Or rather, what '+' fists did he have?

Originally posted by frudi:
<STRONG>I take it you never installed ToB? if so, let me tell you that the Cloak now DOESN'T reflect the spell back to the caster. also, the Cloak doesn't protect against spells like Fear, Symbols, Power Words... and neither against area of effect spells.</STRONG>

No worries; I know exactly how the Cloak works in ToB. Slightly less useful, but still bordering on Cheese. The only difference is that you now actually have to hit enemy Mages to kill them.

As for the Symbols and the Power Words, please allow me to restate that they are negated by saves or any decent amount of Hit Points. Did you ever have one of your Mages memorize Symbols or Power Word Stun or Kill?

[DrowElf86]

In responce to Xyx saying that all fighters are horrible against mages i would like to point out the flaw in his arguments being number 1 the inquisitor palidin he may cast super strong dispels instantly that only leaves up a globe of invulnerability spell which does not block him from slaughtering the mage with physical attacks and disrupting his spellcasting and he does this auticmaticly anyways if he has the holy avenger equiped also the wizzard slayer is effective after he gets passed the mirror images and stoneskin which he ca n easily do with 2 whirlwinds

[DrowElf86]

Also i forgot to mention in my last post as to jakers deffence of the thief class and by no means am I insulting thiefs (i beat the game as a swashbuckler) MONKS may disarm traps a mage can open chests and dispel illusions and a fighter backstabs with every hit i see no reason to have a thief if theres a monk in your party also clerics can find traps but they can disarm them[/list]

[DrowElf86]

In responce to Xyx saying that all fighters are horrible against mages i would like to point out the flaw in his arguments being number 1 the inquisitor palidin he may cast super strong dispels instantly that only leaves up a globe of invulnerability spell which does not block him from slaughtering the mage with physical attacks and disrupting his spellcasting and he does this auticmaticly anyways if he has the holy avenger equiped also the wizzard slayer is effective after he gets passed the mirror images and stoneskin which he ca n easily do with 2 whirlwinds

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Drow Elf:
<STRONG>In responce to Xyx saying that all fighters are horrible against mages i would like to point out the flaw in his arguments being number 1 the inquisitor palidin</STRONG>

The Inquisitor is the ultimate Mage killer (save for another Mage), and everything the Wizard Slayer should have been. Spell Immunity - Divination and Spell Immunity - Abjuration could still protect against his abilities, but no enemy Mage ever does that.

Originally posted by Drow Elf:
<STRONG>the wizzard slayer is effective after he gets passed the mirror images and stoneskin which he ca n easily do with 2 whirlwinds</STRONG>

Problem with the Wizard Slayer is that he will never get past the other protective spells, such as Protection from Magical Weapons... Ironically, the only chance a Wizard Slayer ever has to beat a wizard is by using the thing he despises most: magic. It takes magical weapons that deal elemental damage or the Book of Infinite Spells for True Sight to deal with (only a part of) a Mage's defensive arsenal.

[polaris]

I agree with Xyx on this....the Inquisitor is the best 'anti-Mage' in the game....and he fights as well as a fighter of the same level (albeit with a max of 2 dot specialization) to boot.

In addition, with Casomyr, your basic MR will be sitting at 75% before potions, et all. While this is not immunity, along with the great paladin saves, it is IMO the next best thing.

Are you sure that Bioware didn't get the Wizard-Slayer and the Inquisitor reversed?

-Polaris

[P.S. In all of ToB...even Mellisan....I have YET to see an enemy mage's spell protections last longer than a round against an inquisitor. I can NOT say that about any other character class....even the famous Kensai/Mage.]

[Xyx]

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>the Inquisitor is the best 'anti-Mage' in the game....</STRONG>

Nonono... the best 'anti-Mage' is another Mage. Or Sorcerer, of course. Three Chain Contingencied Horrid Wiltings take out every enemy Mage in the game faster than any Inquisitor could.

[polaris]

OK, I will agree that a Mage is good for taking on another mage, but IMO the Inquistitor is still better (albeit narrowly) on points:

1. Both magi can protect themselves against their own spells....an essential point.

2. With proper gear (like cloak of mirroring), direct offense is likely to be a waste of magic.

However there *is* no magical defense (other than spell immunity which NPC magi never seem to use) against the Inquisitor's double-strength dispell. Let me tell you that a fanatic wielding a T-H sword with 75% MR that just took down all your defenses in one fell swoop is a Mage's worst nightmare.....

-Polaris

[Dimensional]

some quick points

MOnks were (IMHO) the most powerful class at the end of SOA - however they were severly toned down for TOB - their magic resistance was suddenly capped, their no of attacks stoped going up and their speed is also capped (albeit at a higher level.) basicaly the monk gains no new adavantages in SOA Except +4 fists) which does meen that they begin to be outclassed as you get further into TOB

as to wizard slayers - in P@P (in games i played) the wizard slayers casting disruption is effective even through stoneskins and protection from magical wepons etc. so after one round of wirlwind attack a mage should become a sitting duck (i have no idea if this is the case if not well it shoud be.)

I have never played a wizard slayer but have played and loved my monk both party and solo through SOA and TOB but I have to agree that TOB takes him from his high pedastale and make him a more middling class (albeit a very versatile and fun one

)