First I want to say that I'm not a PnP D&D player. I've played PnP games in my youth and am very familiar with how they go and how much time is wasted rolling dice and adding up bonuses and what nots. I also know that it will take a lot more than what a computer can offer to match that level of depth and suggest that game makers never try.
That being said: I played, or tried to play BG, Pool of Radiance, Temple of Elemental Evil, and most of the other D&D type of games. I never finished those games because I found them to be boring and redundant. Not to mention their always seemed to be some learning curve that I didn't have the energy to overcome. It was too much work to play a game in a poorly graphically rendered environment to stick with it. I'm not saying the games were bad, but they weren't for me.
Now I still play NVWN 1 and love its smooth controls and for lack of a better phrase, slower pace. I liked the radial menu as it was easy to use. Yeah the henchmen were knuckleheads, but when I first started learning to play I needed them. After getting the hang of the game I quit using them and never looked back.
I alway felt that the henchmen were there for me to heal and keep alive and thusly out of harm's way. Sort of a distraction meant to keep me alive while I leanred. I loved the real time play too; turn based games took way tooooo looonnnnnggg to play. Two hours worth of Elemental Evil was the equivalent of six months in the game's world. I always seemed to be recuperating from some dang spider bite or bird attack.
Now with NVWN2: I like being able to rest up after a smack down. If I'm feeling lucky I wade into the next one without resting or I leave and try it fresh. But! I agree with the idea of the difficulty level being tied to rest cycles. The higher the fewer.
I love the visuals, but even with my rig, which is pretty decent btw, I still get some cruddy frame rates and have experienced a lot of battles where the bad guys float over the ground and slide in front of me instead of moving their legs to do so. I've also encountered a frustrating AI failure in one of my NPCs. She refused to follow me no matter what I did. I couldn't get rid of her so to move on I had to play her, not the char I had created. Don't understand what that was all about. Hope the patch fixes it though.
Cut scenes: I play 4 to 5 chars at a time. I move one at a time to a way point, save and move the rest up in sequence; lets me compare the classes. I wish they would let us escape out of the cut scenes because I know them all by heart now. How many times does anybody need to listen to Slann speak? Uggh.
But the game is bloody beautiful to look at and that is what makes it for me. Its half the reason I tried to keep playing Temple of Evil so long. I loved the way it looked. I like the voice acting and scripts and the story is very interesting in and of itself.
If I could change anything or ask for changes to be made I'd say: AI tweaks, make my NPCs follow like they should and not blunder after every bad guy they see unless they've been ordered to.
More heads with feminine features instead of the Ukranian All-female weightlifter teams or deformed Vulcans we've been saddled with. Like women that look like women. Oh! And a change to that bloody Bard. He's so annoying that I want to TK him every time he speaks.
So, these are the opinions of a non-hardcore D&D gamer who knows next to nothing about the D&D rule sets and how to compare a video game to a PNP match in someone's basement.
If anyone decides that my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not a subject matter expert I encourage you to think again. Its the rank and file consumer that Obsidian hopes to attract with this game and if they do a large percentage of those gamers may drift over to the PnP version and keep classic D&D alive. Its an unyielding adherence to rote and doctrine that alienates newcomers and makes the Devs ignore us and our worthwhile opinions.
The trolls are so bad at the Bioware site that I can't stomach reading them and have never posted and probably never will. We need to present ourselves in a professional, intelligent manner if we are going to be heard at all. So if you must flame me remember that everytime you do another Dev says "I'm never going back to that site again."
Your thoughts on the game
This is one of the things you can control by right-clicking on the companion. At the bottom of the menu you should see an option to have the companion return to human form.Padawan wrote:Or, if they already fight as vermins (or anything similar), how can I retrieve their human shape?
SWC
Sir Edmund: "Should you obey the lord who asks you to put a village of innocents to the torch? Is that chivalrous? Is it noble?"
Me: "It's a great way to get promoted, I know that much."
Me: "It's a great way to get promoted, I know that much."
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Fljotsdale
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I started out hating the game. I found the interface and the camera deeply frustrating, and the way your companions crowd round when you are fighting, even on the FAR setting, and the ugly faces in char creation, and the blocky bodies, and the CONSTANT mini-cutscenes.
Well, I kept playing anyway. And I STILL hate all of the above, especially the *cussword* interface and the *cussword* camera.
But...
It's engrossing! Despite the faults. Nice interactions between your team - initially, anyway. They seem to have settled down at the moment (I'm just about to start the Merchant District in the city). And it looks like a decent storyline. And I like the side quests so far, too.
Up to now, I have had NO bug-type problems with the game, and have not patched it (- well, I can't, because my game comp isn't on-line...) nor felt the need for a patch. Yet.
Well, I kept playing anyway. And I STILL hate all of the above, especially the *cussword* interface and the *cussword* camera.
But...
It's engrossing! Despite the faults. Nice interactions between your team - initially, anyway. They seem to have settled down at the moment (I'm just about to start the Merchant District in the city). And it looks like a decent storyline. And I like the side quests so far, too.
Up to now, I have had NO bug-type problems with the game, and have not patched it (- well, I can't, because my game comp isn't on-line...) nor felt the need for a patch. Yet.
Leonard Cohen :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8VwvO0e ... re=related
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
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Fljotsdale
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Since she changes during battle, resting afterwards turns her back to normal, too.swcarter wrote:This is one of the things you can control by right-clicking on the companion. At the bottom of the menu you should see an option to have the companion return to human form.
SWC
Leonard Cohen :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8VwvO0e ... re=related
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
First, allow one newbie to greet another newbie on this forum.lugnut wrote:If I could change anything or ask for changes to be made I'd say: AI tweaks, make my NPCs follow like they should and not blunder after every bad guy they see unless they've been ordered to.
More heads with feminine features instead of the Ukranian All-female weightlifter teams or deformed Vulcans we've been saddled with. Like women that look like women. Oh! And a change to that bloody Bard. He's so annoying that I want to TK him every time he speaks.
...
If anyone decides that my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not a subject matter expert I encourage you to think again. Its the rank and file consumer that Obsidian hopes to attract with this game and if they do a large percentage of those gamers may drift over to the PnP version and keep classic D&D alive. Its an unyielding adherence to rote and doctrine that alienates newcomers and makes the Devs ignore us and our worthwhile opinions.
The trolls are so bad at the Bioware site that I can't stomach reading them and have never posted and probably never will. We need to present ourselves in a professional, intelligent manner if we are going to be heard at all. So if you must flame me remember that everytime you do another Dev says "I'm never going back to that site again."
And at least when it comes to me, your opinion matters. Particularly when I agree with you
At yes, how the party follows and engages the combat, terrible. E.g. we have plenty of fun in particular room (like 8-12 opponents) when one spots another group down the corridor and just runs into it. Arghh...
I always admire people who put so much effort in the (computer) games. It's incredible to play the same game with so many different characters, and trying all these possibilities. I bow to you all...
I did figure that out already, but thank you. I am trying to rest as little as possible. But I did figure out also this right-click movement over another character in my party, that opens another menu.Fljotsdale wrote:Since she changes during battle, resting afterwards turns her back to normal, too.
And already started to hate it. Broadcast command: "Hold your ground" is broadcasted!!!
How can I persuade my (Ukrainian) sorcerer to stay out of the battle, whilst all other are deeply involved into it? I would, of course, like that she has the possibility to cast spells. She may not be good looking, but she is useful.
Jump on my sword while you can, Evil.
I wont be as gentle.
I wont be as gentle.
Minsc - BG2 SoA
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Fljotsdale
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I wondered how that worked! So not very good, hey? Darn. I'll give it try, though. Thanks.
Leonard Cohen :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8VwvO0e ... re=related
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
I think the game idea has incredible potential but it just doesnt live up to it.
-its a bad role playing game. of course, the standard of computer rpg:s is pretty low, but still. if you compare with BG II (and partly BG I, though it lacked some flexibility too...but it felt more justified there), what those game has that NWN2 lack is some flexibility. The beginning in NWN2 just isnt plausible for a LOT of characters. the first thing I did was to note "yay, tiefling!", and made a tiefling rogue, a sneaky evil bastard. with red skin. but seriously, like a little village with ignorant farmers in the medieval times would accept someone with red skin, who does not constantly fight for acceptance. they would have just thrown me and the father outta the village a long time ago, or at least the would refuse to talk to me...something!
so the only character who can really fit in IMO is one who is very young (16 or so) and is about to leave the village and never return and just waits for the opportunity, or the good guy who wants to please his father.
what they should have done (and should do in basicly all RPG games) is to create at least 4 alternate story beginnings, so you can fit in characters in a better way. then they could piece it together with the main story, wouldnt be too hard..just need different motivation for different characters. which is the main problem for any DM, and what seperates a good one from a bad; to make sure the players will follow the story you made by choice and not by force.
-the NPC intelligence from your party members is better than in the first game but still pretty bad. you should have 10 times the option you have now, to fine tune how your NPCs act in combat (including "wait here until I have killed everyone myself". or can you actually do that? I couldnt figure out how). like, when I, the rogue, jumps out of stealth and stabs the leader in the back, you, the wizard, cast a a fireball on all those archers over there, and then do a summoning III spell to delay those knights over there, so I can escape and then we regroup.
this is obviously a game that is mainly a multiplayer game, the advantage you get from being able to communicate within the party is huge, but there is no such thing in the single player game. of course there is no such thing in BG either, but there they succeeded in getting a feeling like there was IMO. in NWN2 they have higher goals but fail to reach them.
not to mension too much hack n slash, its still a diablo copy imo just more sofisticated. why cant you "sneak past the dragon to save the princess, instead of killing him in a head on battle".
-its a bad role playing game. of course, the standard of computer rpg:s is pretty low, but still. if you compare with BG II (and partly BG I, though it lacked some flexibility too...but it felt more justified there), what those game has that NWN2 lack is some flexibility. The beginning in NWN2 just isnt plausible for a LOT of characters. the first thing I did was to note "yay, tiefling!", and made a tiefling rogue, a sneaky evil bastard. with red skin. but seriously, like a little village with ignorant farmers in the medieval times would accept someone with red skin, who does not constantly fight for acceptance. they would have just thrown me and the father outta the village a long time ago, or at least the would refuse to talk to me...something!
so the only character who can really fit in IMO is one who is very young (16 or so) and is about to leave the village and never return and just waits for the opportunity, or the good guy who wants to please his father.
what they should have done (and should do in basicly all RPG games) is to create at least 4 alternate story beginnings, so you can fit in characters in a better way. then they could piece it together with the main story, wouldnt be too hard..just need different motivation for different characters. which is the main problem for any DM, and what seperates a good one from a bad; to make sure the players will follow the story you made by choice and not by force.
-the NPC intelligence from your party members is better than in the first game but still pretty bad. you should have 10 times the option you have now, to fine tune how your NPCs act in combat (including "wait here until I have killed everyone myself". or can you actually do that? I couldnt figure out how). like, when I, the rogue, jumps out of stealth and stabs the leader in the back, you, the wizard, cast a a fireball on all those archers over there, and then do a summoning III spell to delay those knights over there, so I can escape and then we regroup.
this is obviously a game that is mainly a multiplayer game, the advantage you get from being able to communicate within the party is huge, but there is no such thing in the single player game. of course there is no such thing in BG either, but there they succeeded in getting a feeling like there was IMO. in NWN2 they have higher goals but fail to reach them.
not to mension too much hack n slash, its still a diablo copy imo just more sofisticated. why cant you "sneak past the dragon to save the princess, instead of killing him in a head on battle".
If you click and hold the right mouse button on the playing area, you can broadcast some commands to your companions, including for them to stand their ground.Helix wrote:-the NPC intelligence from your party members is better than in the first game but still pretty bad. you should have 10 times the option you have now, to fine tune how your NPCs act in combat (including "wait here until I have killed everyone myself". or can you actually do that? I couldnt figure out how).
SWC
Sir Edmund: "Should you obey the lord who asks you to put a village of innocents to the torch? Is that chivalrous? Is it noble?"
Me: "It's a great way to get promoted, I know that much."
Me: "It's a great way to get promoted, I know that much."
Helix wrote:I think the game idea has incredible potential but it just doesnt live up to it.
-its a bad role playing game. of course, the standard of computer rpg:s is pretty low, but still. if you compare with BG II (and partly BG I, though it lacked some flexibility too...but it felt more justified there), what those game has that NWN2 lack is some flexibility. The beginning in NWN2 just isnt plausible for a LOT of characters. the first thing I did was to note "yay, tiefling!", and made a tiefling rogue, a sneaky evil bastard. with red skin. but seriously, like a little village with ignorant farmers in the medieval times would accept someone with red skin, who does not constantly fight for acceptance. they would have just thrown me and the father outta the village a long time ago, or at least the would refuse to talk to me...something!
so the only character who can really fit in IMO is one who is very young (16 or so) and is about to leave the village and never return and just waits for the opportunity, or the good guy who wants to please his father.
what they should have done (and should do in basicly all RPG games) is to create at least 4 alternate story beginnings, so you can fit in characters in a better way. then they could piece it together with the main story, wouldnt be too hard..just need different motivation for different characters. which is the main problem for any DM, and what seperates a good one from a bad; to make sure the players will follow the story you made by choice and not by force.
-the NPC intelligence from your party members is better than in the first game but still pretty bad. you should have 10 times the option you have now, to fine tune how your NPCs act in combat (including "wait here until I have killed everyone myself". or can you actually do that? I couldnt figure out how). this is obviously a game that is mainly a multiplayer game.
not to mension too much hack n slash, its still a diablo copy imo just more sofisticated. why cant you "sneak past the dragon to save the princess, instead of killing him in a head on battle".
As I recall the game you mentioned (bg1), started exactly the same. Gorion, remember? Your stepfather in the castle, hmm? Or bg2? Starting in a cell? No matter if you were a cleric of cyric, you were in that castle side by side with good old gorion, or in the cell, and had to fight your way out no matter what. So that was good and justified, when this is not?
And if you read it, it is a tutorial. Not the start of the game, but the tutorial. In which imho it excels, easily it was the most entertaining tutorial I ever had.
Also the game is really good. What I terribly missed in bg2 (which is one of my favourite crpgs) was the characters. Surely they were entertaining and they had some background if you cared to read it. But they did not have any other aim than to travel with you obidiently. Here I found characters, which had their own aims, thinking, etc. The other positive and negative properties are said before.
The only thing I miss is the lack of solo play, but that's jut me.
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Fljotsdale
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Hiya, Lugnut. Only just noticed the above bit of your earlier post - and I wonder if you tried the talking option on her? I ask because I once had the same problem, but talking to the guy and answering his question fixed it.I've also encountered a frustrating AI failure in one of my NPCs. She refused to follow me no matter what I did. I couldn't get rid of her so to move on I had to play her, not the char I had created. Don't understand what that was all about. Hope the patch fixes it though.
Leonard Cohen :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8VwvO0e ... re=related
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
time for a change
"Dogs come when they're called. Cats take a message and get back to you."
thought id post another opinion now that i have completed it once through.
Really enjoyed the dialogue, the plot whilst fairly unoriginal was still enjoyable. Love the visual effects for the spells, love the companion concept.
Really didn't enjoy the dodgy journal updates or lack there of during certain missions. definately did not enjoy the companion ai especially that in certain circumstanse puppet mode and 'do not use abilities' do not work. also dont like the export bug or ease at which you can break a cutscene and have to reload.
I still enjoyed the game enough to be playing it again as an evil character (which so far has proven much more fun) and i look forward to any expansions but i cant deny i feel it was all a bit rushed, there are simply too many rough edges for them not to have noticed at least a few of them before release.
Really enjoyed the dialogue, the plot whilst fairly unoriginal was still enjoyable. Love the visual effects for the spells, love the companion concept.
Really didn't enjoy the dodgy journal updates or lack there of during certain missions. definately did not enjoy the companion ai especially that in certain circumstanse puppet mode and 'do not use abilities' do not work. also dont like the export bug or ease at which you can break a cutscene and have to reload.
I still enjoyed the game enough to be playing it again as an evil character (which so far has proven much more fun) and i look forward to any expansions but i cant deny i feel it was all a bit rushed, there are simply too many rough edges for them not to have noticed at least a few of them before release.
Well, I wasn't able to actually finish the game due to a bug.. but I got pretty damn close. I don't believe I've recently spend so much time on a single game. Unfortunately the spending time versus rewarding experience ratio wasn't working out for me well, so I don't think I'll be trying this again any time soon.
Things that troubled me were the AI -its uncanny ability to get stuck everywhere, too much time between autosaves and the fact that the depth to the NPC's individual quests limited itself to the main storyline. I went out on alimb getting a LOT of influence for some of them, but it barely opened up any options. One in particular didn't do anything at all until the very last stage of the game. I had him with me all the time, figuring something would open up for him.
I really liked building the Keep. It reminded of TES Morrowind: Bloodmoon and I'll admit I like NWN2's execution of the idea better. I didn't like how I had to browse around Lt Kana's dialogue menu all the time to see if something had changed (and walking in and out of my castle countless times to update the development tree). I certainly think a few RTS elements would have done the building procedure good here.
I tried a few online games, but I couldn't get a feeling for it. It was a more straightforward NWN1-like experience, I didn't see or do anything particularly interesting.
Oh and there is that other complaint -this one really started to bug me during the siege at the third chapter. Why does every other fantasy RPG have to copy every interesting plot element from the Lord of the Rings? They already have the WOTC licence, copy names such as Mithril and whatnot, all crimes onto themselves, but no.. that wasn't enough. Do they TRY to not come up with an original storyline? Does the fantasy RPG genre simply mean "cheap ripoff" nowadays? More than ever do I feel like playing Fallout right now. =/
Things that troubled me were the AI -its uncanny ability to get stuck everywhere, too much time between autosaves and the fact that the depth to the NPC's individual quests limited itself to the main storyline. I went out on alimb getting a LOT of influence for some of them, but it barely opened up any options. One in particular didn't do anything at all until the very last stage of the game. I had him with me all the time, figuring something would open up for him.
I really liked building the Keep. It reminded of TES Morrowind: Bloodmoon and I'll admit I like NWN2's execution of the idea better. I didn't like how I had to browse around Lt Kana's dialogue menu all the time to see if something had changed (and walking in and out of my castle countless times to update the development tree). I certainly think a few RTS elements would have done the building procedure good here.
I tried a few online games, but I couldn't get a feeling for it. It was a more straightforward NWN1-like experience, I didn't see or do anything particularly interesting.
Oh and there is that other complaint -this one really started to bug me during the siege at the third chapter. Why does every other fantasy RPG have to copy every interesting plot element from the Lord of the Rings? They already have the WOTC licence, copy names such as Mithril and whatnot, all crimes onto themselves, but no.. that wasn't enough. Do they TRY to not come up with an original storyline? Does the fantasy RPG genre simply mean "cheap ripoff" nowadays? More than ever do I feel like playing Fallout right now. =/
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
I'm liking it a fair bit more than I thought I would, actually. I played NWN 1 until about halfway trough the third expansion ... when I decided that it had be come so repetitious it no longer held any interest. I kind of thought NWN 2 was going to be the same game with a face lift - but was pleasantly surprised. So far (I'm just starting Act II), it's been very engaging.
I think the graphics are excellent; as good as can be expected in a game without needing to have a top-of-the-line rig. My machine is on the high end of mid-range, and it runs perfectly and looks great. Yeah, there are some warts, but not enough that they get in the way.
I feel much more like I am my character in this than in NWN 1. I also feel more like the companions are real people, and not just extra equipment. I found myself getting annoyed when I had to swap one companion out for another, because I got attached to the old one.
My number one complaint is the collision code. I can live with the sometimes goofy AI - I chalk it up to idiosyncrasies of my companions. I can work with that. But I am intensely frustrated with the fact that they block each other so easily. Fighting a group of bad guys in a house, I found that my lead character would step into a doorway and get swarmed, and the companions would stand there behind him, watching him get cut down because they couldn't run past him, and wouldn't let him back down. Or, I would run ahead to attack a group, and find my party all way back behind me and not fighting, because one of them was stuck on an invisible bump, and the rest stuck behind. They need to dramatically reduce the collision radius. It's bad enough that the companions do stupid things, but when they aren't doing what you expect (stupid or not), you can't plan for it or work with it.
Number two complaint is movement. I haven't tried WASD, because, frankly, I hate keyboard movement. But click-to-move stinks too. I find my character constantly running to some point in the distance because I clicked to attack an enemy, and the enemy moved at the last second, causing me to click in the background someplace. Then, I have to pan the camera around again, find the enemy, and try again. What is really needed is a movement scheme like MMO's use, where you can hold both mouse buttons and your character moves forward, then move the mouse to turn. It's the most intuitive and responsive way to control a character, and I sorely miss it when I switch to one of these games for a spell.
Number three is the artificial reliance on pausing battle. You really should be able to plan your battle, issue your commands, and fight it out real time. It absolutely kills the RP immersion whenever you have to pause to select a potion, or get a companion to cast a specific spell, or to get a character to attack a specific target at a specific time. But it's also nearly impossible to play your party well without doing it.
I think the graphics are excellent; as good as can be expected in a game without needing to have a top-of-the-line rig. My machine is on the high end of mid-range, and it runs perfectly and looks great. Yeah, there are some warts, but not enough that they get in the way.
I feel much more like I am my character in this than in NWN 1. I also feel more like the companions are real people, and not just extra equipment. I found myself getting annoyed when I had to swap one companion out for another, because I got attached to the old one.
My number one complaint is the collision code. I can live with the sometimes goofy AI - I chalk it up to idiosyncrasies of my companions. I can work with that. But I am intensely frustrated with the fact that they block each other so easily. Fighting a group of bad guys in a house, I found that my lead character would step into a doorway and get swarmed, and the companions would stand there behind him, watching him get cut down because they couldn't run past him, and wouldn't let him back down. Or, I would run ahead to attack a group, and find my party all way back behind me and not fighting, because one of them was stuck on an invisible bump, and the rest stuck behind. They need to dramatically reduce the collision radius. It's bad enough that the companions do stupid things, but when they aren't doing what you expect (stupid or not), you can't plan for it or work with it.
Number two complaint is movement. I haven't tried WASD, because, frankly, I hate keyboard movement. But click-to-move stinks too. I find my character constantly running to some point in the distance because I clicked to attack an enemy, and the enemy moved at the last second, causing me to click in the background someplace. Then, I have to pan the camera around again, find the enemy, and try again. What is really needed is a movement scheme like MMO's use, where you can hold both mouse buttons and your character moves forward, then move the mouse to turn. It's the most intuitive and responsive way to control a character, and I sorely miss it when I switch to one of these games for a spell.
Number three is the artificial reliance on pausing battle. You really should be able to plan your battle, issue your commands, and fight it out real time. It absolutely kills the RP immersion whenever you have to pause to select a potion, or get a companion to cast a specific spell, or to get a character to attack a specific target at a specific time. But it's also nearly impossible to play your party well without doing it.
I've played it for a couple of days now and somehow I'm regretting the purchase of it. Yes, NPC interaction is well done, dialogue is good enough and there are some nice choices and consequences...but the combat is spoiling the fun. It's dull and boring and even playing different classes doesn't make much of a difference to me. It wouldn't be all that bad if nearly all quests didn't center on fighting. Or if fights were slightly challenging, needed strategies or tactics. But so far all I need to do is randomly pick out an enemy and keep on feeding healing potions to my minions. Hooray.
To keep a long and sad story short, here are my pros and cons.
Pros:
NPC interaction, NPCs with personalities, some nice, not too black and white choices, good writing, dialogue skills, combat sometimes optional
Cons:
Boring combat, quests *overly* centering on combat, quests following the same dull scheme
Doesn't look all that bad? If the game wasn't 80% fighting it definitely wouldn't...hopefully it gets better towards the end. The story isn't very compelling either but as I heard, that will change, so that's what's keeping me playing right now. Ahh, man, so much about Obsidian Entertainment...luckily the hopes weren't all that high (this time).
EDIT:
After playing on a bit I'm eager to take back some of my criticism. Combat gets much more challenging and actually tactics are needed. NPC interaction gets even better and the quests are by far more interesting and versatile. Story is turning in a nice direction. Ahh, man, so much about prematurely made judgements.
To keep a long and sad story short, here are my pros and cons.
Pros:
NPC interaction, NPCs with personalities, some nice, not too black and white choices, good writing, dialogue skills, combat sometimes optional
Cons:
Boring combat, quests *overly* centering on combat, quests following the same dull scheme
Doesn't look all that bad? If the game wasn't 80% fighting it definitely wouldn't...hopefully it gets better towards the end. The story isn't very compelling either but as I heard, that will change, so that's what's keeping me playing right now. Ahh, man, so much about Obsidian Entertainment...luckily the hopes weren't all that high (this time).
EDIT:
After playing on a bit I'm eager to take back some of my criticism. Combat gets much more challenging and actually tactics are needed. NPC interaction gets even better and the quests are by far more interesting and versatile. Story is turning in a nice direction. Ahh, man, so much about prematurely made judgements.
"Some people say that I must be a terrible person, but it’s not true. I have the heart of a young boy in a jar on my desk."
-Stephen King
-Stephen King
-
Ningengirai
- Posts: 303
- Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:43 pm
- Location: Germany
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This isn't going to be a happy comment.
I finished the game today with a wizard, and have yet to finish it with a warlock. Perhaps different classes lead to different experiences, but I am not a happy camper.
I don't consider the points I list to be a spoiler, but proceed with caution. Frankly, while the game doesn't outright suck, there are a lot of things that could be better:
1. Henchmen AI. My god, whoever came up with this obviously doesn't know what good AI is. You think NWN1's henchmen AI left something to be desired? Don't even get me started on NWN2 henchmen AI. I've read on countless websites that the henchmen AI would be improved. It's not.
- tank henchmen standing around doing nothing while I'm being eviscerated. Why? I have no idea. Khelgar once stood a step behind me for almost an entire fight, until I actually made him the active character and moved him around my character. And no, there was nothing on either side of us that could have prevented him from doing so in the first place. In NWN1, at least the tanks almost ran straight over you if they wanted to get to the bad guys.
- henchmen running out of ammo if they're using ranged weapons will stand around doing nothing, even if there's a perfectly good 'Longsword of NUKE FROM ORBIT +200' in their inventory. I have to manually switch to them and change the weapon myself, all the while staring at a long string of 'Out of ammo' messages above that character's head. But hey, to even it out, characters with ranged weapons don't automatically switch to melee weapons, either, if they're standing in the middle of the mob.
- spellcasting henchmen turning off defensive casting as soon as they're not directly controlled or not in puppet mode. Try doing this while playing the game on Hardcore Setting and sit back and enjoy watching your company die because a certain sorceress loves to torch everything with area damage spells.
- spellcasting henchmen will, unless you turn on overkill casting mode in the behaviour tab, cast some of the most inane spell choices I've seen. The same goes for the druid, who shapeshifts even at low levels, where her spells would be of more use as buffs to others. The same goes for my Warlock if we're in battle and I switch to another character. Unless I turn on overkill casting, my Warlock tends to stand around casting that one invisibility spell on herself, or Tenacious Plague - against Blade Golems, for example. Veeeery useful. Not.
- henchmen using Potions of Heal even if they're at 70% health. I love to give my henchmen potions because I know they will use them. I did that in NWN1 as soon as I was able to. Did they change anything about the fact that in NWN1, henchmen guzzled down ten potions while I was being eviscerated? Nope. Until you come to a certain merchant, Potions of Heal are damn hard to come by, and I've learned to not give my henchmen any. If it comes down to it, I pause the game, drag one from me to their inventory, and then have them use it.
- unless I directly controlled my tiefling rogue, she bull-rushed enemies, thus making no use of her sneak attack. I let her die a lot just to pay her back for it.
2. The UI. Could it be anymore clunky? Could it be any more counterintuitive? Why can't I drag group commands to the quickbar - and why do I have 100+ quickbar slots if I can't access them quickly but have to use the mouse to scroll through them? Why can't I move the Quickcast but almost everything else? Did we really need those squiggly things around the menus? Who came up with a menu delay that I can't set to "0" by default - and if I set it to "0", why does the game not remember my choice?
3. Why did this game have a 85+ MB patch almost immediately after release if so many bugs remain? Cutscenes don't trigger. Certain events don't trigger if you don't approach them from the right angle, and I mean that literally ( spoiler: ). I have a highend computer that by far exceeds the system requirements for the game, but I've had nearly 10 total game crashes while transitioning from one screen to the next.
4. Why does this game generate 80-100 MB savegame files?
5. Why is this game such a resource hog, period? Is it because it was written with .Net 2.0? Frankly, I don't experience reduced FPS, but the ratio of cool graphics vs. resources used does not add up. The graphics are honestly not that cool. The load times between screens are abysmal. The time it takes for a quicksave ends up making the quicksave a 'trip to bathroom, with sidetrip to kitchen for snack'-save ( exaggerating here, but come on - those saves weren't quick ).
6. I ended up absolutely hating the linear scripting in the end. I could have played Urrhar the Slayer Of Millions and still be accepted as one of Neverwinter's heroes. I could not attack friendlies. Try playing an evil-aligned character - you're forced to make good choices. Choices that I thought would shift my alignment toward Chaotic suddenly gave me Evil points. Since when does asking for a reward make my character evil? Spoiler:
7. There was no feeling of being an explorer. Yes, I'm on a mission, and yes, it'd be good if I go to point B relatively quick, but I want to explore the way FROM point A to point B. The area you can explore is tiny - and there's no chance of getting lost, either, because there is only ONE way you can go. There was no element of surprise - a ranger with a relatively high survival skill showed every single enemy on the mini-map, and that mini-map conveniently showed every place I had to visit. Heck, it even showed, on one occasion, something I had to pick up for a quest. Sure, I can disable the map and consult it only when I need it - but there wasn't really any area in the game where I could get lost because the different locations you travel to are very small.
There were no houses I could enter unless they had to do something with the plot. There was no feeling of travelling, period. Once you cleared out an area, no random encounters, so revisiting any place becomes a moot point. I felt like being handed a map with all the relevant locations clearly marked and a nice button to make sure I got there, no detours, no nothing. There was no sense of time passing.
8. Call me superfluous, but some of those faces at character creation are outright scary, and not in a good way. The same goes for the hair. In fact, the hair is even more scary than the faces. Why they felt the need to restrict colours for hair and eyebrows is beyond me, too. If this baby ever makes it into decent multiplayer, we're all going to meet doubles of ourselves.
9. Most of the heavy armour looked the same, only with different colours. Also, and this is class-specific: apparently there is nothing Warlock-specific when it comes to armor. Sure, they can wear Light Armor, but it's not the same.
10. It's nice that all my equipment comes in neatly squared, illegible icons. Really. Instead of gazing in awe at that Crossbow of the Unicorn I managed to wrestle from the hands of the Ogre Mage of Pwnage, I now stare at... something. Wait, let me mouse-over so I can tell.
11. Spell animations. They look bad. They looked better in NWN1. Again with the Wow!graphics they promised, but I'm not so much wow!ed but a little disappointed. Same with Great Cleave.
12. Emotes are almost non-existant. 'nuff said.
13. The romance options. Ugh. Double-ugh if you play a character that's completely opposed to what your two romance options are. The two romance options that would have been interesting and NOT predictable are incidentally the two people who can end up betraying you - and in one case, if they don't betray you, they still leave, no matter how high your influence score with them is in the end. Makes no sense to me at all.
14. Replayability. For me, there is almost none. The only thing I'm now interested in is trying out a few builds, but the storyline itself is so... bland that I'm almost not willing to invest the time.
15. Online gaming. Why are we required to download giant files in order to even join a server? Every time the DMs update their files, we have to update ours, too - and with the way the relatively small areas of the OC took so much time to load, I don't forsee anyone building persistent worlds that are any larger than that without turning them into 1.5 gigabyte downloads.
16. There were too many cutscenes for my tastes. At times it felt more like watching a movie with occasionally clicking a button than actually playing.
Do I hate everything about the game? Not at all. The henchmen had interesting personalities and some conversations between your character and them, or even between them, are outright funny. The keep was a great idea.
I admit that my expectations were probably sky-high, and that I now just feel disappointed. Too many bugs, too many system resources hogged for a game that's honestly not that great graphic-wise, too linear and predictable a storyline. I'm still hoping that the next patches will smooth out the bugs, maybe do something about the resource-hogging. This is almost a re-run of NWN1, where the expansions ended up being better than the OC, but NWN2 almost feels like a step back instead of forward.
I finished the game today with a wizard, and have yet to finish it with a warlock. Perhaps different classes lead to different experiences, but I am not a happy camper.
I don't consider the points I list to be a spoiler, but proceed with caution. Frankly, while the game doesn't outright suck, there are a lot of things that could be better:
1. Henchmen AI. My god, whoever came up with this obviously doesn't know what good AI is. You think NWN1's henchmen AI left something to be desired? Don't even get me started on NWN2 henchmen AI. I've read on countless websites that the henchmen AI would be improved. It's not.
- tank henchmen standing around doing nothing while I'm being eviscerated. Why? I have no idea. Khelgar once stood a step behind me for almost an entire fight, until I actually made him the active character and moved him around my character. And no, there was nothing on either side of us that could have prevented him from doing so in the first place. In NWN1, at least the tanks almost ran straight over you if they wanted to get to the bad guys.
- henchmen running out of ammo if they're using ranged weapons will stand around doing nothing, even if there's a perfectly good 'Longsword of NUKE FROM ORBIT +200' in their inventory. I have to manually switch to them and change the weapon myself, all the while staring at a long string of 'Out of ammo' messages above that character's head. But hey, to even it out, characters with ranged weapons don't automatically switch to melee weapons, either, if they're standing in the middle of the mob.
- spellcasting henchmen turning off defensive casting as soon as they're not directly controlled or not in puppet mode. Try doing this while playing the game on Hardcore Setting and sit back and enjoy watching your company die because a certain sorceress loves to torch everything with area damage spells.
- spellcasting henchmen will, unless you turn on overkill casting mode in the behaviour tab, cast some of the most inane spell choices I've seen. The same goes for the druid, who shapeshifts even at low levels, where her spells would be of more use as buffs to others. The same goes for my Warlock if we're in battle and I switch to another character. Unless I turn on overkill casting, my Warlock tends to stand around casting that one invisibility spell on herself, or Tenacious Plague - against Blade Golems, for example. Veeeery useful. Not.
- henchmen using Potions of Heal even if they're at 70% health. I love to give my henchmen potions because I know they will use them. I did that in NWN1 as soon as I was able to. Did they change anything about the fact that in NWN1, henchmen guzzled down ten potions while I was being eviscerated? Nope. Until you come to a certain merchant, Potions of Heal are damn hard to come by, and I've learned to not give my henchmen any. If it comes down to it, I pause the game, drag one from me to their inventory, and then have them use it.
- unless I directly controlled my tiefling rogue, she bull-rushed enemies, thus making no use of her sneak attack. I let her die a lot just to pay her back for it.
2. The UI. Could it be anymore clunky? Could it be any more counterintuitive? Why can't I drag group commands to the quickbar - and why do I have 100+ quickbar slots if I can't access them quickly but have to use the mouse to scroll through them? Why can't I move the Quickcast but almost everything else? Did we really need those squiggly things around the menus? Who came up with a menu delay that I can't set to "0" by default - and if I set it to "0", why does the game not remember my choice?
3. Why did this game have a 85+ MB patch almost immediately after release if so many bugs remain? Cutscenes don't trigger. Certain events don't trigger if you don't approach them from the right angle, and I mean that literally ( spoiler:
Spoiler
In Neverwinter, I wanted to sneak around that group of watchmen in the backalley... and I did. They just stood there. It was as if they didn't see me. I walked right through them from the back and only when I stood facing them did they react to me.
4. Why does this game generate 80-100 MB savegame files?
5. Why is this game such a resource hog, period? Is it because it was written with .Net 2.0? Frankly, I don't experience reduced FPS, but the ratio of cool graphics vs. resources used does not add up. The graphics are honestly not that cool. The load times between screens are abysmal. The time it takes for a quicksave ends up making the quicksave a 'trip to bathroom, with sidetrip to kitchen for snack'-save ( exaggerating here, but come on - those saves weren't quick ).
6. I ended up absolutely hating the linear scripting in the end. I could have played Urrhar the Slayer Of Millions and still be accepted as one of Neverwinter's heroes. I could not attack friendlies. Try playing an evil-aligned character - you're forced to make good choices. Choices that I thought would shift my alignment toward Chaotic suddenly gave me Evil points. Since when does asking for a reward make my character evil? Spoiler:
Spoiler
My Warlock is Chaotic Evil and Casavir just declared his undying love and loyalty to her under the star-spangled sky of Crossroad Keep. Bwah? Also, apparently burning down the Watch building in the Docks isn't really evil if you tell people to get out... yeah. Right.
There were no houses I could enter unless they had to do something with the plot. There was no feeling of travelling, period. Once you cleared out an area, no random encounters, so revisiting any place becomes a moot point. I felt like being handed a map with all the relevant locations clearly marked and a nice button to make sure I got there, no detours, no nothing. There was no sense of time passing.
8. Call me superfluous, but some of those faces at character creation are outright scary, and not in a good way. The same goes for the hair. In fact, the hair is even more scary than the faces. Why they felt the need to restrict colours for hair and eyebrows is beyond me, too. If this baby ever makes it into decent multiplayer, we're all going to meet doubles of ourselves.
9. Most of the heavy armour looked the same, only with different colours. Also, and this is class-specific: apparently there is nothing Warlock-specific when it comes to armor. Sure, they can wear Light Armor, but it's not the same.
10. It's nice that all my equipment comes in neatly squared, illegible icons. Really. Instead of gazing in awe at that Crossbow of the Unicorn I managed to wrestle from the hands of the Ogre Mage of Pwnage, I now stare at... something. Wait, let me mouse-over so I can tell.
11. Spell animations. They look bad. They looked better in NWN1. Again with the Wow!graphics they promised, but I'm not so much wow!ed but a little disappointed. Same with Great Cleave.
12. Emotes are almost non-existant. 'nuff said.
13. The romance options. Ugh. Double-ugh if you play a character that's completely opposed to what your two romance options are. The two romance options that would have been interesting and NOT predictable are incidentally the two people who can end up betraying you - and in one case, if they don't betray you, they still leave, no matter how high your influence score with them is in the end. Makes no sense to me at all.
14. Replayability. For me, there is almost none. The only thing I'm now interested in is trying out a few builds, but the storyline itself is so... bland that I'm almost not willing to invest the time.
15. Online gaming. Why are we required to download giant files in order to even join a server? Every time the DMs update their files, we have to update ours, too - and with the way the relatively small areas of the OC took so much time to load, I don't forsee anyone building persistent worlds that are any larger than that without turning them into 1.5 gigabyte downloads.
16. There were too many cutscenes for my tastes. At times it felt more like watching a movie with occasionally clicking a button than actually playing.
Do I hate everything about the game? Not at all. The henchmen had interesting personalities and some conversations between your character and them, or even between them, are outright funny. The keep was a great idea.
I admit that my expectations were probably sky-high, and that I now just feel disappointed. Too many bugs, too many system resources hogged for a game that's honestly not that great graphic-wise, too linear and predictable a storyline. I'm still hoping that the next patches will smooth out the bugs, maybe do something about the resource-hogging. This is almost a re-run of NWN1, where the expansions ended up being better than the OC, but NWN2 almost feels like a step back instead of forward.
{ De Die Nocteque }
@Ningengirai: Agree with almost all of your points, but would like to add some of my own. (Contains spoilers)
1. Can't damage neutral characters. In the heat of an important battle to retake the bridges leading to my keep I am obliged to march into an ambush, because my three spellcasters necessarily must talk to a dangerous enemy before they want to damage him with spells. Pathetic.
2. Storyline: Why are the bridges even there? I was fully aware that an army was marching on my keep, and I presume someone on the keep knew that there was bridges leading to it. It makes no sense whatsoever to wait with their destruction until they are in enemy posession. This is not an isolated case, the whole plot is littered with situations that just shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
3. NPCs: Why can't I get rid of them? There is no way I would keep Qara around if I had the choice. Or Neeshka. Or Grobnar. If they are unable to write a story that doesn't require all NPC to be present they should at least give a damn good reason why I would hang around someone who acts like a 5 year old.
4. The final battle against the king of shadows really makes the worst of the lousy AI. You have 329486 NPCs to take care of and every time the King teleports all of them loses target. You can choose between assigning them their target again one by one, or accept all the problems with the ai above.
5. Dialogue choice: Choosing between three slightly different ways of saying "Get the men up on the walls, my companions will be there too" isn't a big turn on, and more importantly isn't a real choice. Just annoying.
6. Good - Evil concept is as bad as ever. If I was completely ruthless man who only were after personal gain I would not tell everyone how much I despised them and that they were only tools for my ambitions. I would tell them exactly the same things I would if I was a nice person who cared about them. Why can't game makers realize that.
1. Can't damage neutral characters. In the heat of an important battle to retake the bridges leading to my keep I am obliged to march into an ambush, because my three spellcasters necessarily must talk to a dangerous enemy before they want to damage him with spells. Pathetic.
2. Storyline: Why are the bridges even there? I was fully aware that an army was marching on my keep, and I presume someone on the keep knew that there was bridges leading to it. It makes no sense whatsoever to wait with their destruction until they are in enemy posession. This is not an isolated case, the whole plot is littered with situations that just shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
3. NPCs: Why can't I get rid of them? There is no way I would keep Qara around if I had the choice. Or Neeshka. Or Grobnar. If they are unable to write a story that doesn't require all NPC to be present they should at least give a damn good reason why I would hang around someone who acts like a 5 year old.
4. The final battle against the king of shadows really makes the worst of the lousy AI. You have 329486 NPCs to take care of and every time the King teleports all of them loses target. You can choose between assigning them their target again one by one, or accept all the problems with the ai above.
5. Dialogue choice: Choosing between three slightly different ways of saying "Get the men up on the walls, my companions will be there too" isn't a big turn on, and more importantly isn't a real choice. Just annoying.
6. Good - Evil concept is as bad as ever. If I was completely ruthless man who only were after personal gain I would not tell everyone how much I despised them and that they were only tools for my ambitions. I would tell them exactly the same things I would if I was a nice person who cared about them. Why can't game makers realize that.
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
That I recall was explained in the story actually.Dottie wrote:<snip>
2. Storyline: Why are the bridges even there? I was fully aware that an army was marching on my keep, and I presume someone on the keep knew that there was bridges leading to it. It makes no sense whatsoever to wait with their destruction until they are in enemy posession. This is not an isolated case, the whole plot is littered with situations that just shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
<snip>
If memory serves I got some dialog which indicated it was an argument of attempting to hold the bridges vs. destroying them which both - militarywise - have pros and cons.... and that the guards were driven back, so that I do not see as any flaw in the game.
Insert signature here.
-
Ningengirai
- Posts: 303
- Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:43 pm
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
Not necessarily a flaw in the game story, Xandax, but a strategy flaw. It's the same reason why I think the battle at Crossroad Keep is a little... out there.
Lord Nasher, his big army, the Lord's Alliance ( including Waterdeep, I think ) were beaten by the shadow army, but I as a lonely Knight Captain with my ( at that point in the game ) measly 300 Greycloaks, could defeat them?
No wonder they need to rely on me to save their behinds. :laugh:
That particular game point doesn't overly bother me, but I think NWN1 OC made a lot more sense in that regard, in so far that at the beginning and throughout the end, you were more or less a single agent of Neverwinter slipping through the enemy's net and crippling them where it counted, instead of leading an army head-on to meet them.
Lord Nasher, his big army, the Lord's Alliance ( including Waterdeep, I think ) were beaten by the shadow army, but I as a lonely Knight Captain with my ( at that point in the game ) measly 300 Greycloaks, could defeat them?
No wonder they need to rely on me to save their behinds. :laugh:
That particular game point doesn't overly bother me, but I think NWN1 OC made a lot more sense in that regard, in so far that at the beginning and throughout the end, you were more or less a single agent of Neverwinter slipping through the enemy's net and crippling them where it counted, instead of leading an army head-on to meet them.
{ De Die Nocteque }
I see, as far as I recall I didn't get that dialouge.Xandax wrote:That I recall was explained in the story actually.
If memory serves I got some dialog which indicated it was an argument of attempting to hold the bridges vs. destroying them which both - militarywise - have pros and cons.... and that the guards were driven back, so that I do not see as any flaw in the game.
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun