How can you actually play a rogue?

[probo]

Well thanks for the criticalstrike info both and here I have made my very own lengthy comparison!

Fighter + greatsword vs rogue + dualwield shortswords damage calculation. This is imo a pretty fair comparison, feel free to add comments. Characters are obviously buffed. (More notes below.)

Fighter at level 10:
24 strength (+10 dmg)(7+ to hit)
Weapon Specialization (+2 dmg)
Weapon Focus (+1 to hit)
Greatsword average dmg 7
enchanted weapon +2 (+2 dmg) (+2 to hit)

Rogue at lvl 10:
24 dexterity (+7 to hit)
16 strength (+3 to damage, 1+ to offhand)
Sneak attack (+17,5 average dmg for first two attacks)
Shortsword average damage 3,5
Dualwield and improved Dualwield feats. (-2 to hit)
enchanted weapons +2 (+2 dmg) (+2 to hit)

Fighter does 21 damage per strike at 20/15 (95%chance/75%chance). Rogue does 8,5 / 6,5 dmg at +14/+9 (70%45%) - If an enemy has 20 armorclass.

Fighter:
Round 1: hit for 19,95+15,75=35,7
Round 2: hit for 19,95+15,75=35,7
etc..

Rogue:
Round 1: Sneak attack with 2 weapons ((8,5+17,5)*0,7)+((6,5+17,5)*0,45)=18,2+10,8=29 + (5,95+2,925)8,875=37,875
Round 2: Hit for 5,95+2,925+5,95+2,925=17,75
etc..

*sidenote*Wizard:
Round 1: threw empowered fireball for an average of 27 damage on 10 monsters and they all failed their save = 270


There are so many things that could or perhaps should be included in an analysis like this but I think this should be roughly correct. I am unsure if rogues get any to hit bonuses when sneakattacking or if they (or fighter) should have any other substantal bonus in this scenario.

Critical strikes are fully taken out of the equation as I am unsure of what damage types are included in them and it should also be noted that both the weapontypes have the same critical chance/modifier, so it should be possible to assume the benefits would be the same to both in this scenario?

The chance to hit in relation to damage propably cannot yield as easy damage calculation results as these if you were to measure it vs an opponent with damage reduction! But suffice to say the rogue would suffer more from DR.

[Magrus]

I had to reread this a few times before I remembered that some countries outside of the US use the " , " symbol for decimals when we use the " . " symbol instead. Makes a lot more sense now.

If the developers included flanking benefits, hitting a target from the side or behind when they are occupied should give you a +2 to hit, but not to damage. Meaning, if that is working in the game, your rogue if played properly, should be able to hit more often, and closer to what the fighter ends up with.

[probo]

Ahh, Im from sweden and we use ,

I think having to flank stuff belongs in the "things that makes me kill slower"

[Who Cares]

I think you are underpowering the rogue again.
When I get home I'll go for something similar as you posted but 11th level ranger vs rogue (to give the fighter class the extra attacks needed to keep up with the rogue).

On that topic I forgot to add 50% str bonus to that falchion (two handed weapon) adding 20 points of damage on the first example, easily compensated by handing magic weapons to the rogue .

Oh and you keep claiming that a rogue will suffer more from DR but that is not true. From 5th level the rogues sneak attack average damage lets him/her bypass DR 10 and only gets better over time, at 11th level a rogue sneak attack compensates on average for DR 20, at level 17 that rogue does enough sneak attack damage on average to bypass DR 30. Something fighters need criticals for to do (the str 30 falchion+5 wielder only does 28 points damage max, even a greatsword+5 would only result in damage if an 11 or 12 is thrown, note this is without the specialisation boni of +2/+4 damage).

[Who Cares]

Hmm I don't even have to do much to get damage better for the rogue in your example. The problem is still that you don't want to do any work not that the rogue is gimped.

All I need is a greater invisibility.
Then the damage of the rogue stays 37.785 without taking into account the +2 to hit that invisible gives nor taking into account the fact that opponents lose dexterity.
And you want to go with rapier/shortsword, that increases one of the two crit chances to 18-20 without costing anything.


About your side note, that is why mages tend to die with rogues around Evasion + hey look I found your kidney tends to do that.

[Magrus]

I think having to flank stuff belongs in the "things that makes me kill slower"

That's like saying memorizing spells slows you down when playing a caster, or equiping a weapon is making it more difficult to play a fighter.

[probo]

That's like saying memorizing spells slows you down when playing a caster, or equiping a weapon is making it more difficult to play a fighter.

I did actually say that too in this thread before, I said wizards are potent killers but fighters are faster killers because of the spell memorizing.

But ok it would seem that knockdown/improved knockdown or greater invis takes care of business for the rogue, but as per my comparison the damage bonus isnt really that great compared to a fighter even then, especially when you take into consideration immunities vs backstabs. And the rogue just wont have enough feats to get good dualwielding and improved knockdown very fast. The assassin does get greater invis but personally I would hate to have to rely on such a shortlived spell. But I guess you could cast a lengthened greater invis with your wizard onto your rogue! that would propably help alot, but then it feels like its the wizard that is doing half the work, but thats only my personal opinion.

[Magrus]

The point of a rogue is not to kill everything in sight. You are mistaking the purposes of your characters. The rogue is a skillful character. Meant to hide and scout out what is ahead, let you know if there are enemies or traps. To open locks and to disable traps, steal objects and the like. To sneak through hostile territory, kill a lone enemy silently, and then move out without being caught.

They are NOT made to be set into the middle of a melee, in any way, shape or form in their natural state. Sure, if you modify them and toss heavy armor, a shield and a longsword on one, they would be better at fighting in a battle. They simply aren't meant to do that though. That, is for barbarians and fighters to do. If you don't play a character properly, it's going to suck. Rogues are meant to be support characters, not the main person. Just like bards. If you want someone who deals damage in melee, get a fighter, barbarian, ranger. Take a cleric and use spells to turn him into a tank.

Rogues don't do well unless you go out of your way to aim them properly, like a sniper rifle. If you sneak towards the enemy, stab the wizard in the back, start the battle and run off to hide behind your tank, you did the whole group a big service. You can then wait out the battle until an opportunity presents itself for the rogue to go in again and deal a sneak attack without getting himself killed. If you want a brute that can hit and kill indiscriminately, grab a barbarian instead.

[probo]

Thats exactly the things I mentioned in the beginning of the topic. I said I was very sorry but I want to control my own main character and not my team. If they wanted me to control the whole team then they could have made it an option to select more than one character at a time like in BG2 or something.

No, I want to play it like its diablo or something, and im not entirely wrong in doing so seing as how much the game focuses on combat. The fact that the game focuses on combat this much might be the reason why fighter is best/easiest, while if you had to chose a class for splinter cell or hitman you would pick rogue. And in planescape torment an intelligent and charismatic character was the way to go since it was almost all talking, hehe.

But I guess you can play the rogue, but right now ill put my rogue on ice untill im bored of my asskicker halforc

[Who Cares]

That is the right attitude, play what you like.

They are NOT made to be set into the middle of a melee, in any way, shape or form in their natural state. Sure, if you modify them and toss heavy armor, a shield and a longsword on one, they would be better at fighting in a battle. They simply aren't meant to do that though. That, is for barbarians and fighters to do. If you don't play a character properly, it's going to suck. Rogues are meant to be support characters, not the main person. Just like bards. If you want someone who deals damage in melee, get a fighter, barbarian, ranger. Take a cleric and use spells to turn him into a tank.

My PnP rogue (10th level) disagrees
But then again I have been able to plan ahead and now he's power tripping, literally.
Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain), combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, weapon finesse.
Dex 16 + 2 for levels + 4 gloves of dexterity (for 6 AoO).
Minor ring of spell storing with 3 x enlarge, friendly wizard around with greater invisibility, a spiked chain of tripping (that enchantment is the only thing not to be found in the PHB/DMG).
Takes one round in combat to prepare and then a circle with diameter 50' centered on my rogue is a virtual death zone contigent on the enemy moving into it. Sad thing is that I did plan him to be backup and this was planned as crowd control incase someone would try to attack the sorcerer and/or wizard in the group.

[Magrus]

My PnP rogue (10th level) disagrees
But then again I have been able to plan ahead and now he's power tripping, literally.
Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain), combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, weapon finesse.
Dex 16 + 2 for levels + 4 gloves of dexterity (for 6 AoO).
Minor ring of spell storing with 3 x enlarge, friendly wizard around with greater invisibility, a spiked chain of tripping (that enchantment is the only thing not to be found in the PHB/DMG).
Takes one round in combat to prepare and then a circle with diameter 50' centered on my rogue is a virtual death zone contigent on the enemy moving into it. Sad thing is that I did plan him to be backup and this was planned as crowd control incase someone would try to attack the sorcerer and/or wizard in the group.

My point was, without modifying the rogue from his true purpose, he's not meant to be a melee fighter. You took 5 combat feats, as well as gave him specialized equipment meant for combat, and support spells from friendlys to get him there. That's different from your leather armor wearing and dagger wielding rogue that focuses on sneaking, isn't it? You basically made a fighter with sneak attack there.

[smass]

There are many ways to build a rogue. Thats what makes it my favorite class. For example:

- Smooth Talker/Agent with high charisma and great diplomacy and bluff skills
- Scout with high sneaking skills
- Rogue with high "use magic device" skills to make a hybrid scroll and wand using mage
- Bully/Brute rogue focusing on strength and combat skills
- Jack of all trades rogue that does a little bit of everything.
- Sneak attacking archer (great mixed with Ranger that focuses on archery)
- Asassin/Ninja rogue with specialized combat skills like dirty fighting
- Mix in some Ranger levels for super scout with two weapon fighting
- Mix in some fighter levels for more melee power
- Mix in some cleric or wizard levels for a buffs

One of my favorite builds is the all out dual kukri wielding cuisinart rogue. In NWN I with epic levels you could build the ultimate death machine - check out this thread found on the bioware forums: [url="http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_devastatingrogue.html"]Devastating Rogue[/url]

D&D games are all about roleplaying to me. I find the rogue class to really match my playstyle. To each his own.

[Who Cares]

Oh no, he can still sneak, hide, open locks, climb walls, find & bypass traps. listen in on conversations, notice little things out of place, do acrobatics, pretend to be someone else or just try to plain lie his way in.

About the feats. We didn't start at first level, I planned ahead and took a combination of feats that would be in synergy. If I shouldn't have taken combat feats all that is left is increasing skills. But I'm guessing what you meant is that I didn't take the more traditional feats for a rogue.
I planned these with the idea that I could keep the wizard and sorcerer alive (by tripping everything in sight not using a ranged weapon) until the ranger or cleric could get around and do some serious harm to the victim(s) I just tripped. It wasn't until the guy who plays the wizard pointed out that with a greater invisibility enemies could not avoid me and get hit with a sneak attack in every AoO I'd perform that I could actually be considered a menace.

However there is still the requirement that enemies have to move through my threat zone to get the most out of this. Otherwise I have to trip them with the two normal attacks in my turn (of which generally only the first results in a hit with the free follow up attack) and then do AoOs while they are getting back up while hoping that the ranger in that time hasn't eviscerated a target

As for specialized combat equipment.Lets see :

• gloves of dexterity - a must have for every self respecting rogue
• ring of minor spell storing - multi purpose, can be (and has been) used for infiltration and storing of spells no one in the group has access to.
• purpose enchanted weapon - Guilty as charged that I build this to specs with an effect that gives a +4 on all the rolls involving a trip to increase chances that a trip would be succesful. Why not after specializing in that

Spells
Why not increase the effectivity of a strategy by doing this? What is the difference between that and putting in obstructions through magic so that enemies have to pass the ranger & cleric?

Oh and I do have a nice little adamantine dagger +1 for the traditonal role of poke the enemy wizard

[Shakes]

Chance, my rogue, outdamages Khelgar all day in every situation even without sneak attacks. It's all about how you setup their skills and gear.

For example mine is running custom Rapiers (only recently made them) in a dual wield config. I haven't specialized with them yet because I was heavily invested in short swords earlier. As for damaging certain types of creatures you really only need one or two extra weapons to insure you can hurt anything you run accross.

I've also as of level 15 shifted him into a duelist role giving him even better evasion andother options. Armor really made little difference at this point with the sick dex he's managed to build up.

He cant take a hit but he deals the bulk of the damage in a fight. I also frees me up to ditch Neeshka (even though I love havin the character around) and allows me to run another caster in the party.

Add onto that the Appraise skill which is of infinate value apparently in generating better revenue. It baffled me that anyone was having any money problems at all even in the um *cough* middle of the game. The funniest part was actually breaking half the vendors I ran across. Literally selling to them until they ran out of gold!

So yeah, definately no problem to play a rogue even in an upfront combat role.