Evaluate this Party (newbie in 3E rules)

[Crucis]

good point about the extra spells for CHA 20. The way I see DC for spells is that well you lose 1 for -2 CHA but you gain one for the extra level so they balance out. Isn't the DC formula (spell base DC + caster level + caster casting stat modifier ie WIS,INT, or CHA) vs (enemy level + wis modifier + D20 roll) ?? and the extra level would mean you have the extra spells with it

I don't really pay that close attention to the DC stuff. All I need to know is that sorcs will work out just fine as human or aasimar. Whatever floats your boat will do fine.

I think I'll change the Drow to a regular Elf for the 20 DEX. tiefling is out due to roleplaying reasons (I don't want a half demon on my team). I might make the ranger a drow I want 1 drown on my team and I'm not sure which char to make it
barbarian would be nice but he need the levels, a ranger needs charm animals and sneaky skills.

Jedi, the upside of a drow ranger (ignoring the cliche) is that rangers are, by their nature, a rather stat intentive class and a drow's extra stat points will be rather useful for a ranger.

And an elven wizzy X/rogue 2 will work out just fine as well. Probably better than a drow in this instance.

[kmonster]

The save vs. spell formula is somewhat different.

Spell DC is: 10 + spell level + casting stat modifier + other bonusses like spell focusses or save penalties mentioned in the spell description.
A spell's DC doesn't change with the caster's level, so "chromatic orb" cast by a 20 cha level 1 sorc will be harder to save against than cast by a 18 cha level 30 sorc.
But I don't think the better DC evens out the slower spell gain you get with aasimar, although a level 26 aasimar sorc is stronger than a level 27 human sorc with 2 less cha at the end of the HoF game.

In order to succeed a save the sum of your bonusses + a d20 roll must be at least as high as spell's DC.

It is noted the spell description if you have to succeed a will (ex: hold person) or reflex (fireball) or fortitude (finger of death) save.
The tables in the back of the manual provide you with information how big your bonus for each class level is. (bad class saves: +1 for each 3 levels, good class saves: +2 and +1 for each 2 levels).
The stat modifier (can be negative) is added to your bonus, together with other things like protection through magical equipment or spells.

Enemies are treated like party members when calculating their save bonusses.

[Claudius]

Drow is good for a barbarian as a barbarian has a weakness to will saves (charm etc). The drow has +2 to will saves and spell resistance

Just my two sense worth..Remember in 3E a mage and a fighter start out within 1 AB of eachother and the fighter only gains on that during odd levels. So it will be awhile before the barbarian level matters. 6th level is big for double attacks and 8th level for improved critical.

My rationale was to cover a weakness in a barbarian (you can't add paladin or monk levels).

claudius

Edit: just to clarify there is an intial diff between a mage and a fighter in typical stat distribution (big diff) and HPs feats etc

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I would try a drow Barbarian but it makes no roleplaying sense. Drow are usually wizardz clerics of Lolth or fighters. A Barbarian is a steeled warrior type who lived his whole life in the extremely harsh frozen north and gained his skills from fighting random things, as opposed to being taught in a school as Drow are. Maybe I'm being to picky

Good call on the Ranger a Drow Ranger seems perfect. They are as you noted stat intensive, but on the other hand there is no pressing reason to get them to high levels, because they don't cast much. They mesh well together.

one more thing; if DC isn't based on level, would it be a good idea to spend 8 feats on all the spell focus ones ?? Wizard types is where I'm having difficulty assigning feats. There's combat casting and discipline, then there's the spirit of whatever that increase damage and add resistance, and thirdly there are the school focus feats that add dc. I'd love all of them but I can't. which ones are best ??

[Crucis]

one more thing; if DC isn't based on level, would it be a good idea to spend 8 feats on all the spell focus ones ?? Wizard types is where I'm having difficulty assigning feats. There's combat casting and discipline, then there's the spirit of whatever that increase damage and add resistance, and thirdly there are the school focus feats that add dc. I'd love all of them but I can't. which ones are best ??

The spell focus feats can be useful. The key is to pick the ones that matter most to the style of casting that best fits the character. if you like to cast a lot of enchantment spells, SF and GSF Enchantment are a VERY good thing. This is particularly true since most Enchantment spells are "pass-fail", not full damage or half damage, which is rather common for evocation spells.

OTOH, if you're more of a "nuker", you may want to focus on the elemental Feats, with Spirit of Flame being the most commonly used, probably followed by Scion of Storms for electrical spells. BTW, both of these two feats will be good for your druid, since some of a druid's best spells are fire and lightning based.

Discipline isn't all that necessary, unless your mage has a truly pathetic CON. If you're taking some points in the Concentration skill and already have the Combat Casting feat, you should be OK.

Don't bother with Spell Penetration. It's a waste of a feat.

Another feat that's quite useful for mages is Subvocal casting. While enemy mages casting Silence spells aren't all that common, when it does occur, if you don't have this feat, you're in for a tough fight. BTW, Sub-vocal casting isnt'a bad choice for a cleric or druid either, whichever is your primary medic. it really stinks when you need your medic and he happens to be silenced.


You need to be a little more careful with your Feat choices with your sorceror than your wizard. Wizzies actually get bonus feats, but sorcs are stuck with the minimum number of feats (1 every 4th level IIRC).

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I was going to take Discipline for the added will save, but If I'm going to get only 1 feat per 4 levels it's a luxury I can't afford. The reason I like high will saves is because the one thing I hate is when I get disabled in anyway. I mean fail a reflex save you take more form a fireball, fail a will save and your essentially out of that fight.

It's hard to say which spells I really like, In BGII I'm quite fond of using emotion; a mass disabling spell but always followed up with nukes. I guess I can split duties between my 2 mages. hehe with her godly good looks 20+ CHA she might as well focus on enchanting people to death

As for subvocal casting; considering it's rare, and that my cleric and druid will have a high wisdom (in the twenties fairly soon), Isn't that a wasted feat
as they'll be making their save most of the time ??
DC from the formula would be 12 + whatever wisdom modifier the orc shaman has, which I can't imagine is high.

[kmonster]

I wouldn't take subvocal casting either.

Discipline is also a wasted feat, with enough concentration skill you don't even need combat casting to avoid being interrupted unless a critical failure is made.
And better will saves aren't that important, you can cast protection spells to get immune to mind-affecting spells.
+1 will only affect 1 of 20 saves and your mages have to do a will save maybe 4-5 times in the whole game, so don't bother.

I'd only take greater spell focusses and elemental feats for the mage and sorc. (unless you want to speed up your whole party with "dash")

[Crucis]

I tend to think that Dash is not that necessary for that many characters. OTOH, by the time you get into HOF, most of your characters probably have most or all of the feats they really wanted, and having a mage take Dash or some lesser feats is not that big a deal.


About the only characters that I have take Dash are my scout-type characters, who may be out in front of the party and I want them to be able to run back as quickly as possible. Since I tend to fight my battles in a more defensive manner, by holding a strong formation and letting the enemy come to me, rather than charging headlong into the fray, having greater footspeed to close that distance is not of great value to me, except for my scouts.


I don't think that Sub-vocal casting is a "wasted" feat, just sub-optimal. And Jedi does make a fine point that his Druid and Cleric will have excellent Will saves and will be rather resistant to will-based spells. That said, since he does have a wizard in his party and wizards do get bonus feats at levels 1, 5, 10, 15,and so on, if the wizzy chooses to take SVC, it's not that big a deal.


Kmonster, I do think that Combat Casting is a good feat to take. Maybe not absolutely optimal, but a solid choice. You seem to worry too much about making absolutely 100% optimal choices all the time. Don't worry quite so much. Also, taking only the very, very, very most optimal choices all the time will tend to end up creating the same characters over and over and over again, which sounds a bit boring to me. It's one of the reasons that my Conjurer X/Ranger ~3 was such an interesting character in a a party I played a few parties back. She was intentionally less than optimal, less than perfect. And in that less than perfect build ended up being a surprisingly interesting and challenging character to play.


Jedi, if you really care about higher Will Saves, then consider taking Iron Will, which is a +2 to Will Saves. Not an optimal feat choices for a cleric, druid, wizard, or sorceror. It tends to be more favored by warrior classes who have a weaker Will save progression. Still, if Will saves are a concern for you, Iron Will can help alleviate those concerns.

[kmonster]

I also prefer having the monsters come to my party instead of running after them and know that taking dash for the whole party isn't powergaming, but it's very nice if everyone moves faster.

[Crucis]

I also prefer having the monsters come to my party instead of running after them and know that taking dash for the whole party isn't powergaming, but it's very nice if everyone moves faster.

Absolutely 100% agree. Which is probably why, by the time I'm in HOF and I probably have most or all of the feats I really want or need, I'll take Dash for that reason. I'm not going to take Dash just cuz I want everyone to move faster at the expense of critical feats in normal mode.

[Ulfgar Prigor]

I was going to take Discipline for the added will save, but If I'm going to get only 1 feat per 4 levels it's a luxury I can't afford. The reason I like high will saves is because the one thing I hate is when I get disabled in anyway. I mean fail a reflex save you take more form a fireball, fail a will save and your essentially out of that fight.

JS

If your sorceror is of lawful good alignment, you can improve all of her saving throws in one fell swoop by taking one level of paladin, and thus obtaining the benefit of Divine Grace (charisma bonus added to all saving throws).

[Aerich]

But if you do that, the sorc is less effective as a (paid) diplomat.

[Claudius]

I would try a drow Barbarian but it makes no roleplaying sense. Drow are usually wizardz clerics of Lolth or fighters. A Barbarian is a steeled warrior type who lived his whole life in the extremely harsh frozen north and gained his skills from fighting random things, as opposed to being taught in a school as Drow are. Maybe I'm being to picky

Yeah I think so too but once had a party with 1 page stories for each. One character was a drow barbarian who had to escape his city due to politics...
He lived as a barbarian (which I interpreted as just a beserking warrior NOT a tribesman) in the wastes of the underdark and escaped to the surface after a stint as a duergar owned slave (part of the story of how the characters met eachother)..the black raven monastery was used as a waypoint and they advised he go to the surface with the others suggesting Targos. I think one of my characters starts as a monk and one as a deep gnome merchant. Forget the whole story...

He was a powerful barbarian by the way!!!

claudius

Edit: now that I recall it correctly he didn't learn his 'rage' ability in the wild of the underdark he was actually promptly captured by duergar. He learned it in an arena as a pitfighter. He was neutral evil and used halberds

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Well here's another progress update to keep the thread going

I have just managed to free Shaengarn bridge successfully, man o man does the difficulty keep increasing exponentially ?? That was one hell of a fight for a level 4 team. I can see now why many of you urged me to power-play ??

Strangly enough, contrary to what many of you said, my Ranger is one of my most powerfull chars. I've got him dual wielding a dagger and a short sword and he's routinly doing 6-10 dmg wth only 10 in STR his charm animal ability is extremely usefull and has turned the tide in many fights. He also seems to attack faster, probably due to dual wielding. (Drow 10,20,14,14,12+1,10)

I've also noticed the game has some rather nasty bugs. After leaving the Bridge area, I came back into it because I wanted to find a direct route to Targos, suddenlly the map had changed and the bridge is now gone ????
Although I was sure I managed to save it in time. I go to town talk to the mayor and I can only tell him I'm still working on the quest. I reloaded a quicksave that I made just after I finished the fight..... It turns out I needed to slaughter some poor wild cat that my ranger charmed. Apperantly he was responsible for destroying the bridge and keeping me from getting my journal entry. After killing the cat in cold blood (it wouldn't even defend itself) I was able to report full success.

Anyway off to the Goblin Fortress tommorow!!

Oh 1 more thing, what are the most usefull enemies to take as favoured enemies for a Ranger ?? I have Orcs so far I'm thinking undead will come next since it's a broad category ????

[kmonster]

Most useful favoured enemies are goblins. But if the first chapter is over when you ranger reaches level 5 you'd better take something else. Since you already have orcs I'd say take undead followed by yuan-ti.

[Claudius]

At level 5 I would consider taking trolls. There are a lot of them..Goblins would be good for the warrens but then there aren't too many after that.

claudius

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I think I'll take Trolls then Yuanti. Goblins aren't much of a challange for a wizard with fireball. heck goblins are no challange whatsoever, I cut straight through them at level 1. Undead can probably be handled by a single-class cleric which I have