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Some good points about bards. I think I have only used one once in all the parties I have run through IWD 1. Will have to try one again in my next party. Lore is definitely a good skill to have. The best lore my present party has is my 8th level elven mage with 24 (buffs to 44 with a Potion of Genius). She has to use slots for identify which I think could be much better used for offensive spells.

Bards aren't worth it without HoW.

I think you phrased it bad. Bards are even more worth it with HoW. There's more to them than songs, but the songs they get in HoW are *great*.

Well, that sounds like something to look forward to. My next group will definitely have a bard. I have both HoW and TotL add ons so I expect that he/she will be contributing greatly.

GawainBS wrote:I think you phrased it bad. Bards are even more worth it with HoW. There's more to them than songs, but the songs they get in HoW are *great*.

No.

Without HoW, you're so much better off with a T/M.

Bards do get their spells faster (allthough not as many) than a mage, and due to being higher level than a T/M bards will also have a lower THAC0. Also, they have higher HP. They can also use Longbows & Heavy Crossbows, which a T/M can't. In those categories, there are some nice weapons. After a few levels, you'll automaticly ID every item due to the bard's high Lore. Some people don't mind lugging around un-ID'd items, but some do. Together with the Thief, they're the fastest leveling class in the game.
Granted, the T/M is a fully capable thief that can also detect & disarm traps.
I never use my bards as thieves (apart from some pickpocketing), but as a support warrior & support mage. They excell in that category.

Personally, I feel that HOW adds dramatically to the value of bards.. I found that in the original game they were quite weak, and I didn't generally use them, I went for the F/M or F/T combination instead.

But, of course, this is personal opinion. I have seen similar debates about bards in the BG2 forum. Some people really love them, regardless of the particular form they take. And hey, it's all about personal play style and having fun. So I figure, people should just play in whichever way is most enjoyable to them.

I won't deny the power boost that HoW gave bards. Warsong of the Sith *is* awesome. But I find it strange that you only find the bard adequate with those songs. They can't do anything else while singing.
Like I said before, you may not compare them to a thief/x, because that isn't their niche. He probably is more, like DW said, a F/M. Between that and the bard, it's indeed personal preference.

P.S.: Am I imagining this, or could bards in IWD learn up to lvl 8 spells?

Druids.

HoW adds a lot of power to many characters, especially multiclass ones. You can actually have your fighter/mage/thief reach 30 in all three classes! Druids got a nice addition too. Before, the forms weren't too appealing.

But yeah, I think bards are great even without HoW. Strong fighters, nice spellcasters.

How large of a party could you have in order to make 30th level is each of those three classes? Would this have to be a solo character?

You'd likely have to go into HoF mode if you didn't want to solo. The max total XP I've had for a game on Insane was in the ballpark of 35-40 million. A Normal game is half of that.

Philos wrote:How large of a party could you have in order to make 30th level is each of those three classes? Would this have to be a solo character?

Depends on party composition. Example: If party = F/M/T, C/R, F/D, Bard; then all will reach lvl30 except the F/M/T.

I think the best way to get 30s in all is not to make a MC mage of any kind.