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fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:28 pm

rmemmett84 wrote:OK then. The sole source of material for the man's show was derived from poking fun at other ethnicities.

Just a few of the themes that regularly popped up in repeated skits on his show:

Robin Hood, who always invents something new that fails.
The lovers on the moors in Wuthering Heights.
Horror films, specifically werewolves and vampires
Arthur and his roundtable.
Sherlock Holmes.
A man going for a series of interviews
A man seeing his doctor

These accounted for plenty of skits over the series, and none of them involved ethnic humor.

I don't care whether they are just other British groups or people with different skin colors. Unless you can prove to me that all Irishmen are indeed drunks this would just be a stereotype.

You just wrote of "other ethnicities," but Allen was Irish. He poked fun at Irish and English stereotypes, which his audience knew, and realized were ridiculous, just as he did. Making jokes like this has never been considered a sign of bigotry in any culture I've read about.

Now while I readily admit this was all done in fun, it is bigotry none the less.

Bigotry is an atittude of intolerance towards races, religions, nationalities, etc, that are not one's own. That's completely different from poking a bit of fun at various stereotypes, which just about every comic (or, for that matter, human being) does. I've heard bigots try to be "funny," and the result was disgusting. Bigotry is a very different matter.

I am not accusing the man of being a bigot as I have said about three times now.

If you say a person is guilty of bigotry, you are calling them a bigot. This is the way the words are used. So if a person is guilty of hypocrisy, he or she is a hypocrite, etc.

Is it not bigotry because all the people he made fun of were caucasian?

Um...I'm sorry, but I can't follow the trajectory of this. You mean to say, because he didn't make fun of blacks, he was a bigot, but he wouldn't have been a bigot if he make black jokes?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:35 pm

I find it rather curious that in all the debate about Dave Allen, no one has mentioned his favourite comedy target, namely religion in general, and Roman Catholicism in particular.

rmemmett84 · Post by **rmemmett84** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:30 pm

fable wrote:Just a few of the themes that regularly popped up in repeated skits on his show:

Robin Hood, who always invents something new that fails.
The lovers on the moors in Wuthering Heights.
Horror films, specifically werewolves and vampires
Arthur and his roundtable.
Sherlock Holmes.
A man going for a series of interviews
A man seeing his doctor

These accounted for plenty of skits over the series, and none of them involved ethnic humor.

I'll give you "sole source" was indeed overstated. Obviously not his entire show but by your own admission a large portion of it was.

He poked fun at Irish and English stereotypes, which his audience knew, and realized were ridiculous, just as he did. Making jokes like this has never been considered a sign of bigotry in any culture I've read about.

As I have said repeatedly I don't believe that Allen was a bigot. Certainly the show was comedic and again as I have already said...it was all in good fun. His was poking fun at bigotry by showing how assinine its application was.

Bigotry is an atittude of intolerance towards races, religions, nationalities, etc, that are not one's own. That's completely different from poking a bit of fun at various stereotypes, which just about every comic (or, for that matter, human being) does. I've heard bigots try to be "funny," and the result was disgusting. Bigotry is a very different matter.

So what your saying is making fun of other races, ethnicities, and sexual preferences is not bigotry? Then what is it?

If you say a person is guilty of bigotry, you are calling them a bigot. This is the way the words are used. So if a person is guilty of hypocrisy, he or she is a hypocrite, etc.

Again since I apparently can't say this enough for you to follow...his HUMOR was bigoted not necessarily him.

Um...I'm sorry, but I can't follow the trajectory of this. You mean to say, because he didn't make fun of blacks, he was a bigot, but he wouldn't have been a bigot if he make black jokes?

You tell me? I'm trying to figure out why you don't think making fun of Irish, Welsh, or English is bigotry. I'm asking if you feel the only way bigotry can exist is if the skin colors are different..

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:33 pm

rmemmett84 wrote:I'll give you "sole source" was indeed overstated. Obviously not his entire show but by your own admission a large portion of it was.

No, I never "admitted" his poking fun at the Irish was a large portion of anything. It was a very small part of his show, which I watched every night for a couple of years. -Not that this matters at all, since poking fun at your own people in good humor is about as controversial and bigoted as eating breakfast.

As I have said repeatedly I don't believe that Allen was a bigot. Certainly the show was comedic and again as I have already said...it was all in good fun. His was poking fun at bigotry by showing how assinine its application was...

Again since I apparently can't say this enough for you to follow...his HUMOR was bigoted not necessarily him.

The problem seems to lie in your regarding every joke aimed at every stereotype as bigoted humor. This completely ignores the very important matter of intent--which is the origin of bigotry. I think you may want to consider this matter of intent, carefully. Martin Luther King told black jokes, but this wasn't bigoted humor, and he wasn't a bigot. A person who tells a joke about the Irish is no more bigoted against them than a person who tells viola jokes, or jokes about carpenters.

Again, olease, whatever you do outside this board, pelase don't accuse anybody of bigotry here unless you can offer evidence of this.

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:38 pm

*watches with interest and popcorn as thread veers wildly off-topic*

Incidentally, the only time I've been told off by a librarian was when I was reading The Meaning of Liff and laughing too loudly.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:46 pm

Robnark wrote:*watches with interest and popcorn as thread veers wildly off-topic*

It's never been considered off-topic to require a member to explain an accusation of bigotry. That's pretty much been standard here in SYM as far back as I can remember.

Incidentally, the only time I've been told off by a librarian was when I was reading The Meaning of Liff and laughing too loudly.

I had the same happen to me, once, but it was a collection of humorous essays by Robert Benchley. Of course, there was no Douglas Adams in those days, but I think he learned a lot from Robert Sheckley, a very fine fantasy/science fiction writer in the 1960s and 1970s. Mindswap does recall some of the things Adams would do, later, at least in the overall satirical tone and the sense that the universe is mad.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:54 am

Well, I will definitely miss Adams and his sense of humor. I read the 5 (?) books in the Hitchhiker's "trilogy" :laugh: and it kept me in stitches constantly. I can't think of any other books that have done that (to me). I haven't read the others on the list but I am thinking I should.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:54 pm

For those who are interested, Adams was also involved a few years back in writing an adventure game called Starship Titanic. It has a site, here. I reviewed it when it first came out, and was pretty impressed, despite his trademark ability to wear you down with frustration. He also takes one of the parts, as a transportation device for food and such, and has a video cameo at the end, where he speaks of leaving the ship to you, while he simply stops off at the next planet and catches up on his fishing.