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Scientology documents leaked online (spam on topic only)

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LeoStarDragon1
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Post by LeoStarDragon1 »

Howdy, Fable!

Maybe it was a Gilbert and Sullivan chorus. The lyrics can be tricky. :)

Like the one Data was singing maybe. :p

That's not the way it works, though. What happens is that you have an established religion, in which numerous people come up with, and agree upon, a variant in interpretation simultaneously, through discussion. They in turn discuss this with others, who either agree or disagree, and they hive off. We don't need to look for first causes, here: it would be useless. But typically religions begat religions, not individuals. That's even true about religion groups centered around solar deities, such as the Orphics, the Dionysiacs, and the Christos worshippers. All began within and moved slightly out of other, larger groups. Over time, given the separations, more and more changes occurred. But it's a cult when a single person announces, commands, compels others.

Well, I was thinking of both, the first timer, and the current "lazy ones" that deviate from some one else's work, hehhehe. In "SPACE", the character James Michener (spelling?) created, reminded me of Jim Baker, maybe. Anyway, he was a con-man who wanted to get rich quick. He finds the right place, meaning with legal loop holes for him to take advantage of, and establishes his own university, wherupon as the Dean of such, he awards himself a diploma or degree as needed, for each scheme he devises. Eventually he hears Billy Graham, or someone like him, and is inspired to take money that way. So he makes himself a theologist and begins preaching to get money donated to him. Eventually he has so much money, he quits that racket, while the church he created lives on without him. He has a wife and others at first to help him, etc. That's the gist of it, if not an accurate quoting. I was more interested in the space program elements and considered the rest the boring parts to get through. The made-for-television mini-series condensed so much of the novel, that the guy seemed like less of a conman, than he is portrayed in the novel, which is as thick as Hubbard's.

But anyway, I understood your points! When I was very young/little, we used to go to church, but both Grandpa and Dad hated the donation of money part, so that was one incentive as to why we quit going as semi-regulars. We still go for funerals and rare weddings though.

Please send him congratulations.[/QUOTE]

I will! But he just went to sleep, so it'll have to wait. :)
Shhh! Be very quiet! I may be sleep writing and sleep reading! :laugh:
Who said, "It is not whether you get knocked up, but whether you can get down!"? ;)
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fable
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Post by fable »

LeoStarDragon1 wrote:Maybe it was a Gilbert and Sullivan chorus. The lyrics can be tricky. :)

Like the one Data was singing maybe. :p
I didn't realize that paper-thin character in a braindead series sang a chorus from Gilbert and Sullivan! Why, who would have guessed! Which number was it?
In "SPACE", the character James Michener (spelling?) created, reminded me of Jim Baker, maybe. Anyway, he was a con-man who wanted to get rich quick. He finds the right place, meaning with legal loop holes for him to take advantage of, and establishes his own university, wherupon as the Dean of such, he awards himself a diploma or degree as needed, for each scheme he devises. Eventually he hears Billy Graham, or someone like him, and is inspired to take money that way. So he makes himself a theologist and begins preaching to get money donated to him. Eventually he has so much money, he quits that racket, while the church he created lives on without him. He has a wife and others at first to help him, etc. That's the gist of it, if not an accurate quoting. I was more interested in the space program elements and considered the rest the boring parts to get through. The made-for-television mini-series condensed so much of the novel, that the guy seemed like less of a conman, than he is portrayed in the novel, which is as thick as Hubbard's.
I don't think turning to a Hollywood fiction film for an accurate representation of socio-theological development is probably wise. Typically, scholars and researchers tend to get into the field and write books of their studies, whereas screenwriters tend to get into their heads, and write whatever will bring big bucks to the front office. Which isn't to say that movies and tv shows are intrinsically bad. They can make great entertainment. But entertainment shouldn't be confused with facts.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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LeoStarDragon1
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Post by LeoStarDragon1 »

Howdy, Fable!

I didn't realize that paper-thin character in a braindead series sang a chorus from Gilbert and Sullivan! Why, who would have guessed! Which number was it?

I'm supposed to answer that insulting queston because.....?

I don't think turning to a Hollywood fiction film for an accurate representation of socio-theological development is probably wise. Typically, scholars and researchers tend to get into the field and write books of their studies, whereas screenwriters tend to get into their heads, and write whatever will bring big bucks to the front office. Which isn't to say that movies and tv shows are intrinsically bad. They can make great entertainment. But entertainment shouldn't be confused with facts.

DUH! The mini-series was based on the novel. I read the novel and saw the mini-series.

Both could inspire real people to use the same scam and probably have.

Okay, I looked it up just now. The name of the fictional scam artist is, "Leopold Strabismus". Wow! Time flies! The book came out in 1982, the year I graduated high school, while the mini-series came out and aired during, April 14-18, 1985, my last college year I think. Old memories to recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_(novel)


Anyway, I understood your points, I just wish you'd understood mine much better.
Shhh! Be very quiet! I may be sleep writing and sleep reading! :laugh:
Who said, "It is not whether you get knocked up, but whether you can get down!"? ;)
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fable
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Post by fable »

LeoStarDragon1 wrote:I didn't realize that paper-thin character in a braindead series sang a chorus from Gilbert and Sullivan! Why, who would have guessed! Which number was it?

I'm supposed to answer that insulting queston because.....?
I can't imagine anybody finding my remark insulting--dryly meant, perhaps, but not insulting--unless they actually were involved in writing it. ;) (Which isn't to say I was joking. I wasn't. It's a terribly written series, in my opinion.) Same case with my previous reference to G&S. Tongue firmly planted in cheek. Tell me you don't do that up here, yourself, from time to time, including to me, without emoticons.
DUH! The mini-series was based on the novel. I read the novel and saw the mini-series.

Both could inspire real people to use the same scam and probably have.
Yes, but that results in a cult, not a religion. There's next to no similarity between the two. A cult may take the outer form of a religion, or of a political movement, or a stage director's reputation, or even of a school of economics. But the thing is that a cult isn't any of these things. It's something else, entirely.
Anyway, I understood your points, I just wish you'd understood mine much better.
I don't mean to be unkind, so what part didn't I understand that you wrote?

And please, let me know your reaction to some of the details of Scientology. It's arguably a cult.
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Claudius
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Post by Claudius »

I think its important to understand that different people use language differently. Now at X University Professor Y might define a cult a certain way, and across the globe a professor who doesn't speak english where there is a different culture (and word cult) might have a different sense.

And thats just the people who are educated. Of course jim bob thinks a different thing of cult then Ian.

I agree with fable that scientology shows symptoms of cult in my definition including persecuting people who leave their society. I don't know how you could have genuine honest inquiry as a scientologist if there are such consequences for disagreeing with the party line. I am also guessing that fables link defines what is meant to that thinker by cult.

One thing I've observed of Christians online is that they cannot agree amongst themselves often who is a true Christian. So I think it is a bit fuzzy what a religion is. No doubt there were not religions when species could not communicate effectively. Do cat's have religions? At some point with people communicating there developed religions. But you cannot find precicely the exact instant I suspect when it became a religion. Nonetheless there appear to be religions. Just as a seed appears to become a plant but its hard to find the exact instant. Or wood to fire to ash. Finding the exact instants is kind of a little puzzle, like finding the boundary to awareness.

The shaker religion started entire autonomous asexual communities based on the original teachings of one woman. Who interpreted Christianity a certain way and believed that she was the second coming...(kind of just inserted because I thought the shaker society quite amazing).
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fable
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Post by fable »

Claudius wrote:The shaker religion started entire autonomous asexual communities based on the original teachings of one woman. Who interpreted Christianity a certain way and believed that she was the second coming...(kind of just inserted because I thought the shaker society quite amazing).
Yes, they did start that way, but it's worth pointing out that they came out of a recognized religion--the Quakers. (The original name they were given was Shaking Quakers.) So the Shakers began as a split from another religion, based on the teachings of a single individual, and evolved over time into a separate religion.

This is different from, say, Scientology, or Randism, that started with a single person who made it all up as they went along. Though the smarter cult figures usually try to blur the cultish aspects of what they have to offer. :) I don't think Hubbard really cared.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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