An Afghani-American's Viewpoint

CM · Post by CM » Sat Sep 22, 2001 8:24 pm

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
Actually, I am now sure that Pakistan has pledged its support to the US. I saw it on the news about an hour ago. There have been many riots (as would be expected), but Pakistan said they would support the US. Whether this means letting the US use Pakistan as a base of operations or just letting the US fly over I don't know, but I am sure that there will be some measure of support.

Support depends on your definition.
Pakistan has stated it is "with the US" and "we will cooperate".
And no offence intended by the US media doesn't get everything right most of the time.

The Pakistan has officially declared in a press statement which was covered by BBC that Pakistan will not allow its troops for any attack in to Afghanistan and we will provide intelligence and airspace. The Pakistani govt has not even considered the point of bases in pakistan.

The US will get its butt whipped if it goes in with ground forces.
The Taliban have fought a guerrilla war for over 20 years with CIA and US military training.
They know the terrain the US does not.
The Taliban can attack and scatter in a matter of minutes.
An example is when a troop of 50 russian commandos were cut to pieces in a matter of 2 minutes with Ak-47's and pistols.

I am afraid that this attack on Afghanistan will see more than 5000 dead bodies in the first months if the US does send in ground troops.

CM · Post by CM » Sat Sep 22, 2001 8:27 pm

Nippy, the Russian intelligence of the FSB or KGB which ever you like is pathetic.
They can't locate the fighters in chechnya but they can detect movements and logistics in Afghanistan.

Second the tunnels would have been changed by the various factions during the civil war.
Plus the tunnel system designs won't help as they are very old and there are many more places to hide in the HinduKush Mountains.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sat Sep 22, 2001 9:15 pm

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
I do denounce religion and god. for thousands of years humans have warred agains each other because of difference of relgion or color of skin and appearence.

It pains me, Thorin, that you have said such things

, but that is your opinion and it's your prerogative to believe, or not to believe in any given topic. Your personal experiences definitely has something to do with your present convictions.

Allow me though, to give me my 2 cents worth about what you have stated:

There was once a thread that discussed about religion (What's your religion?) and I think that I was even the last one who posted. You can check it out and see my gist...

Mind you, I'm not here to preach my Faith and try to convince the non-believers to change their minds.

Religion for me, was always defined as YOUR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with GOD. It's not about glorifying one's religion or god at the expense of others. Not unless you are a devil worshipper, I have yet to see a religion whose teachings preach death, destruction and EVIL.

A lot of people identify the behavior of its followers as a reflection of their religion.

That is totally unfair.

Problem is, the evil things that these men do (with the premise that they were done for their religion's glory) are always retained and remembered and as such causing disillusionment among others to believe in God and religion.

If anything, I believe that all these evil stuff that were done in the name of their god and religion are more of a corrupted or twisted interpretation of their religious tenets for the sole purpose of furthering personal glory and power of these holier-than-thous

It is the men behind the robes and not the Entity(ies) they represent.

History is rich in examples. In my country, the Spanish friars have ruled our society for almost 300 years supposedly in the name of God... but their oppresive and selfish actions do not speak of men who are supposed to be God's representatives.

Yet that did not stop from having the Philippines as the biggest Catholic country in Asia.

I could give more examples from other religions as well, but then I assume that you get the gist of my argument.

If religion is indeed bad, then might as well say that all God-fearing people on this planet are evil... which of course I believe not.

Peace, brother.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 5:35 am

Originally posted by Fas:
The US will get its butt whipped if it goes in with ground forces.
The Taliban have fought a guerrilla war for over 20 years with CIA and US military training.
They know the terrain the US does not.
The Taliban can attack and scatter in a matter of minutes.
An example is when a troop of 50 russian commandos were cut to pieces in a matter of 2 minutes with Ak-47's and pistols.

I am afraid that this attack on Afghanistan will see more than 5000 dead bodies in the first months if the US does send in ground troops.

Strongly disagree. The US wouldn't dream of putting troops into Afghanistan without the knowledge of what happened to the Russians in the 80's. We are talking about the professional US military here, not a Russian conscript force. The US trained and armed them? Maybe, I would say that would put the US in a brilliant position to defeat these "people" - Know Thy Enemy. Although that the majority of equipment you see on TV held by the so-called Taliban is Russian. The US knows more about how terrain affects combat than all the Afghans in Afghanistan.

5000 dead? Yes but no more Americans.

I am not afraid.

Your post smacks of admiration for the dogs who have supported this terror attack on civilians. I take offence.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 7:23 am

Originally posted by Fas:

...The US will get its butt whipped if it goes in with ground forces...

Wanna bet?

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 7:24 am

Oops....I still wanna bet Fas.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Happy Evil ]

leedogg · Post by **leedogg** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:13 pm

You know this is why I haven't been posting. If the Afghanians want to get out from under the Taliban- then they would be glad for SOMEONE to come in and take care of business. I would rather die then live that way and now they have a chance at true freedom. I, for one,have always hated the we blow your ass to hell, then WE will rebuild you" way the US does things, but maybe this will help these folks out.

As far as the US rushing into war. HUH??! Acting out of rage. WHAT??!. As far as i can tell, the USA has kept a very cool head bout all this. Unless we have been bombing the hell out of somebody for the past 2 weeks. It's a good thing I don't have any control. There would be some one coming to justice. T or Sleep- I understand if you censor this, but I have nothing any worse than the others.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]

CM · Post by CM » Mon Sep 24, 2001 10:51 pm

Just to prove my point Gruntboy and Happy Evil.
The Taliban have shot down a US spy plane, and attacked an SAS group which was near Kabul.
4 got out but the Brits aren't saying how many went in.
So most people are thinking more than 4 people went in.
And according to Indian sources there is speculation that a US copter was also shot down.

Support the terrorists no.
Innocents died that i will not accept under any circumstances.
If you are offended by my comment that the US will lose in Afghanistan, i can't do anything about it.
As that is my opinion and the opinion of Russian and British generals on BBC and 2 on CNN.

I will not bet as i doubt we would be able to exchange money.
However i will bet in theory.
If the US does send in ground forces there will be heavy losses.
They will not win against the Afghanis.

Leedogg did you know that the laws the Taliban have implemented have been part of Afghani society and life as tradition for the past 3 centuries?
The laws are customs by which they live.
I don't support them as they exhibit a brand of islam which is not islam.
however they have done good and bad.
Which isn't really covered by CNN.
Did you know that security in the country is 100%.
During Russian rule the afghani women were sold as slaves and prostitutes.
Now they don't have to worry about walking alone at 5 in the morning.
Did you know that the Taliban complied with the UN agreement regarding drugs and cut drug production within the country by 95%.
These are UN Drug program figures.
I am late for class but i will find the various links on the issue and post them.
They haven't be all nice and good avout everything but they certainly aren't hated in the country.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 6:29 am

All I said was "wanna bet?". I never said I was offended.

Even if the US lives to regret entering Afhganistan, the US must be proactive to protect itself. The events that are to come will not be pretty for either side.

I suggest you point your finger at the ones who instigated this mess with their attack against the US people. The path was chosen for the US government by these people.

Speculate all you want about the results.
Time will tell.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Sep 25, 2001 11:05 am

Happy evil, i was refering to Gruntboy who said he was offended.

I did not say the US should not defend itself.
But i don't think defending yourself means attacking a nation which is not directly responsible for the attack.
If Osama is guilty by all means kill him.
But provide the world with the solid proof.
Something the taliban have been asking for but the US has not complied.
What are they hiding?

Leonidas · Post by **Leonidas** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:20 pm

The US doesn't have to pull a full scale attack on Afghanistan. There are local Afghanis more than willing, and already fighting the Taliban. The US isn't trying to occupy Afghanistan, if the US were trying to occupy Afghanistan, then they might, might have problems.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 3:11 am

Originally posted by Fas:
But i don't think defending yourself means attacking a nation which is not directly responsible for the attack.
If Osama is guilty by all means kill him.
But provide the world with the solid proof.
Something the taliban have been asking for but the US has not complied.
What are they hiding?

The US *will* defend itself.
Afghanistan *is* responsible by association.
Mr Laden *is* guilty, there is proof.
What are the Taliban hiding?

To suggest that the US military has not learned the lessons of fighting in Afghanistan is to seriously underestimate the US. Just like the mass murdering terrorists have done.

A six year old with an AK-47 could shoot down a spy drone (there were probably several six year olds in the thousands who tried). Big deal, they stopped the cameras from stealing their souls.

America has lots of helicopters.

The SAS have been fighting in country like this for 50 years. The fact the SAS are already in Afghanistan should make the Taliban think again. If they have attacked an SAS patrol, it probably took a regiment of Afghans to do more than annoy them. Odds of 100-1? I like those odds.

Nobody seems to register this 1 simple fact.

In one morning, the US has lost 1/6 in civilians deaths the number of combat deaths in Vietnam.

That is a crime against humanity. The terrorists and their supporters are no longer part of humanity. Hell is waiting for them.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 5:19 am

I know virtually nothing about military strategies, so I will not comment on this. But I have some questions regarding the Talebans and their support among the people in the country of Afghanistan:

@Fas: You say the laws the Talebans have implemented in Afghanistan, have been customs for 30 years. This is not what I hear neither from the news nor from the Afghans I've been in contact with. Where did you get this information from? And what laws are you referring to?

Apart from the standard sources of information (news, UN reports, Human rights watch reports, Amnesty) I also know people who hide refugees from Afghanistan, and I have friends who have friends from Afghanistan. So far, I have not heard of one single Afghan who supports the Talebans, on the contrary, the Afghans say it's a small minority of the population who are supporting them.

When the Talebans took the power, they were initially popular because people hoped their firm hand would bring some order to a country torn by the Soviet occupation and civil war. But people quickly got disappointed.

According to the Afghans I've been in contact with, Afghanistan previously had a middle class of educated, working women. Under the Taleban regime, women are no longer allowed to work or go to school.
The Talebans have prohibited TV, music and movies. That wasn't prohibited before.
They control all media - the only radio station, and all the newspapers. Before, all media was not controlled by one sole instance.
They also destroyed statues of other gods - the World Heritage Buddah statues are the most well known example. Destoying art work depicting other gods were not custumary to do before.
As late as May this year, Hindu Afghans were forced to start wearing a special badge. The didn't have to do this before.
The Talebans wanted to reduce crimes, and thus, they set up public torture and executions. Previously, it was not customary to tilt walls on people suspected of being homosexual.

One might argue that the people I have been in contact with, are refugees, and thus a biased sample. If they liked the Talebans, they wouldn't have fled the country. But what I hear from them, is that they think the Talebans have destroyed the country even more, that they don't care about the people, and that most Afghans share this view. Afghanistans are the worlds largest group of refugees, also before Sep 11. Why are people fleeing en masse if a majority of them likes the Taleban regime? 2 million people have fled to Iran only. According to the UN, another 2 million are in refugee camps around the world.

I understand you don't support the Taleban's and their views. I also agree with you that western media perhaps fail to mention some positive effects the Taleban regime has had, such as reducing the production of opium. But so far, I have found no discrepancy between what people from Afghanistan is reporting, and what western media, UN, Amnesty and HRW are reporting about the Talebans.

I don't believe for a minute that the people of Afghanistan are supporting the Talebans. Should I be wrong, please post references.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:31 am

Gruntboy you have your opinion, and i have mine, i doubt we are going to change our views.
If you want discuss military logistics then i know for sure you can't overwhelm the Afghani fighters.
The US out number the Afghanis 100 to 1.
It was 5 times that amount when the Russians were there.

Elegans
Damn that is a long post.
So much to cover.

Ok first it is 3 centuries and not 30 years.
The Afghanis are a tribal society with a very strict intepretation of Islam.
I know this by having 2 afghani friends here in Swiss and many back in Pakistan.
The girl was born in Afghanistan but lived all her life in Geneva.
She does not support the Taliban, but she on the other hand condemns the attempt by the US to attack Afghanistan.

Now the issue of the laws.
The middle class you refer to only lasted 20 years.
During the modern period under the Shah in the 60's and then during the 2 comminist govts in the late 70's.

Yes there was a lot of development during those 20 years.
However i would like you to ask your afghani friends how many actually lived by these modern means.
My guess would be 20% maximum.
As a majority of the people are tribal and nomadic.
They don't stay in one area.
Well now they do, as there is no where to move to.

Now i have no links or proof on the net as i know this from growing up in Pakistan and knowing the afghani people and culture from those who i have met in pakistan.
So my source of information can not be proved.

Also incorrect about women working.
Women are allowed to work in the education and health facilities.
This is part of custom in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.
In pakistan women make up 95% of the teacher workforce in all levels of education.
There are more women doctors in Pakistan then men.
Many don't practice, heck there are 3 female doctors in my family.
Only one practices the rest have kids and rather take care of them.
It is a cultural thing.

As for getting an education, you are right to my knowledge women can't get an education.

Media under the Soviets it was.
Under the Shah i don't think there was TV or radion in Afghanistan in the 60s that is.

Also being gay is a sin in Islam, and they choose a punishment they feel is ok.
I will not comment further on that as i will insult homosexual posters if i do.

Hindu's wearing badges is wrong.
And even worse as the Western media automatically thinks of Nazism.
So it is a political blunder of major proportion.

I hope i have answered all your question.
IF i have not just point out what i missed.

Ah yes the fact that so many people have fled is because:

A. Economic needs as in there are no jobs there for people.
B. Using western feelings to move to the west to earn a better life.
C. 3 years of drought
D. World sanctions.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 10:08 am

Originally posted by leedogg:
You know this is why I haven't been posting. If the Afghanians want to get out from under the Taliban- then they would be glad for SOMEONE to come in and take care of business. I would rather die then live that way and now they have a chance at true freedom. I, for one,have always hated the we blow your ass to hell, then WE will rebuild you" way the US does things, but maybe this will help these folks out.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]

Absolutely. I think it is an important point that NO SANE PERSON WOULD EVER WISH TO LIVE IN AFGHANISTAN UNDER TALIBAN RULE. That regime is just, plain, evil. An invasion by US forces would be a God-send for those people.