Attack on Afghanistan

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:15 pm

oh my goodness! my apologies: now I've TRIPLE posted!

[ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: Lazarus ]

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:16 pm

@Ivan: Nice post! Would you like a further response, or do you think we understand one another - and will simply have to agree to disagree?

Let me know. I won't have a chance to respond until next weekend (again), but If you want to talk more, I'll be glad to do so.

EDIT for spelling error - excuse MY English!

[ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: Lazarus ]

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:17 pm

arg. my first double post

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 6:59 pm

Originally posted by Lazarus:
@Ivan: Nice post! Would you like a further response, or do you think we understand one another - and will simply have to agree to disagree?

Thanks. I think, now, we have more things to repeat than new things to say. If you want to show me another point or opinion go on(even next weekend

). At now I have posted all I wish you to listen. I see you in other topic

.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 7:10 pm

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
Thanks. I think, now, we have more things to repeat than new things to say. If you want to show me another point or opinion go on(even next weekend ). At now I have posted all I wish you to listen. I see you in other topic .

I agree. I enjoyed our debate, and I hope it was - if not enlightening, at least entertaining.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 7:16 pm

Originally posted by Lazarus:
Fable; I sincerely apologize if what I have said offends you, and I did (earlier) ask if I should in fact continue this thread. As it stands, I don't know that it is worth further argument. I would suggest you lock the thread.

Gods, but why would I close the thread? You haven't broken any rules. If I couldn't separate my opinions as a moderator from my opinions as a poster, I'd be one hell of a sorry moderator.

Taking off my moderator's cap, I'm not really seeking (nor interested in) apologies. I prefer that deadliest of enemies to conversational antagonism, comprehension.

Can you understand why I took offense, after my activities, at having a phrase of mine used to condemn me--"the biggest whitewash job" you called it? My actions don't count, in other words: the use of a phrase in casual talk, does. We can extrapolate from your reactions that a lifetime's efforts--anybody's--are worth less than a sentence they might use which doesn't in your mind condemn a particular individual or group you regard as The Ultimate Evil.

I suppose I should have been amused, rather than upset; after all, to jump as you had, doesn't make much of a case in and of itself for your critical apprehension. Put another way: if someone were to ask me repeatedly for details concerning anything in my life, and then refuse to offer any judgement, I would be inclined to respect them a bit more than I had, earlier. But when a person instantly offers a snap judgement of my entire life's actions because I refuse to automatically condemn what they condemn, I should just shrug, and ignore it.

Let's go a bit deeper into this, if you don't mind. I'd like to get an answer to something I asked, above. I'd like to see if the kind of passion you bring to judge the beliefs of others, translates into the active goals allowed to rule your own life. Specifically, to repeat from before:

...have you ever picketed the UN because of Tibet? Have you ever organized a protest march because of Tianamen, or the Falun Gong? Do you make a point of buying in stores that support the cause of Tibet?

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 3:02 am

Lazarus is picking up on spamming fast

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 6:22 am

I refrained heroically from being dragged into this but..no rest for the wicked-here goes:
@Hecate & @Lazarus:To judge individuals /cultures,you must be able to analyse data from ancient to modern times,taking into consideration racial memory,collective moral issues,survival levels,geopolitics,and a multitude of other points that are represented in very complex mathematical models.Have any of you read Plato's "The Republic"?An excellent description of an ant colony!Even in our civilized world of today,44% can decide,through their representatives for the other 42%.As for The Rights of Life,Freedom and the Pursuit Of Happinness,well,remember Thomas Jefferson and his saying about the Tree of Liberty,John Paul Jones and BonneHomme Richard,Leonidas at Thermopylae and a score of others.Violence,naked force has resolved more issues in history,than any other means whether that was for "Good or"Evil",that depending on the eye of the beholder.Suppression of any kind reaches a critical point where the existing environ is changed dramatically and that is historically proven.However,I cannot truthfully say whether I would like to live there or not in this life or any other.Bear in mind that I have visited both places not as a weekend tourist.
Pfiu that was a damn oration and a serious one at that,I must be getting down with the twiching awefuls or something.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 10:41 am

@fable; I will respond as soon as I can, but it may not be until the weekend.

@NCT; why on earth were you refraining from comment? That's what the board is for!

I will respond when I get the chance.

@Thorin; Nor am I saying the Israelis are bad (or good) - I am avoiding that subject entirely. But I disagree that simply saying they are evil has any bearing on the REALITY of their actions. Take a look through my post to you again; I thought I was clear, but maybe not. Ask me if you don't understand what I am trying to get at.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 1:08 pm

Originally posted by NCT:
Pfiu that was a damn oration and a serious one at that,I must be getting down with the twiching awefuls or something.

I will have Ubik run over and check you out.

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:12 am

Originally posted by Weasel:
I will have Ubik run over and check you out.

Aye,That would cure all the rest,not the twiching!!

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:18 am

@Lazarus:You sure is this what the board is for?This looks more like SPAMMERS UNLIMITED.
Besides this is a rather delicate sub and tempers might run high from misunderstandings,etc.However,I am waiting for your reply.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:41 am

Originally posted by NCT:
@Lazarus:You sure is this what the board is for?This looks more like SPAMMERS UNLIMITED.
Besides this is a rather delicate sub and tempers might run high from misunderstandings,etc.However,I am waiting for your reply.

@NCT, SYM is a kind of interplanetary spam zone which Buck, as archon of our portion of the galaxy, established several millenia ago. By generating spam, we actually feed an important element into existence powering quasars. Amazing, isn't it?

As to tempers flaring, again, there haven't been any flames, here. Differences of opinion, yes. If people can't handle it and keep in control, they are welcome to post in another topic.

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 4:45 am

Originally posted by fable:
@NCT, SYM is a kind of interplanetary spam zone which Buck, as archon of our portion of the galaxy, established several millenia ago. By generating spam, we actually feed an important element into existence powering quasars. Amazing, isn't it?

As to tempers flaring, again, there haven't been any flames, here. Differences of opinion, yes. If people can't handle it and keep in control, they are welcome to post in another topic.

I am trying out my mesons for the moment,not to mentions the Weasy pulsars!Agreed on the second part,though the expanse of our little part of the Galaxy does raise a few interesting questions.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 4:58 am

Originally posted by fable:
Amazing, isn't it?

Amazing wasn't exactly the word that came to mind

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:03 am

Originally posted by NCT:

Aye,That would cure all the rest,not the twiching!!

Worst than I thought....might have to get Omar involved as well.

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:44 am

Originally posted by Weasel:
Worst than I thought....might have to get Omar involved as well.

Another MIA.BTW,we are talking about a cure,not a Termination,if that can be acomplished.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 12:30 pm

Originally posted by NCT:
I am trying out my mesons for the moment,not to mentions the Weasy pulsars!Agreed on the second part,though the expanse of our little part of the Galaxy does raise a few interesting questions.

Yes, those Weasley pulsars will get you everytime. We've tried speaking to him about 'em, but he goes Pod Person on us.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 4:13 pm

@fable; I am going back and pulling up your original response to me, since you pose some questions for me; I shall proceed from there into the newer post.

Originally posted by fable:
@Lazarus, the problem with piecemealing every point in a post is that 1) replies expand at an alarming rate, and lose their focus; and 2) it is all-too-easy to miss context, and begin to magnify individual phrases and sentences while losing sight of the arguments being presented.

I sincerely hope you are not requesting that I stop using quotes from you, or refrain from breaking those quotes up into more manageable sections - ? After all, you (and everyone on the board) does this all the time. I feel that it is an excellent practice, and have no problem with anyone breaking out my words in any way that they see fit. If they misunderstand or misconstrue my words, I am perfectly willing and able to correct them. I feel that the points at which I break up your thoughts are appropriate, but if you feel that I have wronged you, feel free to correct me.

I think you've done both, but it's going to take me more time than I have available literally at the moment to reconstruct what I said, how you responded and how I'll respond in kind, from what you've written. For now, let me just deal with this, as an example of what I mean:

<snip, quote from my (Lazarus&#8217 post>

You are very wrong. I have never believed in pigeonholing anybody, nor can I understand how people can be seen in terms of any single line. My views are my own, not a party's or a particular group's. I happen to be a strong advocate of capital punishment. I am also a strong advocate of local laws and fiscal conservativism (which, by the way, means *not* spending more money than you've got on anything, including blitheringly idiotic space shield research and defenses). I also have strong opinions in favor of views that are sometimes regarded as liberal, and others that are regarded as radical and reactionary. They're my views, and I gained them after thinking through what I've read and heard, rather than simply moving in lockstep to a particular ideology.

Now, this was in response to my proposition that you were politically “left.” Again, I apologize if I have misconstrued your political thought. I would point out that I put directly after that assertion “please correct me if I am wrong.” I do not believe, however, that I “pigeonholed” you, nor that my assertion was without basis. Your comments throughout this entire board have been critical of the Reagan and (both of) the Bush administrations. On the other hand, you have praised Carter’s “heart,” and stated that Clinton, while having suspect moral priorities, nevertheless was a great “success.” (Again, correct me if I have mis-represented your thoughts on these subjects.) I might add that, from what you have read here, you may wish to describe me as politically “right.” You would be wrong to do so, but I would never take offense to such a label. I would simply explain why I felt you were wrong, and use the opportunity to further explain my beliefs.

<snip, quote from my (Lazarus&#8217 post>

It's amazing. I've told you about rallies, about protests, about working towards certain goals--but to you, none of this means anything, unless I simply use the phrase "condemn China." Words, to you, literally speak louder than actions. With all your rhetoric, have you ever picketed the UN because of Tibet? Have you ever organized a protest march because of Tianamen, or the Falun Gong? Do you make a point of buying in stores that support the cause of Tibet? If not, then I have to question what business you have discussing the subject, let alone uttering snap judgements upon my life.

You ask these same questions in your next post, so I am going to leave my response until then. I would, however, question your assertion that unless I have done these things (picketing, protesting, and selective purchasing) I cannot participate in debate on the subject. This is an exceedingly odd proposition! It seems unlikely that our Congressmen and Congresswomen have ever been involved in steel manufacture, and yet they decide the fate of that industry; it is highly unlikely that the President of the U.S. has been personally involved in every subject upon which he must make decisions. No, the point of debate is INLCUSION of as many viewpoints as possible, not exclusion based on arbitrary criteria. If you and I debate, it is only the truth or falsehood of our ideas which matter – not what we do in our spare time.

And yes, I *have* done these things mentioned above, but because I won't say "Bad, evil China!" I somehow don't rate in your book.

I am simply questioning WHY you do not say “bad, evil China” when you hold the ideas that you do. You recognize the evil in their actions with regards to Tibet and Tienamen, etc, and yet you withhold judgement – wait, actually, maybe you DON’T see the evil; I guess you only see “mistakes.” THIS is the point of our discussion. I have no comprehension of how one can observe the acts of a nation like China (or the acts of the Taliban, or the nazis, or Stalin) and not be morally outraged. The entire CONCEPT of the Chinese nation is that the individual is of no inherent value, but that only the group (nation, or people) have value. This is not some minor military dictatorship (as now exists in Pakistan), this is a state that quite simply refuses to accept the sanctity of a human life. This is not about better health care for the peasants, or the elimination of corruption (both of which points you raise as positive outcomes of the current regime), this is about the horror of a state of absolute power, which has no regard for the rights of is citizens.

I'm going to deal with a few of your other points, but not now. Frankly, I'm too angered at your way of trying to pigeonhole me, flame me ("whitewash job") and misrepresent what I've done and believe because I can't see people in black and white. I'd rather not use words when I'm in this mood.

Again, I apologize for any perceived insults. I in no way intended to anger you.

Now, we move on to your next post. I (again!

) apologize if you take offense at me putting two posts in one response. I think that it is quite useful, but if you feel that I am somehow twisting your intent, or mixing up your thoughts, let me know. I suppose I could always quote the entirety of your posts and leave them intact, but I feel that it is MORE clear to break them up.

Originally posted by fable:
Gods, but why would I close the thread? You haven't broken any rules. If I couldn't separate my opinions as a moderator from my opinions as a poster, I'd be one hell of a sorry moderator.

But I HAVE broken the rules, as you state in your previous post (above). You state very directly that I have “flamed” you by using the term “whitewash.” I did not intend to, of course, and would in fact argue that the term “whitewash” hardly qualifies as a flame, but my perception is not what matters: yours is. You are within your rights as a forum member to request that this thread be closed, or that I be warned, or that I be banned. What is more, it is within your POWER as moderator to close this thread or warn me. Furthermore, I don’t know that you CAN separate your opinions as a moderator from your opinions as a poster; not that I believe that to be a BAD thing. I simply think you are one person – not two – and you cannot compartmentalize yourself in any way shape or form. (Perhaps that, however, is worth a debate with C Elegens.)

Taking off my moderator's cap, I'm not really seeking (nor interested in) apologies. I prefer that deadliest of enemies to conversational antagonism, comprehension. Can you understand why I took offense, after my activities, at having a phrase of mine used to condemn me--"the biggest whitewash job" you called it? My actions don't count, in other words: the use of a phrase in casual talk, does. We can extrapolate from your reactions that a lifetime's efforts--anybody's--are worth less than a sentence they might use which doesn't in your mind condemn a particular individual or group you regard as The Ultimate Evil.

Well, you have my apologies in any event – lots of ‘em.

But now, you see, you seem to be making the same error that you accuse me of earlier: you say “we can extrapolate from your reactions;” well, I did a little extrapolatin’ and decided you were on the political left – I was wrong; now, you do a little extrapolatin’ and determine that I believe anyone’s “lifetime efforts” are worth nothing. Uh, no. That is not anything like what I am saying (but see how calm I am remaining!). I never even said that your actions don’t count – your actions DO count, and I praise you for them. I simply focused on the fact that you will not condemn China for the evil that permeates the entire regime. Again, THIS (as I see it) is really the key point of our discussion. You are not willing to condemn the regime because you feel that it has done some good – or is not wholly evil. What I am saying is that it IS wholly evil, because AT ITS ROOT, it holds that the individual is of no consequence (again, this applies to nazism, Stalinism, and the Taliban as well). There is no greater crime that a nation can commit that to deny the rights of its citizens, and this is precisely what all these regimes have done. If you wish to “focus” our discussion, THIS is what I would suggest focusing on.

I suppose I should have been amused, rather than upset; after all, to jump as you had, doesn't make much of a case in and of itself for your critical apprehension. Put another way: if someone were to ask me repeatedly for details concerning anything in my life, and then refuse to offer any judgement, I would be inclined to respect them a bit more than I had, earlier. But when a person instantly offers a snap judgement of my entire life's actions because I refuse to automatically condemn what they condemn, I should just shrug, and ignore it.

This is interesting. OK, lets say that you want to get to know me, and you ask all sorts of questions of me. Now you are saying (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong!), but you are saying that you would find it right and proper – after learning all sorts of things about me – it would be right and proper for you to then walk away without ANY judgement of me whatsoever - ? Is that right? You would find that to be “respectable” - ? OK, I would find that sick and wrong. What if the first thing out of my mouth (when you ask me about me) is: “I’m a pedophile and homophobe” - ? Still not willing to judge me? Look, we all have brains (really big ones! relatively speaking) so that we can THINK. We can perceive the world and then form concepts and make judgements and build skyscrapers and all sorts of good stuff. But taking in information and then letting it just sit there – with no attempt to organize and integrate and evaluate – well, what is the point? No, I believe that judgement is a supreme burden and a supreme gift upon the human race, and I would not voluntarily give it up for anything.

Let's go a bit deeper into this, if you don't mind. I'd like to get an answer to something I asked, above. I'd like to see if the kind of passion you bring to judge the beliefs of others, translates into the active goals allowed to rule your own life. Specifically, to repeat from before:

...have you ever picketed the UN because of Tibet? Have you ever organized a protest march because of Tianamen, or the Falun Gong? Do you make a point of buying in stores that support the cause of Tibet?

Ah, fable’s big questions! Nope, never picketed the UN. In fact, I have never been to New York. And, if I did visit NYC, the UN would not be on my list of stops. And, if I DID stop at the UN, I would probably not picket. BUT if I did picket the UN, my poster would not read: “China out of Tibet,” but rather “US out of UN.” That is a subject better left for another thread though, right? Nope, never organized a protest of ANY kind, and am not likely to. As for selective purchasing: I do in fact make every attempt to avoid products made in China. (Not always easy – ever tried to walk out of a Target store without something originating in China?) But this is as much selfish as otherwise: Chinese products, generally speaking, are poorly made.

No, I am not an activist in your sense, and if you feel that protests are the way to change the world, then I wish you all the success you can have. But I myself believe that discussion and debate are more powerful tools (can you tell?). Waving a sign out front of the UN building may influence some people, or raise their awareness – I hope so – but I much prefer a one-on-one discussion where I can fully and clearly state my views, and come to learn some opposing viewpoints. I may not accept those viewpoints, and my discussion may end in stalemate (as with Ivan), but sometimes, maybe, just once in a while, I will change somebody’s way of thinking. I think its worth a shot!

SO! There it is. I don’t know that much more need be said between us. I feel that you are becoming frustrated with the discussion, and I don’t want to risk any ill will (especially from a moderator); but I am perfectly willing to continue to debate as long as you like.

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 2:00 am

Originally posted by fable:
Yes, those Weasley pulsars will get you everytime. We've tried speaking to him about 'em, but he goes Pod Person on us.

I've got the Masterminds of Weaseland working on it.First signs are promising,he is turning into a Communicator.(Possibly worse)