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TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:02 pm

[QUOTE=Ravager]Though I expect many people would be content to avoid the true happiness if it meant missing out on such pain.[/QUOTE]

*Raises hand* Happiness is too much work.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:06 pm

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]*Raises hand* Happiness is too much work.[/QUOTE]
*nods* If I don't know what true happiness is, I don't know what I've been missing out on and it might not be worth it anyway.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:07 pm

I truly do not agree with that lesson Magrus.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:14 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]I truly do not agree with that lesson Magrus.[/QUOTE]

No? Did you understand the worth of money, truly understand the concept, worth and implications involved with all of it until you learned what everything cost in your daily life? It is essentially the same principle...

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:15 pm

[QUOTE=Ravager]*nods* If I don't know what true happiness is, I don't know what I've been missing out on and it might not be worth it anyway.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I always knew I liked you Rav.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:22 pm

[QUOTE=Magrus]
Lesson of the Day:

In order to truly appreciate happiness, contentment and love, you must understand and appreciate true pain. One does not come without the other far behind.

[/QUOTE]

Bah. Smacks of Calvinism

Many people suffer true pain from an early age. They often don't ever find happiness contentment or love their whole lives. They can't even imagine it. Such people are crippled and they spread pain around them. It is not inevitable but it is common. Hurt just hurts. There is nothing to say it has a positive side at all. It is not like money Mag. It is like amputation. An amputee might truly appreciate the value of two legs. What good is that?

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:23 pm

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]Exactly. I always knew I liked you Rav.

[/QUOTE]

Heh. You should have seen the card I got for my mother on her birthday...there was a great message on it. :laugh:

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:29 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]Bah. Smacks of Calvinism

Many people suffer true pain from an early age. They often don't ever find happiness contentment or love their whole lives. They can't even imagine it. Such people are crippled and they spread pain around them. It is not inevitable but it is common. Hurt just hurts. There is nothing to say it has a positive side at all. It is not like money Mag. It is like amputation. An amputee might truly appreciate the value of two legs. What good is that?[/QUOTE]

Meh, you're looking at things the opposite way. There is a difference in looking at things the opposite way I think. Living a life full of pain has no guarantees of happiness, you are correct there. You can feel happiness and contentment without pain every entering your life, yes. However, I have the firm belief that I comprehend the worth of said emotions far better given my experiences with the emotions that are the exact opposite.

I know how rock bottom feels, and I can appreciate true happiness, and feeling content with my situation far better than most because of it. Living "free" your whole life is something you take for granted until that freedomis threatened or taken away from you. If you grow up rich, you cannot comprehend what it is to be poor unless that money is taken from you. If you have always been bigger and stronger than everyone else, you cannot truly understand how it feels to be intimidated and scared by others based on size and appearance alone.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:37 pm

How can you really tell what true happiness is though? It may be possible to be even happier some other way...

Though, I think this lesson was more for the benefit of Luis.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:45 pm

Magrus wrote: I have the firm belief that I comprehend the worth of said emotions far better given my experiences with the emotions that are the exact opposite.

That is admirable, Magrus, and I am glad it has worked out that way for you.

Living "free" your whole life is something you take for granted until that freedomis threatened or taken away from you. If you grow up rich, you cannot comprehend what it is to be poor unless that money is taken from you. If you have always been bigger and stronger than everyone else, you cannot truly understand how it feels to be intimidated and scared by others based on size and appearance alone.

There is some truth in this, but no value that I can see that makes it worth it. Frankly why would you want to understand what it is like to be poor or scared? Character building? For some perhaps. For many there is no gain at all. They are poor and scared their whole lives. You must have known people who have been like that. They do not appreciate happiness at any level. As you said, they believe the other is not far behind. They poison the well of contentment because of that belief.

That is a tragedy

The Balance · Post by **The Balance** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:54 am

Wow!

How could I miss the MCOPCDAWD ??
It is too late for lessons 19 and 42

19 Yesterday's lesson:
Don't allow young women to drop you off at their friends house for the night. You won't come home for a few days.

42 Lesson of the Day:
When answering the door after just waking up, be sure to wear pants. Awkward silences occur otherwise.

From now on i'll pay more attention especially to lesson 37 !

37 Luis's lesson of the day:
Never poke a Bee hive unless you're certain it has enough honey to overcome the pain of the bites.

slade · Post by **slade** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:06 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]Frankly why would you want to understand what it is like to be poor or scared?[/QUOTE]
so you can appreciate what you have, in this world there are people who are wasteful and dont charish what they have, while others are out there selling themselves to get what they need to live or going to the extremes to get them.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:23 am

I do not think there is any need to experience poverty and fear to understand it. Where would you draw the line? Have we no chance of appreciating what we have unless we have spent time in a refugee camp? Or is living on welfare benefits in a country like this enough? How long do we have to do it for?

I cannot wish bad things on people for their education, no matter how selfish or unfeeling or careless they may appear to be. Some good things can come out of necessary evil but it is not that common. And the younger the person who experiences the pain the worse the damage. perhaps. There must be other ways to teach if people need to learn. I don't think most people thought the Chinese forced re-education programmes were a great idea

slade · Post by **slade** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:28 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]I do not think there is any need to experience poverty and fear to understand it. Where would you draw the line? Have we no chance of appreciating what we have unless we have spent time in a refugee camp? Or is living on welfare benefits in a country like this enough? How long do we have to do it for?

I cannot wish bad things on people for their education, no matter how selfish or unfeeling or careless they may appear to be. Some good things can come out of necessary evil but it is not that common. And the younger the person who experiences the pain the worse the damage. perhaps. There must be other ways to teach if people need to learn. I don't think most people thought the Chinese forced re-education programmes were a great idea[/QUOTE]

Well as far as I understood the lesson it never said you had to experience it

....it said appreciate...........but if you have ever experienced them then you are more likely to understand them....I think that is what Mag was trying to imply

I dont need my arm to be cut off to apprecaite it.....when I broke it I did in a way understand what it would be like to lose a limb too bad it was the right arm Im left handed so I was spared that experience

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:36 am

@Slade. My post wasn't very accurate. Mag said that if you grow up rich you cannot understand what it is like to be poor unless you have the money taken off you. That suggests you need the experience.I do not think that is right. And I fear to accept it. He also said If you have always been bigger and stronger than everyone else, you cannot truly understand how it feels to be intimidated and scared by others based on size and appearance alone. This is not fatal since everyone was a child and must have been smaller than others at one time. But if this is in the context of loving adults and only peer group is at issue, it implies that the strong can never understand the weak. What a horrifying conclusion

slade · Post by **slade** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:48 am

[QUOTE=Fiona]@Slade. My post wasn't very accurate. Mag said that if you grow up rich you cannot understand what it is like to be poor unless you have the money taken off you. That suggests you need the experience.I do not think that is right. And I fear to accept it. He also said If you have always been bigger and stronger than everyone else, you cannot truly understand how it feels to be intimidated and scared by others based on size and appearance alone. This is not fatal since everyone was a child and must have been smaller than others at one time. But if this is in the context of loving adults and only peer group is at issue, it implies that the strong can never understand the weak. What a horrifying conclusion

[/QUOTE]

The problem with this is that no matter how bad or wrong this may sound it has truth to them.

example. I hope I can make this understandable.
I am a man and you are a woman. I can apprecaite you being a woman and vice versa, but I can never understand what it would be like to be a woman..I would have to be one

no matter how I try to understand I will never because im a man an will be treated as one...and the same for you, you couldnt understand what it would be like to be one, sure you can "assume" what it would be like with everything you have seen but you could never really know.

I could appreciate childbirth but I would never know or understand what a woman goes through really...no matter how I much I try to fill those shoes Il be a 6 and that person will be a size 13

as far as your rich and poor thing.....sure a rich person could understand it to a point but not the full picture...in the end that rich person will be treated as a rich person and not as a poor one.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:52 am

Oh I agree there are limits to empathy. I am not arguing that. But we can get enough understanding to treat each other as fully human without experiencing everything. If we can't we are doomed. And I do not think we are very different. We have much more in common than we have difference, no matter who we are. So I believe

slade · Post by **slade** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:00 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]Oh I agree there are limits to empathy. I am not arguing that. But we can get enough understanding to treat each other as fully human without experiencing everything. If we can't we are doomed. And I do not think we are very different. We have much more in common than we have difference, no matter who we are. So I believe

[/QUOTE]

Yes this is true, but only to a point, you have to remember that. And that point will always be up to a point...because even if you experience it its up to you whether you want to understand it, but also we all think,feel and react differently.......

when someone says I feel terrible and miserable...my mom just died.....and then someone tries to help the person out and says I know how you feel I just lost my brother.

no they dont know how that person feels people feel different things you cant compare ones lose to another even if they had both lost their mothers you still could compare your pain the only thing you guys could understand would be you guys having a lose....thats about it each person has there own way of dealing with there one troubles or pain and no experience can ever come close to understanding that persons pain or experience.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:02 pm

That is also true. But then I do not see how experiencing the thing helps. Might as well stay comfortable. That's logic

slade · Post by **slade** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:17 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]That is also true. But then I do not see how experiencing the thing helps. Might as well stay comfortable. That's logic

[/QUOTE]
yeah I guess

My mother always tells my younger siblings that they should not throw away there food like that(if they dont like it they throw it away), that my parents work hard to put food on the table and that they dont understand how hard it is to do that just so that they can throw it all away.....that there are children all around the world who wish they could eat what they are eating. My mom usually stops there...no sense in ruining a childs day with topics on how the world is a terrible place to live in, well at least in certain places....I on the other hand have always appreciated it and when I started working I also appreciated it even more, not just at that point but when I would make money anyway I could and then save everything( Im not one to ever ask for anything that I want I usually get it myself or someone gives it to me) so that I could buy what I want...I started to appreciate my mother more for all those sacrifices she has made or done for me...who with each pay she gets she uses it on us and what we need...and then having it all gone because she has to support us......I understood how easily it is to have money and then have none in a blink of an eye.....before I could not understand nor understand how it felt.............my father works on his feet all day from morning to night ......I can understand how it feels to be on your feet because I walk from place to place city to city to get around( I love it

) but it wasnt until I got a job working on my feet that I truely understood it. even now I can only understand part of the picture never the whole