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Originally posted by Xandax:
<STRONG>What I meant with my statement is that China can/will(IMO) put on a show to try to decive the world about all their "improvments" and when the olympic is over - it is back to normal. Just like in 1936</STRONG>

Yes I can agree China will, but instead of doing what we (The countries of the world) did in 1936 (Which failed and went on to be WW2) shouldn't we go there and see? Maybe their view of us will change and lead to a better China.

Sorry work calls I will be back in a couple of hours.

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Weasel ]

Xandax points out the publicity charade that Nazi Germany employed for the 1936 Olympics. It's only fair to note that China has pulled simillar ploys on a much, much smaller scale in the last several decades.

The one that comes most to mind followed a visit by Bush (the elder b*stard). Bush requested the release of a prominent civil rights activist from Chinese jails, where he'd spent the last eleven of twenty-one years. The Chinese government agreed, and some industrial deals were struck.

Once Bush went home, the Chinese government arrested the dissident again, on another series of similar charges. He is still in prison.

This is not an isolated incident. The Chinese recognize the value of the Western media, and play up to it in an effort to win economic benefits from the outside world. Then, they merrily go about arresting pacifist religious groups, massacring civilians, etc. Give them a chance? They've had thousands of chances since Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution. Perhaps it's time to change the strategy for dealing with 'em.

Originally posted by Weasel:
<STRONG>Yes I can agree China will, but instead of doing what we (The countries of the world) did in 1936 (Which failed and went on to be WW2) shouldn't we go there and see? Maybe their view of us will change and lead to a better China.</STRONG>

We can hope so - but I don't think so.
I can't see a country like China change for real - just because of the Olympics.

Originally posted by Weasel:
<STRONG>Now Taiwan supports them, and if any country has a reason not to like China, they do. They are giving them (The Chinese Gov.) a chance, shouldn't we? Yes they have the worst human rights issues, but do you all want to shut China off?

</STRONG>

Originally posted by Fable:
<STRONG>
Yeah, but @Weasel, you're forgetting that this is the same China that has publically and privately called Taiwan a "rogue state" and threatened repeatedly to invade. Taiwan isn't doing this to give the Chinese government "a chance." Their reasons are pragmatic: if we make nice to this enormous 500-pound ape, maybe it won't sit on us when it goes to the dinner table.</STRONG>

I think Fable is right here about Taiwan's motives. Now, all eyes are going to look at China, and Taiwan knows they will not be invaded by China at least until 2008.

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>I think it's a travesty to hold the games in China, and it sickens me the way that international powers continue to remain blithely unconcerned about Tibet, Burma and China itself. Canada's PM was self-rightiously spouting off about China's human rights record when in a couple of months he'll be going off on a trade mission to China (no doubt, knee pads in tow).
Seems to me that something quite similar happened in 1936.........</STRONG>

I couldn't agree more with you, DW. The EU, the US, the G8 countries...everybody acknowledge China's violations to the human rights, but with the other hand they act like the only concern is the potential market of 1.3 billion consumers...

I don't think an event like the Olympics is going to change a lot in China. It's good for the people, I think, but long term, no change will come because of this. In countries where HR violations are made as consequenses of the socioeconimic problems, a commercial event like the Olympics might have a good effect, but China's problems are mainly of an ideologic nature. I think it will be like Xandax postulates. Btw, have anyone here seen the documentary shot by British journalists with hidden cameras in North Corea?

Btw, have anyone here seen the documentary shot by British journalists with hidden cameras in North Corea?

What's it like, @C Elegans? Have you seen it?

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>What's it like, @C Elegans? Have you seen it?</STRONG>

I have only seen short bits of it, but my parents and several of my friends have related the content to me. I think it's even worse than I thought. Most people live in camps where starvation is the least of their problems, torture, rape and murder is everyday business. The camp prisoners are often used as slaves and some children are sold. (Maybe to foreign pedophiles? All these children the European pedophiles kill off must come from somewhere.)
In short, it's unspeakable horror, just like Hitler or Stalin's camps. Swedish TV is going to show this film again soon, and this time I will not miss it.

That's terrible that such horrors exist in the modern world -- that completely disgusts and revolts me.

could you tape it for me?

Sure, but since I'm Swedish I have PAL, you have NTSC. If you can get a possibility to watch a PAL recording, I'll let you know when it's on and try remembering to tape it.

Thanks for the offer C Elegans, but I was just being facetious in a self-righteous rubbernecking kind of way.

Besides, I can think of a couple other things in Sweden I'd rather see taped than a British documentary!

Originally posted by Xandax:
<STRONG>We can hope so - but I don't think so.
I can't see a country like China change for real - just because of the Olympics.</STRONG>

One little rock can start an avalache.


I don't have all the answers to world problems and I will not hate the Chinese just because of their Government which the people didn't choose.

It will be held there, it was voted on and they won. It was said they bought their votes, well the 'Holy than thou' JFK bought his way in too. G. Bush jr. bought his way in too.


The solutions...

1. Go and see and hope for change.
2. Boycott, and watch how many really do this.
3. Invade them and wipe them off the earth.

I will hope for choose 1., watch greed over take 2. and do my part for my country if 3. happens to be the way.

@El Kid: Oh, I thought you meant you wished me to send you the tape with snail mail.

@Weasel: Like you I hope for the best, but I do not believe it. Alternative 2 only works during certain circumstances (look at South Africa during the Apartheid for instance) and does not seem realistic presently. Alt 3 is totally unacceptable. So, there's really no alternative, is it?

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>@Weasel: Like you I hope for the best, but I do not believe it. Alternative 2 only works during certain circumstances (look at South Africa during the Apartheid for instance) and does not seem realistic presently. Alt 3 is totally unacceptable. So, there's really no alternative, is it?</STRONG>

None that I can see C Elegans. Like I said I don't have all the answers. If I could stop all the bad things in the world I would, but I can't.

I will exit this debate, the chooses are there and everyone knows mine. No reason for me to talk any more on this subject, unless someone has some different ideas.

Two words: Fiftyfirst State!

US saves the day. Jiang made second district Congressman. Chinese able to have daughters again. Everyone happy.

Originally posted by El Cid:
<STRONG>Two words: Fiftyfirst State!

US saves the day. Jiang made second district Congressman. Chinese able to have daughters again. Everyone happy. </STRONG>

Good God NO!!! Look at the problems we the US have now. Add (1.3 Billion? right). I don't even want to think about this.

@El Cid-AFAIK, the Chinese are allowed to have daughters.They just prefer having boys and because of their current policy, we don't see many families having girls

Now, now, let's not underestimate the population control horror in China. The "one-child" policy coupled with strict enforcementand strong cultural traditions has caused the death and abandonment of countless female newborns.

We could add some new Olympic Events: Fetus Poisoning, 100m Infant Abandonment and Freestyle Foot-Binding!

@El Cid-AFAIK, the Chinese are allowed to have daughters.They just prefer having boys and because of their current policy, we don't see many families having girls

Yes, female infanticide is apparently rampant in China..........

@Eminem? You mentioned Canada's "outstanding HR record". For a second, I thought that you were joking. <sigh>

Perhaps you've forgotten, or didn't hear about, the NAFTA conference earlier this summer. The cops built a 6km fence around the conference area, emptied out as many jails as they could, deployed thousands of cops, and poured enough tear gas on them to make the streets stink weeks later. For more fun, I've been told that the residue from this cr*p is going to cause birth defects for ten years.

Additionally, there's Canada's "wonderful" history with the Native Americans. Not quite as violent as the yahoos in the states, just some "minor" systematic abuse in the imposed school system, with priests beating children if they spoke their own language. Stuff like that. And, Canada comes in so high on the UN charts because they omit the Native population from their statistics. (this isn't just a scurrilous rumor, I got it from a prof).

Okay, so every country is ruled by b*tth**ds. Although I haven't heard of any nasty happenings in Jamaica.

So Beijing won. I'm not entirely surprised. I guessed that the least deserving would win. China will pretend to be nice while the foreign (non-torturable) media's cameras are running, and then probably arrest the entire Olympic crew and send them off for "reprogramming".

The general rule we can draw from this outcome is that, if you're big, you're unstoppable and can do anything you want. Applies to the US, to China, to all of the rich industrial countries. You can welch on treaties (Kyoto and, more recently, a 1972 treaty banning missile bases), rape and pollute the planet, put all of your citizens into horrible McJobs or worse, because you're rich and have nukes. Charming. And my parents taught me not to be a bully.

The only ending appropriate to this post is:
"Hail the revolution!"

@Outsider, you neglected to mention that during the 1960s there was a Canadian federal policy of taking Inuit (native Canadian) children from their homes to live with white families. This was attempted as an "experiment" without public knowledge on a specific Inuit community, with the idea of literally emptying the culture. It failed, and only recently have some of the children who were forcibly removed from their birth parents been able to gain access to their records. It's been frontpage news in Canada.