Please Read

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:37 pm

We still don't know who is responsible for this, but evidence seems to be pointing at Osama ibn Laden.

I found this interview, done in 1998, but it's still interesting and scary to get a glimpse of this mans mind:

[url="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/terror_980609.html"]ABC interview with Bin Laden 1998[/url]

hamstermutiny · Post by **hamstermutiny** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:56 pm

No one in their right mind would claim responsability.

A brief background, for anyone curious:
Recent terrorist attacks drew minimal public intrest. The average citizen really didn't pay much attention to the bombings of the USS Cole, American barracks in Suadi Arabia, US Embassies in Africa, and whatever else at the moment I've forgotten to list. However our government did make sure to fire a few cruise missiles somewhere for good measure. Even if the attacks had a minimal,(Afghanastan terrorist training camps, 20 people reportedly killed, minor buildings destroyed) to down right embarassing (A privatly owned Sudanese pharmaceutical factory destroyed. Which they said was producing chemicals weapons. Oops....) results. Any more severe actions would have drawn sizable ammounts of protest.

This however has sent the entire nation into complete outrage. With even some people that could be consirded extreme liberals crying out for retaliation. A poll on ABC, NBC or CBS (Granted, it was only a few hours afterwards and it was a small number of people. I do believe, however, they share the feelings of the vast majority, and I doubt tempers have settled in a few hours.) showed support for retaliation was in the mid 90's, and support for war (If necessary, which I hope is not the case.) was in the high 80's. Any protest is going to be small and fall on deaf ears.

Point of Background?
Basically the government is facing extreme pressure to use all means possible to strike at something. (group or nation) Which it most certainly will, against the terrorist group responsable, and any nation that will harbor them. Anyone who claims responsability will turn the attention of the government, and a very large, highly modern, and ready (possibly even eager) military on themselves.

(Yes this is a bit long, but I felt I had to say this before someone decided to say: Of course f%&*%#$ bastards aren't going to make claims. Becuase were going to lay the smack down on their f&^)%&% a@$&%! Or something such....)

As for who did it? All evidence gathered(we're hearing of) points to strongly Islamic groups. With some connections to Osama Bin Laden begining to develop.

If you're interested in any and all late breaking information checkout: [url="http://www.abc.com"]www.abc.com[/url] , [url="http://www.cbs.com"]www.cbs.com[/url] , [url="http://www.nbc.com"]www.nbc.com[/url] , or [url="http://www.cnn.com"]www.cnn.com[/url] .
They're all American networks and while I can't say they hold anything over the BBC, and other news network websites, they are likly the best source of info at the moment.

Plainsong · Post by **Plainsong** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 9:23 pm

Buck:

I found your call for neutrality and thoughtfulness on your website to be, quite frankly, surprisingly mature. I am very proud that you are my brother.

As you obviously know from your remarks, it is not a time to blame an entire people. Islam is a caring and loving religion not remarkably different from Christianity or Judaism. It would compound tragedy if the actions of maniacs were to undermine our freedom of religion, religious tolerance and respect for religious diversity. Madmen who do this sort of thing are not accurate representatives of Islam or any other major religion.

Again, thanks for being such an enlightened person. I am very proud that you are my brother.

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:19 pm

I would like to echo the compassionate sentiments of all those those before me and add remarks that I've posted elsewhere.

I work in the travel industry. Any time an aircraft goes down, it tears at my heart, as "there, but for the grace of God, go I".

This goes way beyond that. I am shocked and appalled at the events that have taken place over the past day or so. That a plane full of innocent people could be used as a weapon...

The people that did this did not "give up their lives for their cause". The gave their lives to kill as many innocent people as they could. There is a big difference.

I am angered. Outraged! I don't know how to feel, but I don't think there is any correct way to deal with the emotions an event like this will bring. My thoughts and my prayers are with all those who lost loved ones and friends. We will all feel the effects of this. We will all be only one or two steps away from losing someone close in this tragedy.

Thank you all who have offered condolences. I would like to add my voice to join with theirs in in a worldwide cry of support and sympathy. God bless us all in this time of mourning.

Gunga · Post by **Gunga** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:39 am

Hello all.

I can't even begin to find words to all the people that this act of terrorism has affected. My symphaties.

I'd like to share the situation as I see it. But first some facts:
- US (according to Bush) is on a brink of declaring a war, as soon as the culprit is found
- NATO is discussing wheter or not stand behind US
- Blame seems to be already laden on Osama Bin Laden (Although Taliban ambassador to Pakistan has told Helsingin Sanomat, a newspaper in Finland, that Osama Bin Laden has no phone-, TV- or internet connections and is unable to meet people, therefore being unable to orchestrate an act of sorts)

Then comes a "fact", for my friend emailed me something curious and frightening, a verse of Nostradamus:

<quote>
In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart
by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb. The
third big war will begin when the big city is burning.
- Nostradamus 1654

City of God: New York
Two Brothers: World Trade Towers
Fortress: Pentagon
Great Leader: ???
Big City: New York
<unquote>

Could he really foresee this and how or if this really is a genuine Nostradamus, I don't know, but under all things happened, this affair paints a bleak picture of world tomorrow.

Worst case: WW3. This time it's US and NATO (and supporters) against Islam.
Not-so-worst: Increase in # of terrorist acts, if US/NATO bombardments take place and right-wing islamese declare Jihad.

... just my .02€

- Gunga
- a lurker most, unable to remain silent.

PS. Sheesh what a burst of pessimism. But if anything good comes out of this, I'll be doubly glad.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:40 am

First of all, my deepest sympathies to all that are touched by this horrid, despicable act of senseless violence. It is beyond my comprehension why anyone would want to do such a deplorable act against other persons.

Originally posted by Gunga:
<STRONG>

In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart
by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb. The
third big war will begin when the big city is burning.
- Nostradamus 1654

City of God: New York
Two Brothers: World Trade Towers
Fortress: Pentagon
Great Leader: ???
Big City: New York
</STRONG>

Nostradamus comes up every time there is a great disaster. He has made so many predictions, that some of them may ring true at any given moment. What usually happens is that when he happens to have expressed a metaphore that fits, that is deemed as proof, while every time the events do not turn out in the described fashion, the prophecy is for a future event and not applicable to the current. Thus, you can never prove him wrong no matter how many times his "predictions" fall short.

Personally, I hope and think that the democracies of the world will act sensibly and with unity against terrorism, and if it is handled in a just and publicly open fashion it may serve to inspire people all over the world to have solidarity with their fellow human beings.

EDIT: Speling erorrs

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Silur ]

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:30 am

Posted by Silur -

Personally, I hope and think that the democracies of the world will act sensibly and with unity against terrorism, and if it is handled in a just and publicly open fashion it may serve to inspire people all over the world to have solidarity with their fellow human beings.

I so hope for this too...

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:02 am

Someone sent this to me yesterday--written about the US by Canadians. While it's way more gung-ho patriotic than I would be, and fails to recognize that the US has committed huge wrongs (I know this, having lived in Central America) as well as huge rights...it's still good reading material right now.

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was
given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by
Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is
the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as
the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all
the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were
lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in
billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the
United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was
to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there.
I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American
communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars
into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, war mongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines
except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or
woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and
you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get
automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk
about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for
everybody to look at.

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here
on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian
laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking
down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When
the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke,
nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even
one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I
don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco
earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is
damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when
they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are
gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
those."

Stand proud, America!

Mr. Sprinkles · Post by **Mr. Sprinkles** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 5:57 pm

The Nostradamus quote is fake, he didn't write it.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 6:07 pm

Originally posted by Gunga:
<STRONG>In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart
by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb. The
third big war will begin when the big city is burning.
- Nostradamus 1654

City of God: New York
Two Brothers: World Trade Towers
Fortress: Pentagon
Great Leader: ???
Big City: New York</STRONG>

There are two versions of this going around, both fake. One has "In the city of York" instead of "In the city of God."

I just want to point out that New York City is not the city of God. Jerusalem is the city of God. Another, less important, observation, wouldn't you more likely talk about the Twin Towers as "sisters" rather than "brothers." It is far more common, especially by men, for inanimate objects to be spoken of as female than male.

I notice the question marks for the "great leader" and find those interesting. If that prediction were true, because all of it would be refering to places in the US, would it not be logical that the "great leader" is President Bush?

He won't be succumbing, though.

And that is my 2¢.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:40 am

@VoodooDali, that "Canadian" piece about the US has been making the rounds for more than twenty years, and was created by some rightwing US religious newspaper editor (whose name escapes me). It's demonstrably wrong, but it's also one of those pieces that's unstoppable: correct it, and it pops up elsewhere. Reminds me of the so-called "Petition Against God," which still turns up in rightwing religious congregations and draws petitions to the FCC, more than twenty years after the whole matter was quietly shelved.

On a more somber note, when my wife and I heard the news (via the BBC) in Budapest about the bombings, we were horrified, but not unduly surprised. Osama bin Laden is a classic fallen paladin. Think about it: had he been Christian, and lived during the Crusades, he would have been a much discussed and chronicled hero. A man of inordinate wealth, who chose to put it entirely at the service of Christianity, and lived in poverty himself. A person who vowed to go anywhere, anytime, to help Christians who were under attack by base followers of Mohammad. A rallying cry for those co-religionists who sought hope everywhere.

Definitely a paladin. But a paladin who has meditated on the horrors inflected on the purity of his religion and its followers for so long, that he has lost sight of his core religious values. The evil empire of consumerist Christianity woos away the followers of the Prophet more effectively than ever missionaries of fighters could manage; and where materialism doesn't work, there are the examples of military might applied against the Palestinians and Iraqis to turn to. Ignore all else; focus on these. Do this for years, fighting the good fight as you see your momentary successes in Albania or Bosnia countered by losses in the great war.

It's from such thoughts that paladins fall into terrorism. It's happened before, but never with such destructive might available.

All we can hope for is to stop this kind of madness striking again--but now our leaders are also willing to make bargains that regard the freedom fighters of other nations (such as those in Chechniya) as terrorists, to win friends. I wonder if that's truly the road to victory.

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:53 am

This single post by Fable illustrates why I, Yshania and others complained we missed Fable a lot when he was away.

Some people have difficulties with understanding how a man like Osama bin Laden can be popular and have support among some groups, even viewed as a hero.

King Richard Lionheart and his crusaders were viewed as heroes for a long time here in Europe. Imagine modern technology in the hands of those people who killed thousands of innocent men, women and children, burned their towns and destroyed their land.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:56 am

@C E - hear hear

@Fable - good post - and welcome back

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 7:07 am

@CE, Yshania, thanks.

@CE, there is an historically recorded instance where, at one major battle during the Crusades, the Islamic military forces under siege in a large city were starving. They decided to throw open the gates, push the inhabitants out, then flee on horseback as chaos ensued.

They did not think that Richard, the height of chivalry, would attack the inhabitants to get in the gates, as soon as they opened. He did. The feudal structure of medieval Europe segregated the newly created system of chivalry along class lines, with the third class (which comprised everyone except the nobility and the church) being outside the chivalric pale. Richard and his mounted knights slew most of the citizenry, then savagely attacked the astonished Islamic military within the gates, and won. It was considered a brilliant victory or a horrifying act of sacrilege at the time, depending upon your POV.

The boundaries between zeal and fanaticism are very murky.

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: fable ]