Harry Potter

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 2:48 pm

Thanks for the review Georgi

I'm hoping to see it tonight or tomorrow...

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:09 pm

Originally posted by loner72:
Thanks for the review Georgi I'm hoping to see it tonight or tomorrow...

No problem

Don't believe all that rubbish about not being able to get tickets for weeks... you just need to pick your timing well

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:09 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
Oh, and another thing...
Why was the title changed from the Philosopher's Stone to the Sorceror's Stone for America? (Originally for the book, and subsequently for the movie, which meant that two versions of some scenes had to be filmed...)

Maybe because all sense of history is lacking in the US, and we're not expected to realize that the term "Philospher's Stone" has an alchemical background. Americans will probably wonder what the hell philosophy has to do with the item.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:09 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
Oh, and another thing...
Why was the title changed from the Philosopher's Stone to the Sorceror's Stone for America? (Originally for the book, and subsequently for the movie, which meant that two versions of some scenes had to be filmed...)

Maybe because all sense of history is lacking in the US, and we're not expected to realize that the term "Philospher's Stone" has an alchemical background. Americans will probably wonder what the hell philosophy has to do with the item.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:18 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Maybe because all sense of history is lacking in the US, and we're not expected to realize that the term "Philospher's Stone" has an alchemical background. Americans will probably wonder what the hell philosophy has to do with the item.

Ummm, and we were supposed to know that?

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:38 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
Ummm, and we were supposed to know that?

You gotta betta idea, huh?

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:49 pm

Hey, its hard to get tickets over here in Toronto. Almost the whole weekend is booked.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:34 am

@Fable I mean, I didn't know the implications of "Philosopher's Stone", but I don't see that it made all that much difference, I just figured that was what it's called

You could well be right, I haven't seen any explanations other than sarcastic and derogatory ones

@Gaxx like I said, you have to pick your timing well

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 8:55 am

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:23 am

Originally posted by loner72:
I'm a little tired of people assuming that Americans are big stupid oafs with no education, totally lacking in knowledge of history, literature, and/or folklore...<snip>...

I agree.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:23 am

@Loner72 writes:
I'm a little tired of people assuming that Americans are big stupid oafs with no education, totally lacking in knowledge of history, literature, and/or folklore.

So am I. It's particularly nasty to be on the receiving end of this. However, there is good reason to believe that Americans do not as a group have the same knowledge of history, literature, and cultural lore as Western Europeans from a handful of countries. It's a matter of mindsets, I think, and Americans simply no longer place much value on these things. Consider: during the peak of the "Arcadian experiment" in the late 18th century South, children were regularly named Electra, Agamemmnon, Josephus, Cato, etc--a conscious effort on the part of many families to give voice to a presumed "rebirth" of what was then perceived as the Glory of Ancient Rome. In conservative tradition, some of those names even survived into the 20th century. But while you could find a very large number of middle and upper class Southerners in the late 18th century who knew the history and mythology of both ancient and modern times in depth, and could even quote (at length) passages from the Classics (memorized recitation was a popular form of entertainment in middle class gatherings), I strongly suspect that's no longer the case. In fact, it would surprise me if most Southerners even knew what Troy was. Somebody in one of the Star Treks, perhaps?

(I only mention the South, not because it is somehow inferior to the rest of the US in learning (it isn't), but because it once had a reputation for culture which contrasts well to modern times.)

Some Europeans assume Americans are stupid because the latter are frequently ignorant of the subjects I've mentioned. That's a big mistake that has been made repeatedly by European governments in the past when dealing with the US. De Gaulle, for instance, thought that he could lead American foreign policy by the nose after WW II. His ambassador was quickly put in his place by Truman, who basically told him that De Gaulle's butt was saved by American bullets. Completely true or not, it had enough truth to infuriate the French leader, who had no easy reply at hand.

Personally, I value just the things the US doesn't--and not just history, but a sense of history, a link to a civilization and concepts much older than the US, itself. If I take the US to task for its cultural failings, maybe you can grant me the opportunity to rant a bit, seeing as how I'm one very small voice unable to be heard over the several hundred million cheers for American consumerism.

As for my "reason" offered for the change of HP film title, here, that was intended to be sarcastic, and not taken quite seriously. I should have included a wink, but my eye stuck, that day.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Recoba · Post by **Recoba** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:31 am

Whats it like really? I've read the reviews, but with all the hype I thought I might be another Phantom Menace

People seem to like it on this board though. I might see it next weekend. I enjoyed the books.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: Recoba ]

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:35 am

Originally posted by fable:
...<snip>...Personally, I value just the things the US doesn't--and not just history, but a sense of history, a link to a civilization and concepts much older than the US, itself. If I take the US to task for its cultural failings, maybe you can grant me the opportunity to rant a bit, seeing as how I'm one very small voice unable to be heard over the several hundred million cheers for American consumerism.

As for my "reason" offered for the change of HP film title, here, that was intended to be sarcastic, and not taken quite seriously. I should have included a wink, but my eye stuck, that day.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Indeed, I STILL cannot tell whether you are being sarcastic, as the first of the paragraphs quoted above would seem (to me) to indicate that everyone in America is blinded by "consumerism" - EXCEPT YOU. Please clarify.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:26 am

Originally posted by Lazarus:
Indeed, I STILL cannot tell whether you are being sarcastic, as the first of the paragraphs quoted above would seem (to me) to indicate that everyone in America is blinded by "consumerism" - EXCEPT YOU. Please clarify.

Before we deal with consumerism, let's tackle the use of that word, "blinded." I neither said nor implied that America was blinded by anything: stupified by it to the exclusion of all else, including their own longterm goals. in fact, I took some pains to point that the US isn't made up of stupid or blinded people, in answer to another poster's remarks:

Some Europeans assume Americans are stupid because the latter are frequently ignorant of the subjects I've mentioned. That's a big mistake that has been made repeatedly by European governments in the past when dealing with the US. De Gaulle, for instance, thought that he could lead American foreign policy by the nose after WW II. His ambassador was quickly put in his place by Truman, who basically told him that De Gaulle's butt was saved by American bullets. Completely true or not, it had enough truth to infuriate the French leader, who had no easy reply at hand.

Admittedly this is just a single example, and probably not a very well chosen one, but my point is not the example's quality, but the fact that I found it important to rebut arguments we always hear about American stupidity. America as a culture simply has different goals than Western Europe.

I do think that the US has largely evolved into a consumerist nation. It consumes more natural and processed resources by far than any other nation on earth. Its people spend more than twice the time watching television (4 hours/night, by a survey done approximately 6 years ago) as the British, who were the largest watchers of television in Europe. Its film industry is the largest in the world, as is its record and gaming industries. I think it's fair to say that American citizens know what they want, and seek it out, so again, blindness isn't an issue. All I'm saying is that I don't want these same things; that there are some others, in a minority, who feel the same way; and who have both a different view of the world in general, and different sources of education and entertainment.

Again, I apologize for that missing wink. In the future, I'll try to develop a virtual tick so it's never forgotten.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:33 am

Originally posted by loner72:
I'm a little tired of people assuming that Americans are big stupid oafs with no education, totally lacking in knowledge of history, literature, and/or folklore.

Ever come across an American tourist trying to communicate with somebody who doesn't understand english?

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 3:12 pm

LOL...
Fable, some interesting notes from the report of the US Dept of Education--International Comparison.

The Bad News
Data from the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) suggests that the relative international standing of U.S. students declines as they progress through school. In both subject areas, our students perform above the international average in grade 4, close to the international average in grade 8, and considerably below it in grade 12.

In twelfth-grade, the achievement scores of both our overall student population tested on general mathematics and science knowledge, and of our more advance students tested in mathematics and physics, were well below the international average.

The Good News
U.S. students perform relatively well in reading compared with their international counterparts. Out of 27 countries in fourth-grade and 31 countries in ninth-grade, only Finland's achievement was significantly higher than that of the U.S.

AND--to show what complicates the issue:
The United States has close to 20 percent of the adult population at both the high and low ends of the literacy scale. In contrast, European countries tend to have an adult population with skills concentrated in the middle literacy levels.

So--a fifth of the US population is functionally illiterate, which is why most fast food restaurants have pictures of all the food you can order...Also Denny's. But another fifth of the population is highly literate, more so than most Europeans (according to that study). I think it just goes to show how complex American society is, and that people from other countries can't judge us easily based on experiences with a few.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 5:21 pm

Originally posted by loner72:
If the film title was changed as a bow to American ignorance, why was the book title not changed in the same way? Why was "Philosopher's Stone" kept for the American release of the book?

As I understand it, the book title was changed, and that's why they changed it for the movie as well... is this incorrect?

Lastly -- you have to consider the basic rules of novel-to-film transition. Things that work in a book simply will not work on film.

Which actually doesn't explain anything at all in this case. If the trouble was with novel-to-film transition, then why would it have been changed only for US release? None of your possible reasons for changing the title are valid specifically for America, which is the question at hand.

BTW, I am not assuming that everyone in the USA is stupid, I am just incredulous of the apparent fact that it seems whoever chose to change the title seemed to think so...

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 5:51 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
None of your possible reasons for changing the title are valid specifically for America, which is the question at hand.

Never mind. You're right. The post has been edited. I'm obviously not thinking clearly.

As for the book's title being changed, I believe I've seen it on shelves here as Philosopher's Stone; but I could be mistaken. I know nothing about the books so I'm going to stay clear of this discussion from now on.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:16 pm

I've been reading a few reviews on the book by British writers familiar with the American version. Here's from one of 'em:

"Unfortunately, this series is not the only example where American publishers feel it neccessary to bastardize text to Americanise the vocabulary and even entire sentence structure in an effort to make the book more readable to what some consider a less literate population.

Now, before you go thinking that I am insulting you, please realize that it is not me, rather the publishers whom have taken the position...."

And from a second:

"It also seems that the word "philosopher" has more of a magical meaning in the UK. In America the book title would have been the equivalent of "Harry Potter and The Someone Who Studies The Meaning of Life Stone" which doesn't have quite the same ring to it."

Now, this last has the sound of a reviewer's guess about it, but what I like is that it's also *my* guess, mentioned above.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that the lack of a certain cultural background means books may get rewritten or retitled for the American market.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:22 pm

Originally posted by fable:
I have one major problem with the books (of which I've read the first three). The whole HP universe is built around the notion that there are a huge number of people who are ordinary and powerless, while a privileged few are gifted to be wonderful, colorful, and magical. The latter are everything. The former are to be despised, pitied, or treated like pets because they're "cute."

To me, everybody's got the potential to be something special, and I don't think kids should be brought up on feudal crap that gets them thinking along lines of "belonging to the only worthwhile group around."

Yeah, I know I'm bucking the marketing hype with this. Not for the first time.

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Although I have read all four books (ostensibly, to my six-year-old son

)I decided to hold off posting in this thread until seeing the movie.

I have to say, the film brought back all the magic I first felt when I initially picked up The Philosopher's Stoneat story time.......

@Fable, I understand the points that you make........but I tend to disagree

While it can certainly be argued that these books could foster a sense of elitism.....I would suggest that something other is at work.

Harry Potter is the child who is different. He does not fit into his enviroment, he is not readily accepted by his adopted family.......by his peer group. He is the shy child who longs to escape, to fly.....to find a place where he belongs. And in Harry's case, those dreams come true. This sense is especially apparent during one of the first scenes of the movie. We see Harry and his pet owl perched on a window ledge after experiencing his first evening at Hogwart's (the school for young magic users). His expression says it all, he has found a home and acceptance at last.......

I have been to the Warner Bros, Harry Potter website......and I was appalled by the overt commercialization that has occurred.

Nonetheless, I can honestly say that watching the film with my son and partner was a magical experience.......and magic is one of the things that childhood should be about.