Liches and mase of disruption?

Aegnor · Post by **Aegnor** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 9:40 am

geh4th:

Glad to see somebody else out there who enjoyed I.C.E.'s role playing system. I no longer play, but I have that glossy full colour map of Middle Earth somewhere.

I've always assumed that liches were Gary Gygax's way of ripping off the Ringwraiths for AD&D without getting sued. Is this so, or is there an older origin of this dangerous creature.

BTW, I think Viconia must have been 14th or 15th when she turned a lich for me.....and took control of it. Don't ask me which lich, there were so damn many....

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:09 am

If you haven't seen the trailer yet, go to tolkien.cro.net/rings/html. It's a new one. Also some good interviews with the director. So far the casting, the directors view of Tolkiens world, the special effects, and everything else look very promising. The only thing that worries me so far is that it looks like they may play up the romance between Aragorn and Arwen Evenstar, or even the unrequitted love between Aragorn and Eowyn, over and above the storyline in order to appeal to the female audience. This could twist the plot something fierce as they're talking about putting her (either) in where they really weren't, to give a break from the *eyes rolling* overly male storyline.

People who have not read the books are not being allowed into the theatres by the way.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:12 am

LOL Foul!

How are they testing that? 20 questions?!

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:29 am

Grunting One:
Yes, in select theatres, each potential viewer first buys a ticket, and then is asked three questions ranging in difficulty from easy (four different names for Mithrandir), medium (how many creatures wore the One Ring throughout the LoTR) to difficult (name the three main mixed marriages beteen Men and Elves, and the members' lineage). If the person gets all three correct, the purchase price of the ticket is refunded (therefore not forcing the holder to contribute to the commercialization of Middle-Earth. If the holder answers 1 and 2 correctly, but misses question three, he is permitted to enter, but not allowed to speak or move at all during the film. Furthermore, he or she shall be made to stand at the back of the theatre and forced to hand over all popcorn, etc. to the true fans.

If any person shall not answer the first question correctly, he or she will be directed to a “special entrance” which is located around the back of the theatre, whereupon he/she shall be seized by large men wearing black and pummeled into oblivion and left by the garbage bins to rot with the rancid Milk Duds and ju-ju bees.

There have been several outcries about the “injustice” of this procedure, but reports have it that they have not been made by reliable persons, and after all the theatres are independently owned, and it’s a free country, right?

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I will drive my enemies before me, take their souls and listen to the lamentation of their women echo in the Cavern of Khazad-dum.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:39 am

LOL foul,
I forgot the new trialer has been out since the 19th. I will have to go take a look at it. I assume that we will both be in line about a week prior to opening day?

BTW I heard a nasty rumour the Arwen and Eowyn would be rolled into one character- kind of a Zena warrior princess (ugh) any truth to this?

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:48 am

The director has been quoted as saying, no that rumor is not true, but I've seen clips depicting Arwen where Eowyn was supposed to be...I'll not forgive that kind of plot change. Understandably, some things have to change to fit the new format, but some DON'T.

I'll be seeing it on opening day, yes, and the next day too... I've been hoping someone would do this since I starting reading Tolkien when I was 6. No matter how it is exectuted, I'll enjoy it. Take a look at the Grey Haves Ring site, it has 20-30 Real Player clips of the director answering fan questions, good stuff..

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:03 pm

Originally posted by Mhr'djynn:
thanks, i will, and i agree. i didn't even know a movie was coming out but i will definitely make the effort to get as far as possible before buckling to the lure of film.

!! I'm amazed. Here in the UK it is being touted as THE film of 2001 - and its not even due out until 19th December. Erm, I mean, sometime in December, I'm not really bothered or having sleepless nights thinking about it or anything

Second most expensive film ever, apparently, although it hardly counts because they actually filmed all three at once.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:05 pm

I bet you were another one of those people looking for the 'rest' of the Rankin and Bass as well as the Bakshi trilogies. Neither was perfect, but by god, finish the bloody things!

Sounds like my Arwen/Eowyn rumor my have some basis in fact. Most disapointing. If I hear anyone telling Galadrial "You go, girl" I am going to cry.

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:14 pm

I enjoyed the animated films as well, though the first (of the LoTF)was infinately better directed than the second... I mean the Nazgul as F*UCKING BLACK PEGASUSES?!?!?!

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:32 pm

Originally posted by FoulDwimmerlaik:
Grunting One:
Yes, in select theatres, each potential viewer first buys a ticket, and then is asked three questions ranging in difficulty from easy (four different names for Mithrandir), medium (how many creatures wore the One Ring throughout the LoTR) to difficult (name the three main mixed marriages beteen Men and Elves, and the members' lineage).

Well, I *had* to try this one.

Mithrandir = Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf the White, The Grey Pilgrim, Olorin

Ring Wearers = Bilbo Baggins, Frodo Baggins, Sam Gamgee, Tom Bombadil, Smeagol Gollum - LotR also has historical references to Isildur (and Sauron, obviously) wearing it.

Half-Elven Lineages: Well, there's Beren & Luthien, the first coupling of mortal and immortal. Next comes Earendil the Mariner and Elwing, who begat Elrond and Elros. Then there's Aragorn & Arwen Evenstar. In terms of lineages, there is a common source in the female line in Thingol and Melian, since Luthien was Thingol's daughter, Elwing was Luthien's daughter and Arwen was Elwing's granddaughter. Aragorn was descendent of Elendil, who was a descendent of Earendil and therefore is Elwing's great(x100ish!) grandson. Aragorn and Elwing are cousins several dozen times removed!

Beren was one of the original great heroes, from the house of Beor, and Earendil was a descendent of one of the other great mortal houses, Tuor.

There has never been a half-elven coupling of male elf and female human, as far as we know.

To bring back on topic, children of Elves and Humans were indeed half-elves, but nothing like BGIi half-elves. They must choose whether to live as human or live as an elf - there's no real intermingling, since they have different types of souls and different fates. Elrond chose to live as an elf, and so is immortal. His brother Elros chose to live as mortal and founded the Numenorean dynasty (Aragorn's lineage).

Final notes, for interest. The oldest living thing on Middle Earth, except for the Maiar (like Gandalf, Sauron & Tom Bombadil) is Galadriel. She is one of the few elves to have lived in Valinor (basically, Heaven) before the Kinslaying and the Sundering. Given that the date of the LotR is Third Age, 3019 and the 2nd Age lasted until 3441, that makes her well over 6500 years old (that's without any timescale for the 1st age) Elrond's children are by Celebrian, Galadriel's daughter.

p.s. OK, I admit, the dates in the last paragraph I looked up. Everything else is a sign of teenage years with my head in books

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:44 pm

We shall have to see about upgrading your jr. status, oh worthy one. Without fact checking, everything appears to be in order.

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 1:26 pm

Not too bad, I wasn't attempting to stump anyone, but well answered junior.

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Yet while Sauron wore the One his powers on earth were actually enhanced. Its powers were primarily of domination and control. He used the power of the Ring to rule whole peoples who worshipped him as a God-king. Through its use he could control the orcs, the trolls, the Haradrim, wargs, and his most feared servants the Ringwraiths. Because Sauron could already control the weather and the Fires of Mount Doom, these too would have been further enhanced to truly frightening levels if he had regained the One. With the One, his Eye would have seen every thought or action anywhere in Middle-earth; no secret could have been kept from him and no one could have withstood him. With the One, Sauron would have captured the Three Elven Rings and he would have used them to create Timeless evil in Middle-earth; all under the control of the One.

Mhr'djynn · Post by **Mhr'djynn** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 7:26 pm

@Waverly - I know what you mean. I am going to do my best to at least get through the trilogy before the first movie comes out. This way I can smugly and self-righteously comment "you know it wasn't like that in the book" until nobody will listen to me anymore

and now that I really think back, I realize that I didn't actually READ "The Hobbit" -- I had it on vinyl, a double-album I think it was, and judging by where I remember being when I used to listen to it, I must have gotten that record in the 1st or 2nd grade. Woo hoo. I really am looking forward to this. I wish that I still had that album, that would rule.

@foul - unfortunately the tolkien.cro.net link didn't seem to work. and, LOL!

@phil - hmm, even odder that I haven't heard of the film till now. i guess maybe i should stick my head outside of my little vacuum of single-player power every once in a while.

and finally: Cate Blanchett as Galadriel. YAY

Aegnor · Post by **Aegnor** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:22 am

From what I've heard, some of the casting seems very thoughtfully done. I can't imagine a better pick for Galadriel. But Uma Thurman as Eowyn? Isn't she a bit scrawny for a shieldmaiden? And Liv Tyler as Arwen....somebody please tell me this isn't so. She is NOT the way tto lure females into the theatre.

I heard a rumour, months ago, that Arwen is to replace one of the junior Hobbits in the Fellowship. My immediate thought was "if they do that I'll boycott the film." I wonder now if stronger measures aren't called for. Perhaps a bilingual petition (Common and Quenya) from all of us true fans, promising not only a boycott, but an internet media campaign to discourage the incognoscenti from seeing the movie as well.

Maybe even some picket lines....

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:26 am

Originally posted by Aegnor:
My immediate thought was "if they do that I'll boycott the film." I wonder now if stronger measures aren't called for. Perhaps a bilingual petition (Common and Quenya) from all of us true fans, promising not only a boycott, but an internet media campaign to discourage the incognoscenti from seeing the movie as well.

Maybe even some picket lines....

That'll put a *huge* dent in their profits

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:02 am

A woman in the fellowship? So much for male escapism fantasies

Liv Tyler:

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:15 am

The Book is fine as it is, besides I think that the people that have Tolkien(his family) rights will have a word in what is in the movie or not.
I know that the movie will have a dificult time to live up to Tolkien legacy but riwrighting the story is not the way to do it.
Besides whats arwen going to do? moral suport?

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Aegnor · Post by **Aegnor** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:22 am

I was thinking of ways to make Arwen's role stronger, and appealing to women. Maybe they could include several short interlude scenes showing her sewing that beautiful standard for Aragorn to carry into battle...

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:51 am

...or fixing well-balanced meals for the weary travelers around the campfire....

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:51 am

LOL