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Oh dear, we have a troll on the forum, remember folks, 'Don't feed the troll', just ignore RiseofBane

galraen wrote:Oh dear, we have a troll on the forum, remember folks, 'Don't feed the troll', just ignore RiseofBane

Troll or not i have to admit that thanks to him this has become one of the most hilarious threads here in a long time :laugh:

Daynov wrote:Troll or not i have to admit that thanks to him this has become one of the most hilarious threads here in a long time :laugh:

Maybe so, but the insulting, and ignorant nature of it's last post was a step too far. I actually started to make an angry reply, then realised that was exctly what it wanted. So from now on I'll be taking my own advice and ignoring it.

Rise of Bane, it is clear that you do not know what you're talking about.

Yes, the Flail of Ages +5 can kill casters faster than Gram the Sword of Grief +5. Why? Because the elemental damage goes through spell protections such as Iron Skins, or Stoneskin and occasionally even Mirror Image. Also, it helps you survive by mitigating the incoming damage through its Slow ability.

I have soloed the game with every class and kit at this point (after all, SoA has been out for ten years) and can safely say that a thief DOES NOT NEED BODYGUARDS. In fact, a fully buffed thief, or even better a bard (blade) are STRONGER than a fighter. Fully buffed by Blade has 210 hitpoints, eight images (free hits), twenty skins (free hits), immunity to every spell and then my choice of either -25AC or -17AC and maximum damage each attack and then another choice of 9 attacks per round and 25% physical resistance OR 7 attacks per round and 45% physical resistance and a bonus to AC.

The same is possible for a thief through the use of scrolls, which you don't really need because of his amazing hit and run tactics. Also, the Assassin can essentially immobilize enemies by constantly reapplying his Poison Weapon ability. So yes, bards and thieves can both survive the ENTIRE GAME alone, without any party assistance. As other members have stated, you can solo the game with ANY character. Also, a fully buffed thief can completely decimate a fighter. After all, they have the Assassination ability at hand, not to mention a whole arsenal of incredibly cheap traps. Every player has a different style and I like to use cunning in my fights, but yes, I do know for a fact that blades can charge in and slaughter everything while lasting longer than a fighter... and shooting spells at the same time. Also, while charging in and meleeing everything to death works in SoA and ToB, only a bard and a xx/mage can do it there.

White Dragon Scale is great for Barbarians and characters that can't use plate mail. It gives one of highest AC bonuses in the game. I have already stated why it's good. Not because of the cold resistance but because of the high AC it gives. If you complete Watcher's Keep in SoA, you can also get it as soon as you encounter Cespenar.

Don't you realize Fighter get special ability in ToB? Such as tornado, or death strike and so on. Sorry this is SOA forum, I was thinking about TOB.
In TOB, I am positive fighter > thief/bards

In SOA, I honestly didn't know much about the thief, but I bet Fighter can own thief so easily.
And if what you said is indeed right, I still don't want to accept it.
What the hell Thief is stronger than a fighter? Imoen is stronger than Minsc??? What kind of BULL **** IS THAT?! Even hamster will laugh at it

The comparison that I was providing was actually based on ToB. First of all Greater Deathblow only kills enemies which are below twelfth level, as such, the toughest opponents, such as your siblings as well as certain enemies you encounter at Watcher's Keep are unaffected, and they're the ones that count. As for Whirlwind, that ability is also available to the Swashbuckler kit who can achieve a greater AC than a warrior while at the same time having a constant resistance of 45%. Not to mention having all that while being able to use scrolls and blasting away with wands. Anyway, yes, the fighter classes have access to Greater Whirlwind which boosts their attack to ten a round, but the problem is that it last for only one round (seven seconds)! As such, in order to keep up with his attack speed, the fighter will need to stop attacking, perform the animation for Greater Whirlwind animation and continue attacking, all the while the bard is under the effects of Improved Haste, which lasts for 23 rounds (161 seconds or two minutes and forty seconds) at level 40. Then, the bard has an amazing AC as I mentioned before, and even when some attack gets through it, the bard will need to get hit about twenty eight times before actually starting to take damage. Now, let's not forget that the bard can recast these spells at will (unless using Tenser's Transformation), but even then, spells can be cast from scrolls or wands. I'd like to give a special mention Protection From Magical Weapons, which grands four rounds worth of immunity to attacks from enchanted weapons (which also happen to be the strongest ones available).

I'm not talking about NPC strength but actual character and class strength (but yes, if you level both of them up all the way, Imoen will be stronger than Minsc, but again, that's if she's properly buffed). Each character is different in the hands of a player. Like I said before, people have different playstyles and experiences, so I'm judging based on what I know of the game mechanics as well as my personal experience.

Even in SoA (without ToB installed), where the high level abilities are unavailable, a properly equipped thief can take on a fighter, given that they're not immune to backstab (barbarian). It's just that they need to rely on speed and their equipment more so than other characters. I know for sure that with their traps (which many people would agree in saying that they are overpowered), they would make more efficient monster-killers than fighters. Don't forget that they can deal very high damage through their backstabs and having the first strike on a spellcaster essentially puts them out of commission for good.

Maybe your are right. But you are talking about fully buffed thief, probably level 30 or above? It's very hard to achieve that level in SOA, unless u sleep in one place countlessly to kill monsters, or unless you CHeat, or unless you keep your party small number so it gives higher distributed experience for each member.

I ended up level 23 when I beat SOA, I had been sleeping countless times killing high level monsters at Underdark and Umar Hill or whatever. I also did EVERY SINGLE subquests to get experiences ( I even used walkthough).

Well until thief can reach that level, fighter > thief. I am not denying the max leveled or w/e thief can beat the figher. Therefore I think Fighter is stronger than theif if it's below level 30(or 25th w/e. U know better). And that's all I care. Yea I am aware the max leveled character such as monk can own fighter anytime. The reason I like fighter is they are the strongest character throughout the whole game , and generally noone will reach higher level than 25th in SOA. I also know Kensai-mage will be stronger than fighter because of magics they get and combined with figher ability, but they have to be reach high level and until then, they will have to take hard steps and assistance from the party.

And that's what exactly I don't like it. I don't like to keep my main character to hide/run all the time till he becomes the most strong Character in the world. Personally it ruins the fun

About trap and special ability of thief u mentioned, you are pretty much saying "mage has cloud kill and can wipe out monsters faster and effectively, therefore mage is better than figher". Well let me be clear. Sure thief can wipe out monsters quickly. But there's no melee fight using trap which is no fun. A hasted fighter with lots of protections (by potion or spell by fellow cleric/mage) can also wipe out monsters pretty quick and handy. But sure, maybe slower than a thief. But I just love melee fight for some reason.

Anyway I got a question. Would you prefer two-weapon styled fighter or 2-handed weapon style? According to what you said, two-weapon styled fighter with fast speeded weapons can kill the monsters faster. Well I also agree because the Drizzt pretty much owned my main character. When I play SOA again I want to try out dual-wielded fighter, maybe with scimitar(fastest sword I suppose).

Another question. I know backstab is really ridiculously strong. But when do thief get that ability? or is that a assasin's special ability? or both thief/assassin? and do you have to "hide" first in order to use backstab?

Well, if you look at my previous posts, I mentioned that I play the game solo, meaning that I only have the main character in the party. As such, I know that you can get to late twenties/early thirties by simply completing every single quest in Chapter 2. This is WITHOUT resting constantly to fight monsters.

Even if the thief doesn't have access to the high levels or abilities of ToB (thus being capped at level 21 for thieves, which translates to level 19 for fighters), he still has a lot of potions (Potion of Power for example) and items that grant him certain abilities (Ilbathra, Ring of Gaxx, etc.) or even let him to massive backstab damage (Staff of Striking, 1d6 + 9).

Again, as I mentioned before, all of my arguments come with the assumption that the character is alone, without ANY party support. I think that's the most fair way to compare the strength of a character.

The hit and run tactics aren't really there because the thief is weak, they're present through the entire game because in order to hide in shadows, the thief must leave the enemy's sight range.

The Kensai/Mage doesn't really have to reach a high level in order to compete with the fighter. The reason for this is that the Kensai already has good damage and THAC0 because of their kit bonus, not to mention the -2AC as well. Dual classing into a mage complements them by giving them more armor (Spirit Armor, ability to wear robes) and damage mitigation spells (Mirror Image, Stoneskin, ability to use Staff of the Magi) as well as more attack speed (Improved Haste) and of course overall fighting presence (Tenser's Transformation, Shapechange). By the time the Kensai/Mage hits the SoA cap of 2950000, he will be (again, the way I prefer to play him) a 13 Kensai/14 Mage. This IS possible to achieve before leaving chapter 2 with either no or about two other characters in your party.

In the previous posts, when I mentioned mages, I should have said that I almost always play them as melee fighters. Through their spells they can not only do as much damage as a fighter, attack as fast as a fighter (nine or ten attacks per round), but they can also protect themselves better (very low AC, damage mitigation spells and, in the case of the Greater Wolfwere form (under the effects of Improved Haste) have a 16 hitpoint per second regeneration.

Everyone is different in how they play, but personally, I like to have more attacks per round. If my character dual-wields, they can usually have a constant five attacks per round, where as a two-handed character would probably have three at most. This is most useful early game, before Whirlwind becomes available. Now, don't forget that by dual wielding you get the benefits of BOTH weapons (meaning passive effects). Anyway, a character with a two-handed weapon gets more benefit from the Whirlwind abilities (gaining about seven extra attacks whereas a dual-wielder would gain only five). Attacking more times with a two handed weapon only turns out to be more damaging in certain scenarios, such as when you're using Warblade +4 or Staff of the Ram +6, but other than that, a Katana has the same damage that a two-handed weapon has. Long story short, I like to dual-wield weapons because I prefer to use Improved Haste to boost myself to ten attacks per round and get some other, more useful high level ability. The only character that absolutely NEEDS the Whirlwind abilities is the Monk.

Backstabs are exclusive to the following classes (and kits): Thief (Thief, Bounty Hunter, Assassin (who gets x2 multiplier than everyone else) and Stalker (a ranger kit whose Backstab multiplier is capped at x3). All of these classes (with the exception of the Stalker who gains an increased multiplier of x2 at level 9) have access to backstab ability right from the start. To backstab, you need to hide in shadows OR be invisible, position yourself BEHIND your target and attack them. Backstabs only work with a weapons that a thief can use BEFORE dual-classing or multiclassing or the UAI ability. So no infinite backstabs with the Staff of the Magi or a two-handed sword.

Note that some creatures, such as skeletons and golems, are immune to backstabs and other creatures, such as demons can see characters while they're invisible.

This thread is awesome.

RiseofBane wrote:Crenshinibon learn the sarcasm please.
I said "are you ****ting me" because OBVIOUSLY I know weapon itself is what matters..

That's what we have these babies for chief, this is an international forum where a lot of posters don't have English for a first language, so we use the pretty pictures to help make our meaning clear. To be frank, anyone trying to argue that a berserker is the all-round strongest character against people who've been playing this game since it came out is either a troll as Galraen said - though I've quite enjoyed this thread and you're quite entertaining so I don't mind - or pig-ignorant, in which case it's a totally reasonable assumption that you might think barbarians get special axe bonuses or something.

RiseofBane wrote:But I don't like that pussi strategy, I am a pure fighter who runs directly to the monster and survives with high hitpoints.

:laugh: Dude, you have just won the Ode to a Grasshopper "Best Meat-Shield Candidate of the Year" Award. Screw strategy - [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU"]LEEEEEROY JENKIIINS![/url]
Also, you really would find NWN more your style, or maybe Diablo, hey.

RiseofBane wrote:In TOB, I am positive fighter > thief/bards

In SOA, I honestly didn't know much about the thief, but I bet Fighter can own thief so easily.
And if what you said is indeed right, I still don't want to accept it.
What the hell Thief is stronger than a fighter? Imoen is stronger than Minsc??? What kind of BULL **** IS THAT?! Even hamster will laugh at it

For people who actually know how to play the game Jan or Haer'Dalis can butcher Minsc - or Sarevok - without even breaking a sweat.
But in the interests of fairness, I think you using your berserker and Cren (if he can be bothered) using a Blade or whatever class he finds best should have a multiplayer one-on-one (or maybe 3-on-3 as a halfway between your full-party preference and his solo tendencies) death match, decked out with the best equipment with characters at the XP cap for SoA and ToB respectively. You should record it and put it on Youtube, so we can all laugh at the loser.

RiseofBane wrote:And if what you said is indeed right, I still don't want to accept it.

This has just made my favourite quote of the month.

First i thought this guy was a noob, then a troll, and then back to noob after his last post, hard to make up my mind, but maybe he's just so clever in his trolling that it baffles me.

Loved the quotes you picked Ode, those are made of Awesomesauce.

"Espcialy the Rage skill is what makes the berserker most worthy." -Especially when the berserkers don't get anything else.

"and they can wear those 2handed weapons which does x1000 more dmg and theif cant equip those" -Man...why can't my 2h weapons be that powerful?!...Well i guess that might ruin the fun.

"I know backstab is really ridiculously strong. But when do thief get that ability?" -Just like you know a fighter is more powerful than a thief or a bard, but you just don't know when.

"The reason I like fighter is they are the strongest character throughout the whole game" -WHAT?! They have a constant 25 strength throughout the entire game?! How could i not have noticed this?! Time to play a fighter then! CROM! HULK SMASH! ITS CLOBBERING TIME! I can't choose which battlecry to use though, so i use them all.

"Even hamster will laugh at it" -*snickers*

ok well ..
hate to admit but it seems thief or dual-wielded blade, seems to be stronger than the figher in SOA. (maybe not thief because I can cast truesight so thief can't backstab my fighter, and 1 backstab won't be able to kill my fighter becaause of high HP I have)
But in ToB, when I have Ram+6 or other strongest 2handed weapons, and when I use abilities such as Whirwind (to attack 10 per round which is equivalent to hasted dual wilders), or deathstrike w/e, I'm sure I can beat those dual-wielded fighers since I can do more damage, and higher critical strike.
And good point there, there is katana that does same damage as RAM+6, but don't forget Ram gives you massive poision damage also so you won't be able to beat me.
Cheers
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Like I stated before, both the thief and the blade have the ability to magically protect themselves from harm, or, to nullify the incoming damage completely, so while your fighter is whacking away with a damaging weapon, he's only hitting them after at least eighteen attacks... and that's assuming that he rolls high enough to bypass their amazing AC of -24.

A thief's stealth is NOT affected by True Sight and even then, the Cloak of Non-Detection protects against it. Also, a thief doesn't necessarily need to kill an opponent in one backstab. They have traps at their disposal or better yet, Assassination, which turns ALL of their attacks for one round into automatic backstabs.

Deathblow only affects enemies that are below a certain level - much lower than 40.

Critical hits have two effects - successful hit and double damage. The latter is nullified by wearing a helm, so I wouldn't count on it.

I didn't say that a Katana can do as much damage as the Staff of the Ram +6, only that it can do as much damage as an average or slightly above average two handed sword.

Staff of the Ram +6 does absolutely no poison damage and even then, poison immunity is VERY easy to come by.

Also, I'm almost positive that advertising is against forum rules.

ok I meant the Gram sword+5 w/e that is the strongest two handed sword in TOB which does lots of poision damage as special effect.
I was talking about 1 on 1 combat. If you will set traps, I can simply avoid those areas. I am thinking you are talking about PvM , in which case sure, thief might be able to wipe out monsters faster. But I am talking about PvP. On top of that, fighter gets a lot of abilities at high level like whirwin and a lot more. Using those abilities all combined, a pure thief will have hard time beating fighter unless he goes dual class mixed with fighter.. or mixed with mage to have "invunlerability against melee weapons" but let's exclude thief/mage bs here.
And doesnt it say "advertise with us" on the left side?

edit: also u can't use scroll unless ur using TuTu or some sort of mods, or unless ur going dual class as thief/mage... I don't use any mods im just using pure Baldur's gate2 installed.
Im talking about Pure thief vs Pure fighter 1v1 , at no mods.
and no, not level 40 vs 40.. to reach that level you need to solo or either cheat, im talking about level 30 or below. Because that's what you normally gets while adventuring the game with parties.
You can still try 1v1 at level 40 and see what happens.. And like I said, thief/mage wont count that's like having max leveled thief and mage combined.

If dual class is allowed in our argument , then I still doubt if thief/mage can defeat kansai/mage. I think it will depends on micro control by the both players.

For Gram, like I said before, poison immunity is very easy to come by.

The interesting thing about traps, that I noticed was a lot of them trigger when within the range of a monster, so a monster can be within several feet of a trap, and it will trigger, turn into an arrow (in the case of a spike trap) and hit them.

I ws talking about PvP this entire time as well. Like I said before, Whirlwind has a TINY duration, so it a character with Improved Haste would outlast them AND wouldn't need to spend any time recasting all those Whirlwinds. Then, a thief with Use Any Item can use scrolls and potions and pretty much any other piece of equipment in the game. Personally, when I play a thief, I hoard potions and buy all the spell scrolls only to save them for a tough fight later on.

I don't have TuTu installed or ANY mods installed. I'm running Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal with the latest patch. Thieves, through Use Any Item can use ALL scrolls in the game. Bards can use scrolls and wands from the very beginning.

You contacted GameBanshee through the email provided and got permission to advertise?

yes I did send email and got permission. Again this is the site.
http://www.caveofwonder.com/members/reg ... chief_swat

After all I think you are right, but I am originally from BG1 where fighters are the best pvper. I have to admit I was completely new to BG2, since I just started playing them about 2 month ago even though the last time I beat BG2 (with cheat) was back in 4-5 years ago.

Anyway in BG1, Fighter > Thief

Actually, in BG1, bards are the strongest character and Thieves still do the most damage! They can get a Staff of Striking (1d6 + 9)in the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion, which, on a backstab, gives them a damage range of 50 - 75. Double that if it happens to be a critical hit. Most of the potions I use are in BG1 as well.

Anyway, in BG1 a Bard is the strongest character, having the ability to fight, use scrolls, use wands and even backstab (but because they lack the stealth skill, you need to use either Invisibility, Improved Invisibility or a Potion of Invisibility first - note that there IS a Ring of Invisibility as well).

Crenshinibon wrote:Actually, in BG1, bards are the strongest character and Thieves still do the most damage! They can get a Staff of Striking (1d6 + 9)in the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion, which, on a backstab, gives them a damage range of 50 - 75. Double that if it happens to be a critical hit. Most of the potions I use are in BG1 as well.

Anyway, in BG1 a Bard is the strongest character, having the ability to fight, use scrolls, use wands and even backstab (but because they lack the stealth skill, you need to use either Invisibility, Improved Invisibility or a Potion of Invisibility first - note that there IS a Ring of Invisibility as well).

yea but 1 backstab won't just kill fighter. On top of that, while you are using scroll as a bard, I can hit and make you fail the casting spell.
You really have to 1v1 in real instead of talking here so we can actually know who will win.

I was assuming that the bard would start out buffed. Either way, wands have no cast time and have about a hundred charges to boot. Tazok couldn't save against the Wand of Paralyzation, why would a fighter?

Also, if backstabbing with a x5 multiplier and using the Staff of Striking, I *really* wouldn't doubt that one hit could kill a fighter. But that mostly depends on luck of the draw, but it's still possible. If not one hit then two for sure, with a potion of invisibility in between.

Try looking up the "Bards With Wands" document. It should really help you understand how powerful bards can be. From my experience, the three easiest characters to solo the game with are Bards tied with Mage/Thief and then Thieves.

imho in bg2 fighter types would be at a distinct disadvantage vs thieves and or bards, the fighter class is just too limited, and has little defense vs stealth / traps / spells.

yeah *if* the fight breaks down into a simple boxing match the fighter wins easy, but no rogue worth his salt would allow themselves to get dragged into that.

either way it is sort of besides the point of a game like bg2, each class has a specific role to fill and certain situations where they can shine.

It all depends on when the boxing match starts though. If we're going all out hackslash, no abilities whatsoever, then a fighter would be a to defeat most characters (with the exception of a Barbarian).

If the bard is allowed to buff himself up, then it would undoubtedly win a full on melee fight, even if the fighter spams his or her abilities. That goes double for a mage.

But then again, sorcerers and mages shine everywhere. xD

But for me, the real point is that while bards are way up there with the most powerful classes, they're also very fun to play.